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Replying To Fairplayalways: "the problem too is all these games now the novelty is gone off them, and this time next year no one will remember the game you mention above...I dont like these outside teams in Leinster at all, Leinster was poor and Kilkenny have destroyed it over last 20 years...something had to be done, but turning Leinster into the "Lidl" of the championship where bargain games could be got might have done alot for the counties outside playing in Leinster but has it improved Leinster counties hurling????far from it, its worse with Offaly and Laois not playing in it under the current format...Munster might be stronger but it should be pro rata or even every three years the outside counties switch province...Leinster is more like a shopping list now, so many tiers to it I gave up looking a long time ago...all I know is Kilkenny and Galway will be probably vying for a title, and as I say, has that done anything at all for Leinster, not that I see...." Wexford have been in 33% of leinster finals in the last 6 years.
I expect a leinster title is our goal this year which is perfectly achievable
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2695 - 13/04/2023 13:43:10
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Replying To Viking66: "For sure. Laois have won an AI hurling title. Their clubs have won 2 Leinster club titles and reached 11 more. Offaly clubs have won 13 from 27 appearances,which is far more than Wexford clubs have achieved. There is absolutely no reason, given proper promotion of the game in schools and non hurling clubs, why Offaly and Laois shouldn't be more competitive again.
Antrim likewise. The game needs to be grown in Belfast though.
Kildare and Meath have huge hurling playing numbers. Probably lack of enough quality coaching, and dare I say it hurling tradition within families there, is holding them back.
Westmeath like Antrim probably need to get more hurling played in schools, especially in urban areas, hard though that will be to achieve.
Carlow and Kerry likewise have to overcome a small playing population some way or another, starting I suppose in schools and clubs in non hurling areas." It's very interesting to look at the number of adult hurling teams (not clubs) registered in each county. For 2021-22 the figures were as follows for the first and second tier counties:
Cork 210
Tipperary 133
Dublin 128
Galway 111
Kilkenny 108
Wexford 96
Limerick 94
Waterford 83
Clare 80
Laois 56
Offaly 49
Antrim 47
Meath 45
Kildare 32
Westmeath 31
Kerry 25
Down 22
Carlow 18
This is more useful than a club breakdown because team sizes are likely to be fairly similar in each county. "Super clubs" like Cuala obviously have more adult hurling teams than a rural club in Offaly but each team probably has a fairly similar pick of players.
What's interesting is that Laois, Offaly and Antrim aren't a million miles behind Clare and Waterford when it comes to players. It's a ratio of 2:1 or less, whereas Cork has 2.5 times more hurlers than Clare and Waterford. Obviously, these stats show that pick isn't the key issue when it comes to performance, otherwise Cork would be dominating. Limerick are only 7th and yet they are dominating at the minute. Dublin have the third highest pick but are achieving little. There's all sorts of reasons for these facts I'm sure.
Báireoir (Dublin) - Posts: 80 - 13/04/2023 13:46:01
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Replying To zinny: "I agree with you but when you say the GAA - who are you talking about? Croke Park GAA or the individual top tier counties? All of these counties look after their own interests and within the counties clubs look after their own interests. Democracy is a great thing but rarely brings about real change as vested interests prevent change from happening. Has any team in Munster got anything to fear by allowing Kerry into the Munster championship and saying they would play all their games against them in Killarney? Leinster is no different although the gap between the 4th lower teams is not perhaps as big. Lip service to development of lower tier is what the top counties give and that won't change however what gets to me is that, they do not make up the majority of the votes but seem to be able to veto change and that is because too often what we see at congress is that Football counties defer to the top tier and visa versa when it comes to Football issues. Which also means that the County Boards of these football counties couldn't care less about Hurling. Everyone looks out for their own." Munster are a disgrace really -Kerry Minors have to travel to Leinster to get a game, what a joke and what a message to be sending to Kerry players. Pat them on the back and talk out of the side of their mouth but deep down couldn't care less as long as their sacred Munster is preserved.
The reverence of the Munster Championship is sickening at times. Same with the Harty Cup, Leinster teams have a much better record but about 1/10th of the coverage and "prestige". Drives me mad.
LarryOBrother (Wexford) - Posts: 409 - 13/04/2023 14:11:05
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Replying To Báireoir: "It's very interesting to look at the number of adult hurling teams (not clubs) registered in each county. For 2021-22 the figures were as follows for the first and second tier counties:
Cork 210
Tipperary 133
Dublin 128
Galway 111
Kilkenny 108
Wexford 96
Limerick 94
Waterford 83
Clare 80
Laois 56
Offaly 49
Antrim 47
Meath 45
Kildare 32
Westmeath 31
Kerry 25
Down 22
Carlow 18
This is more useful than a club breakdown because team sizes are likely to be fairly similar in each county. "Super clubs" like Cuala obviously have more adult hurling teams than a rural club in Offaly but each team probably has a fairly similar pick of players.
What's interesting is that Laois, Offaly and Antrim aren't a million miles behind Clare and Waterford when it comes to players. It's a ratio of 2:1 or less, whereas Cork has 2.5 times more hurlers than Clare and Waterford. Obviously, these stats show that pick isn't the key issue when it comes to performance, otherwise Cork would be dominating. Limerick are only 7th and yet they are dominating at the minute. Dublin have the third highest pick but are achieving little. There's all sorts of reasons for these facts I'm sure." I've always believed Carlow hurlers, pound for pound, are likely the best in the country. How they remain competitive with such small numbers is amazing.
The bottom four on that list are definitely punching well above their weight.
I also thought that Meath should be performing better as a hurling county although I imagine it is difficult for dual counties to function properly since there's likely a bias one way or the other.
Meath definitely not kicking too many shapes in the football these day and perhaps they should consider the alternative.
35OLT (USA) - Posts: 90 - 13/04/2023 15:08:22
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Replying To Báireoir: "It's very interesting to look at the number of adult hurling teams (not clubs) registered in each county. For 2021-22 the figures were as follows for the first and second tier counties:
Cork 210
Tipperary 133
Dublin 128
Galway 111
Kilkenny 108
Wexford 96
Limerick 94
Waterford 83
Clare 80
Laois 56
Offaly 49
Antrim 47
Meath 45
Kildare 32
Westmeath 31
Kerry 25
Down 22
Carlow 18
This is more useful than a club breakdown because team sizes are likely to be fairly similar in each county. "Super clubs" like Cuala obviously have more adult hurling teams than a rural club in Offaly but each team probably has a fairly similar pick of players.
What's interesting is that Laois, Offaly and Antrim aren't a million miles behind Clare and Waterford when it comes to players. It's a ratio of 2:1 or less, whereas Cork has 2.5 times more hurlers than Clare and Waterford. Obviously, these stats show that pick isn't the key issue when it comes to performance, otherwise Cork would be dominating. Limerick are only 7th and yet they are dominating at the minute. Dublin have the third highest pick but are achieving little. There's all sorts of reasons for these facts I'm sure." Dublin might have a lot of adult teams but as you know doubt are aware, the standard outside of the top seniors is not very high. So the pool is not that big really when it comes to quality.
Fact is that hurling is not treated with the same seriousness in Dublin as in the leading counties. That is unlikely to change and the conundrum is that a sizeable proportion of the underage hurlers picked for development squads also play football, so straight away hurling is not getting their undivided attention.
Same must be multiplied in counties like Kildare, Meath and Kerry just to pick three other traditional football counties, as they have smaller numbers anyway.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2584 - 13/04/2023 15:14:55
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Replying To 35OLT: "I've always believed Carlow hurlers, pound for pound, are likely the best in the country. How they remain competitive with such small numbers is amazing.
The bottom four on that list are definitely punching well above their weight.
I also thought that Meath should be performing better as a hurling county although I imagine it is difficult for dual counties to function properly since there's likely a bias one way or the other.
Meath definitely not kicking too many shapes in the football these day and perhaps they should consider the alternative." And when you consider what Mount Leinster Rangers achieved over the years, Carlow hurling has definitely got the absolute maximum out of their small resources.
Past hurler (None) - Posts: 736 - 13/04/2023 21:25:18
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Dublin might have a lot of adult teams but as you know doubt are aware, the standard outside of the top seniors is not very high. So the pool is not that big really when it comes to quality.
Fact is that hurling is not treated with the same seriousness in Dublin as in the leading counties. That is unlikely to change and the conundrum is that a sizeable proportion of the underage hurlers picked for development squads also play football, so straight away hurling is not getting their undivided attention.
Same must be multiplied in counties like Kildare, Meath and Kerry just to pick three other traditional football counties, as they have smaller numbers anyway." Yeah, its not a new problem Barney and it was the same 30 years ago.
Its an impossible one to fix because football has all the trappings of being a Dublin footballer which hurling unfortunately doesn't.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1138 - 14/04/2023 10:59:44
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Replying To Doylerwex: "Wexford have been in 33% of leinster finals in the last 6 years.
I expect a leinster title is our goal this year which is perfectly achievable" Oh it is achieveable of that I have no doubt, but based on league its hard to see that happening (I hope ye do by the way!) I think Leinster is diluted/polluted (not in a toxic way but you know what I mean) with all these outside counties..God be with the days when you would remember a Leinster semi final let alone a final pairing, other than Kilkenny really now very few can go back and list last say 10 Leinster finalists in hurling...
Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 14/04/2023 11:36:34
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Replying To Fairplayalways: "Oh it is achieveable of that I have no doubt, but based on league its hard to see that happening (I hope ye do by the way!) I think Leinster is diluted/polluted (not in a toxic way but you know what I mean) with all these outside counties..God be with the days when you would remember a Leinster semi final let alone a final pairing, other than Kilkenny really now very few can go back and list last say 10 Leinster finalists in hurling..." I would say there is a better chance of Wexford or Dublin winning a provincial championship than any Munster county other than Limerick winning one - they are streets ahead of them all and the results in the MHC will shine an even brighter light on this uncomfortable truth.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1138 - 14/04/2023 12:30:39
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Replying To Fairplayalways: "Oh it is achieveable of that I have no doubt, but based on league its hard to see that happening (I hope ye do by the way!) I think Leinster is diluted/polluted (not in a toxic way but you know what I mean) with all these outside counties..God be with the days when you would remember a Leinster semi final let alone a final pairing, other than Kilkenny really now very few can go back and list last say 10 Leinster finalists in hurling..." It's sad to see but was certainly needed.
I think in 05 it got to a point that wexford and kk couldn't meet until the final and they were hammering us all then.
Galway have helped to improve the championship no doubt. Dublin were coming anyway to be fair to them.
For us not being in the final from 08 to 17 was crazy.
I was used to going to leinster finals every year.
Depressingly only saw us win 4 though
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2695 - 14/04/2023 13:34:05
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Replying To Báireoir: "It's very interesting to look at the number of adult hurling teams (not clubs) registered in each county. For 2021-22 the figures were as follows for the first and second tier counties:
Cork 210
Tipperary 133
Dublin 128
Galway 111
Kilkenny 108
Wexford 96
Limerick 94
Waterford 83
Clare 80
Laois 56
Offaly 49
Antrim 47
Meath 45
Kildare 32
Westmeath 31
Kerry 25
Down 22
Carlow 18
This is more useful than a club breakdown because team sizes are likely to be fairly similar in each county. "Super clubs" like Cuala obviously have more adult hurling teams than a rural club in Offaly but each team probably has a fairly similar pick of players.
What's interesting is that Laois, Offaly and Antrim aren't a million miles behind Clare and Waterford when it comes to players. It's a ratio of 2:1 or less, whereas Cork has 2.5 times more hurlers than Clare and Waterford. Obviously, these stats show that pick isn't the key issue when it comes to performance, otherwise Cork would be dominating. Limerick are only 7th and yet they are dominating at the minute. Dublin have the third highest pick but are achieving little. There's all sorts of reasons for these facts I'm sure." Westmeath has 14 hurling clubs which will only decrease as many clubs are now amalgamating at under age level due to playing numbers.
dakid (Australia) - Posts: 285 - 14/04/2023 14:19:21
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Replying To 35OLT: "I've always believed Carlow hurlers, pound for pound, are likely the best in the country. How they remain competitive with such small numbers is amazing.
The bottom four on that list are definitely punching well above their weight.
I also thought that Meath should be performing better as a hurling county although I imagine it is difficult for dual counties to function properly since there's likely a bias one way or the other.
Meath definitely not kicking too many shapes in the football these day and perhaps they should consider the alternative." Absolutely, Carlow deserve serious credit for being where they are given those numbers
Báireoir (Dublin) - Posts: 80 - 14/04/2023 14:24:21
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Dublin might have a lot of adult teams but as you know doubt are aware, the standard outside of the top seniors is not very high. So the pool is not that big really when it comes to quality.
Fact is that hurling is not treated with the same seriousness in Dublin as in the leading counties. That is unlikely to change and the conundrum is that a sizeable proportion of the underage hurlers picked for development squads also play football, so straight away hurling is not getting their undivided attention.
Same must be multiplied in counties like Kildare, Meath and Kerry just to pick three other traditional football counties, as they have smaller numbers anyway." That's definitely true in Dublin sadly. I don't think it applies in Kerry though, because most of their hurlers are drawn from clubs in North Kerry where hurling is very strong, a bit like the situation with the Glens of Antrim and the Ards peninsula in Down. Someone from the Kingdom might correct me on this but I don't think there are too many dual clubs in Kerry.
Báireoir (Dublin) - Posts: 80 - 14/04/2023 14:26:27
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Replying To Báireoir: "That's an interesting idea for a format but it seems a bit overly complicated, especially straight away.
How about playing the provincial championships early in the season in place of the Walsh Cup and Munster SHL. There's currently 8 teams in the Walsh Cup (incl. Galway and Antrim), 5 in the Kehoe Cup (incl. Down) and 6 in the Munster SHL. Surely it would work to have a two tier Leinster competition and single tier Munster competition played in January/February, based on the format currently used for the Walsh Cup/Kehoe Cup and Munster SHL. The Munster SHL already attracts healthy crowds despite being a relatively unimportant competition so I think placing the provincial championships here would be perfectly fine.
This could be followed by the National League with a 16-team Division 1 split into two groups with the top team in each group advancing to the league final and the bottom team in each group either being relegated or going into a relegation play-off. There'd be plenty of time to play this in February-April, as it would have the same number of fixtures as the football league.
For the All-Ireland championship you could create four seedings based on the League, with the 1-2 teams promoted from Division 2 replacing the 1-2 relegated from Division 1. Draw the 16 teams into 4 groups of 4, with each team playing each other either once or twice. The top two in each group advance into quarter finals. You could also place the bottom two in each group into a shield competition (the Joe McDonagh Cup?) to ensure their seasons continued. This would give the top tier and second teir teams the same number of matches and a balance of games against first and second tier opposition. This could be played from April/May-July.
This format would serve all of the counties, in my opinion, and it would also fit into the current split season, at least with a few tweaks." Check out Johnny Kelly's two 8s as well.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 14/04/2023 21:59:47
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Replying To Báireoir: "It's very interesting to look at the number of adult hurling teams (not clubs) registered in each county. For 2021-22 the figures were as follows for the first and second tier counties:
Cork 210
Tipperary 133
Dublin 128
Galway 111
Kilkenny 108
Wexford 96
Limerick 94
Waterford 83
Clare 80
Laois 56
Offaly 49
Antrim 47
Meath 45
Kildare 32
Westmeath 31
Kerry 25
Down 22
Carlow 18
This is more useful than a club breakdown because team sizes are likely to be fairly similar in each county. "Super clubs" like Cuala obviously have more adult hurling teams than a rural club in Offaly but each team probably has a fairly similar pick of players.
What's interesting is that Laois, Offaly and Antrim aren't a million miles behind Clare and Waterford when it comes to players. It's a ratio of 2:1 or less, whereas Cork has 2.5 times more hurlers than Clare and Waterford. Obviously, these stats show that pick isn't the key issue when it comes to performance, otherwise Cork would be dominating. Limerick are only 7th and yet they are dominating at the minute. Dublin have the third highest pick but are achieving little. There's all sorts of reasons for these facts I'm sure." Carlow have only 18 adult teams across all divisions? If that's accurate then that's extremely impressive.
tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 16/04/2023 08:26:14
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Replying To tiobraid: "Carlow have only 18 adult teams across all divisions? If that's accurate then that's extremely impressive." 18 teams of which some would be a clubs 3rd team at junior level so what we have done at times over the last 10 - 15 years has been even more impressive.
On carlows day our first 15 will hold there own it's when our strength in depth is tested is where we struggle but we have been using the league to breed new hurlers this year and showed against Kildare. Brought back our top guns with a rest and played boys who had a few games under there belt and dare I say produced our best performance for many years.
Unfortunately I think our days may be numbered looking at recent underage results and inability to beat teams of our own standard and teams we would have seen as a level below at times. Don't get me wrong great to see other counties putting in the work and getting results also hopefully we can have a good mcdonagh cup and get a day in croker at the end of it.
ITSCHOLAR (Carlow) - Posts: 292 - 16/04/2023 14:38:49
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Replying To Báireoir: "It's very interesting to look at the number of adult hurling teams (not clubs) registered in each county. For 2021-22 the figures were as follows for the first and second tier counties:
Cork 210
Tipperary 133
Dublin 128
Galway 111
Kilkenny 108
Wexford 96
Limerick 94
Waterford 83
Clare 80
Laois 56
Offaly 49
Antrim 47
Meath 45
Kildare 32
Westmeath 31
Kerry 25
Down 22
Carlow 18
This is more useful than a club breakdown because team sizes are likely to be fairly similar in each county. "Super clubs" like Cuala obviously have more adult hurling teams than a rural club in Offaly but each team probably has a fairly similar pick of players.
What's interesting is that Laois, Offaly and Antrim aren't a million miles behind Clare and Waterford when it comes to players. It's a ratio of 2:1 or less, whereas Cork has 2.5 times more hurlers than Clare and Waterford. Obviously, these stats show that pick isn't the key issue when it comes to performance, otherwise Cork would be dominating. Limerick are only 7th and yet they are dominating at the minute. Dublin have the third highest pick but are achieving little. There's all sorts of reasons for these facts I'm sure." Do you have a breakdown of grades of teams? I do know most of the teams in Wexford are Junior or worse.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12053 - 17/04/2023 07:49:27
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Replying To Viking66: "Do you have a breakdown of grades of teams? I do know most of the teams in Wexford are Junior or worse." For Offaly, this years championship teams are broken down as follows. Note Intermediate is called Senior B in Offaly, as it sounds better!
There are a lot of clubs that field 2 or 3 teams from small populations, Seir Kieran for example has a population of about 450, so probably a male population of playing age of around 100 - they field three teams.
While I agree with Báireoir (Dublin) that you can't compare Counties by Club numbers, I also think comparing Counties by teams does not give a true indication of the number of potential quality players. If you have a club with a population of 10,000, that fields 3 team, there is a much better chance that the 2nd and 3rd teams are going to have some quality players, than a club with a population of 1,000.
Senior 10
Intermediate 6
Junior 8
Junior B 11
Junior C 13
TOTAL 48
Firceall (Offaly) - Posts: 20 - 17/04/2023 11:43:25
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Replying To Viking66: "Do you have a breakdown of grades of teams? I do know most of the teams in Wexford are Junior or worse." Can answer that one myself by saying those figures are always included in the annual reports from Croke Park, and no, they don't include a breakdown of what grade the teams operate at. They just give a total figure for number of teams in each county.
"Junior or worse" sounds bad at first, but when you think about it, it's probably par for the course. For example, in Wexford the breakdown would be:
Senior - 12
Intermediate - 12
Intermediate 'A' - 12
Junior - 12
Junior 'A' - 12
Junior 'B' - the rest - 36, going on last year's numbers - run on a District basis across the four Districts.
So yeah, 60 out of 96 are "Junior or worse". But probably the same in every other county. You'd expect every club with a team in the top grade or two to have at least one other team in the lower grades, but it doesn't work the other way round.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2254 - 17/04/2023 12:44:33
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Can answer that one myself by saying those figures are always included in the annual reports from Croke Park, and no, they don't include a breakdown of what grade the teams operate at. They just give a total figure for number of teams in each county.
"Junior or worse" sounds bad at first, but when you think about it, it's probably par for the course. For example, in Wexford the breakdown would be:
Senior - 12
Intermediate - 12
Intermediate 'A' - 12
Junior - 12
Junior 'A' - 12
Junior 'B' - the rest - 36, going on last year's numbers - run on a District basis across the four Districts.
So yeah, 60 out of 96 are "Junior or worse". But probably the same in every other county. You'd expect every club with a team in the top grade or two to have at least one other team in the lower grades, but it doesn't work the other way round." No Pikeman 72 teams here are Junior or worse. Intermediate A is Junior really. Basically we only have 6 more teams playing Senior or Intermediate than Offaly. Around the same as Antrim too. Laois also would have nearly the same. We don't have the huge pick advantage over the middle tier counties for our Senior hurlers the OPs stats would imply.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12053 - 17/04/2023 14:33:22
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