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I'm seeing more of what appear to be attempts to deliberately injure players in IC football. I'm not naive, there's always been an element of this going on but some of the ones that aren't getting spotted as very dangerous and harmful fouls include these-
1 High fielding - the player catching the high ball gets pulled hard backwards on the shoulders or arms so that they fall to the ground with all force on to their back - with their feet now taken from under them they're now taking all the impact on their spine. It has taken some players out with prolonged injuries and I've seen one opponent do it with such regularity that it looks premeditated. This will end up with a life changing injury if refs and GAA don't come down very hard on this foul.
2 Block down follow through - a player shoots for a score, it's typically a key forward targeted with this one, the defender makes the dive to block the shot but were in reality never going to get the block in on time, but come in with all their weight and full force on to the shooters kicking leg, which at the angle it's at from kicking is prone for a knee injury from the sudden downward force on the knee. To the red, the defender just looks like they've slightly mistimed and overcooked the block down attempt but in truth they know exactly what they're doing. It's been happening in the league. Needs to be watched for by refs.
3 Third man tackle - still going on and hard to spot when play transitions quickly. Runner is taken out blindly by free defender, often dangerously to the chest. A collar bone special.
4 Eyes - player bending / diving in to pick low ball or ball off the deck, gets raked across the face by swarm defence. When there's a load of defenders around a player picking such a ball, it ends up in a small ruck that obscures the ref's view and the guy on the ground gets hit and raked multiple times with flailing hands seemingly tackling fairly. Almost always ends in free against the ball winner for overcarrying.
There are others I'm not thinking of at the moment. Something needs to happen on some or all of these to protect players and fairness.
togoutlads (Galway) - Posts: 903 - 28/03/2023 12:42:34
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Any specific instances of these?
Claretandblue (Westmeath) - Posts: 1489 - 28/03/2023 17:04:39
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Replying To togoutlads: "I'm seeing more of what appear to be attempts to deliberately injure players in IC football. I'm not naive, there's always been an element of this going on but some of the ones that aren't getting spotted as very dangerous and harmful fouls include these-
1 High fielding - the player catching the high ball gets pulled hard backwards on the shoulders or arms so that they fall to the ground with all force on to their back - with their feet now taken from under them they're now taking all the impact on their spine. It has taken some players out with prolonged injuries and I've seen one opponent do it with such regularity that it looks premeditated. This will end up with a life changing injury if refs and GAA don't come down very hard on this foul.
2 Block down follow through - a player shoots for a score, it's typically a key forward targeted with this one, the defender makes the dive to block the shot but were in reality never going to get the block in on time, but come in with all their weight and full force on to the shooters kicking leg, which at the angle it's at from kicking is prone for a knee injury from the sudden downward force on the knee. To the red, the defender just looks like they've slightly mistimed and overcooked the block down attempt but in truth they know exactly what they're doing. It's been happening in the league. Needs to be watched for by refs.
3 Third man tackle - still going on and hard to spot when play transitions quickly. Runner is taken out blindly by free defender, often dangerously to the chest. A collar bone special.
4 Eyes - player bending / diving in to pick low ball or ball off the deck, gets raked across the face by swarm defence. When there's a load of defenders around a player picking such a ball, it ends up in a small ruck that obscures the ref's view and the guy on the ground gets hit and raked multiple times with flailing hands seemingly tackling fairly. Almost always ends in free against the ball winner for overcarrying.
There are others I'm not thinking of at the moment. Something needs to happen on some or all of these to protect players and fairness." Yes refs need to prevent incidents like that but how are they informed about changes in practice and how are they trained?
That needs to change as well to help with this.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 28/03/2023 17:42:45
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Replying To togoutlads: "I'm seeing more of what appear to be attempts to deliberately injure players in IC football. I'm not naive, there's always been an element of this going on but some of the ones that aren't getting spotted as very dangerous and harmful fouls include these-
1 High fielding - the player catching the high ball gets pulled hard backwards on the shoulders or arms so that they fall to the ground with all force on to their back - with their feet now taken from under them they're now taking all the impact on their spine. It has taken some players out with prolonged injuries and I've seen one opponent do it with such regularity that it looks premeditated. This will end up with a life changing injury if refs and GAA don't come down very hard on this foul.
2 Block down follow through - a player shoots for a score, it's typically a key forward targeted with this one, the defender makes the dive to block the shot but were in reality never going to get the block in on time, but come in with all their weight and full force on to the shooters kicking leg, which at the angle it's at from kicking is prone for a knee injury from the sudden downward force on the knee. To the red, the defender just looks like they've slightly mistimed and overcooked the block down attempt but in truth they know exactly what they're doing. It's been happening in the league. Needs to be watched for by refs.
3 Third man tackle - still going on and hard to spot when play transitions quickly. Runner is taken out blindly by free defender, often dangerously to the chest. A collar bone special.
4 Eyes - player bending / diving in to pick low ball or ball off the deck, gets raked across the face by swarm defence. When there's a load of defenders around a player picking such a ball, it ends up in a small ruck that obscures the ref's view and the guy on the ground gets hit and raked multiple times with flailing hands seemingly tackling fairly. Almost always ends in free against the ball winner for overcarrying.
There are others I'm not thinking of at the moment. Something needs to happen on some or all of these to protect players and fairness." Refs do need to watch out for these but is the training they receive good enough to help them if they are missing things?
It cant just be refs needing to spot these but GAA take a hard line against coaches and teams if it appears to be a coached tactic to do such actions.
Refs have 2 linesmen and 4 umpires. they need to do more to assist refs make decisions
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 28/03/2023 20:07:30
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Replying To togoutlads: "I'm seeing more of what appear to be attempts to deliberately injure players in IC football. I'm not naive, there's always been an element of this going on but some of the ones that aren't getting spotted as very dangerous and harmful fouls include these-
1 High fielding - the player catching the high ball gets pulled hard backwards on the shoulders or arms so that they fall to the ground with all force on to their back - with their feet now taken from under them they're now taking all the impact on their spine. It has taken some players out with prolonged injuries and I've seen one opponent do it with such regularity that it looks premeditated. This will end up with a life changing injury if refs and GAA don't come down very hard on this foul.
2 Block down follow through - a player shoots for a score, it's typically a key forward targeted with this one, the defender makes the dive to block the shot but were in reality never going to get the block in on time, but come in with all their weight and full force on to the shooters kicking leg, which at the angle it's at from kicking is prone for a knee injury from the sudden downward force on the knee. To the red, the defender just looks like they've slightly mistimed and overcooked the block down attempt but in truth they know exactly what they're doing. It's been happening in the league. Needs to be watched for by refs.
3 Third man tackle - still going on and hard to spot when play transitions quickly. Runner is taken out blindly by free defender, often dangerously to the chest. A collar bone special.
4 Eyes - player bending / diving in to pick low ball or ball off the deck, gets raked across the face by swarm defence. When there's a load of defenders around a player picking such a ball, it ends up in a small ruck that obscures the ref's view and the guy on the ground gets hit and raked multiple times with flailing hands seemingly tackling fairly. Almost always ends in free against the ball winner for overcarrying.
There are others I'm not thinking of at the moment. Something needs to happen on some or all of these to protect players and fairness." If you want that crack to start do you want it to go like ladies sport non-contact?
Breffniboys (Cavan) - Posts: 14 - 28/03/2023 20:44:01
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Replying To Claretandblue: "Any specific instances of these?" Plenty of instances but I've deliberately left that out as it invariably ends up on this forum as a 'well yer lad did this to our lad and that was far worse' kind of childish debate. I just want to start some discussion around the dangerous fouls and what appear to be deliberate attempts to injure that have entered the game.
togoutlads (Galway) - Posts: 903 - 29/03/2023 07:40:11
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Replying To Breffniboys: "If you want that crack to start do you want it to go like ladies sport non-contact?" Contact is needed and helps make the game but the scenarios I outlined a clearly beyond standard, clean hits contact. They're targeted and often a cowardly way of trying to take key players out of a game. I'm pretty sure you know exactly what I mean!
togoutlads (Galway) - Posts: 903 - 29/03/2023 09:26:42
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Replying To KillingFields: "Refs do need to watch out for these but is the training they receive good enough to help them if they are missing things?
It cant just be refs needing to spot these but GAA take a hard line against coaches and teams if it appears to be a coached tactic to do such actions.
Refs have 2 linesmen and 4 umpires. they need to do more to assist refs make decisions" I agree…. No other field sport has as many officials ( 7 ) but they still miss a lot of off the ball stuff… absolutely bonkers
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1928 - 29/03/2023 10:08:47
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TMO.....1 minute to make up a decision. Or else, sin-bin the player pending TMO decision.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1128 - 29/03/2023 10:33:25
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "I agree…. No other field sport has as many officials ( 7 ) but they still miss a lot of off the ball stuff… absolutely bonkers" do you ref yourself?
heyday (Laois) - Posts: 35 - 29/03/2023 10:52:42
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "TMO.....1 minute to make up a decision. Or else, sin-bin the player pending TMO decision." You dont add a TMO until you fix what on field officials can do a lot more.
Improve training umpires, ,linesmen and referees get at every level. dont add another official without improving training the existing officials get
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 29/03/2023 11:11:31
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Replying To KillingFields: "You dont add a TMO until you fix what on field officials can do a lot more.
Improve training umpires, ,linesmen and referees get at every level. dont add another official without improving training the existing officials get" But they are guessing no matter how eagle-eyed they are. Like the smack from the Cork player looked nothing until the replay showed he got it in the side of the head.
By the time the referee chatted to his 2 buddies, the TMO could have had a decision based on replay rather than guesswork.
I know which I prefer.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1128 - 29/03/2023 14:56:02
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A TMO for what categories of foul?
Claretandblue (Westmeath) - Posts: 1489 - 29/03/2023 15:22:46
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Replying To heyday: "do you ref yourself?" What has that got to do with it…? I am simply pointing out that there is enough officials around a pitch to miss very little if anything… You have a real love for incompetence yourself by the sound of you.. you would make a good referee…!!!
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1928 - 29/03/2023 18:15:06
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Replying To togoutlads: "Contact is needed and helps make the game but the scenarios I outlined a clearly beyond standard, clean hits contact. They're targeted and often a cowardly way of trying to take key players out of a game. I'm pretty sure you know exactly what I mean!" Great response and I agree with your post. Yes without pointing fingers as many counties guilty but cowardly and thuggish beheavour should be deal with very firmly indeed.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3676 - 29/03/2023 19:15:59
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "But they are guessing no matter how eagle-eyed they are. Like the smack from the Cork player looked nothing until the replay showed he got it in the side of the head.
By the time the referee chatted to his 2 buddies, the TMO could have had a decision based on replay rather than guesswork.
I know which I prefer." For what kind of fouls do you use a TMO for?
a television match official will only be at a tiny percentage of games yet what i propose will help every game and is far more necessary.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 29/03/2023 21:05:09
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Replying To KillingFields: "For what kind of fouls do you use a TMO for?
a television match official will only be at a tiny percentage of games yet what i propose will help every game and is far more necessary." But there were 5 sets of eyes on the Cork corner back, referee, 2 umpires, 2 linesmen. And while they were talking, everybody watching the game knew he had hit Drennan in the head and they still came up with the wrong decision because in real time, it didn't look too bad. You just cannot rely on the officials to get these decisions right all the time in real time.
Why not have a 4th official call the referee and say "I have it on replay" and call the ref over. It would be no slower than going in to ask the umpire.
What kind of fouls? Serious foul play, striking with the hurl, off the ball incidents, etc and only where a video replay has it to show the ref. I would say a 4th official can call a referees attention to an incident whenever he wants if something happens off the ball that he thinks the ref needs to deal with.
We want the right decisions, not the best guess decision. Help the referee out for god sake.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1128 - 31/03/2023 13:57:41
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "But there were 5 sets of eyes on the Cork corner back, referee, 2 umpires, 2 linesmen. And while they were talking, everybody watching the game knew he had hit Drennan in the head and they still came up with the wrong decision because in real time, it didn't look too bad. You just cannot rely on the officials to get these decisions right all the time in real time.
Why not have a 4th official call the referee and say "I have it on replay" and call the ref over. It would be no slower than going in to ask the umpire.
What kind of fouls? Serious foul play, striking with the hurl, off the ball incidents, etc and only where a video replay has it to show the ref. I would say a 4th official can call a referees attention to an incident whenever he wants if something happens off the ball that he thinks the ref needs to deal with.
We want the right decisions, not the best guess decision. Help the referee out for god sake." Maybe but there needs to be protocols in place around which fouls can and cant be called for to check on by a TMO then but the problems arent ultimately these. its in the 99% of games which are not on tv and do have linesmen and umpires and theyre not helped.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 31/03/2023 14:09:01
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "But there were 5 sets of eyes on the Cork corner back, referee, 2 umpires, 2 linesmen. And while they were talking, everybody watching the game knew he had hit Drennan in the head and they still came up with the wrong decision because in real time, it didn't look too bad. You just cannot rely on the officials to get these decisions right all the time in real time.
Why not have a 4th official call the referee and say "I have it on replay" and call the ref over. It would be no slower than going in to ask the umpire.
What kind of fouls? Serious foul play, striking with the hurl, off the ball incidents, etc and only where a video replay has it to show the ref. I would say a 4th official can call a referees attention to an incident whenever he wants if something happens off the ball that he thinks the ref needs to deal with.
We want the right decisions, not the best guess decision. Help the referee out for god sake." Yes incidents can be missed but fix what the officials on pitch can do and help them first before adding yet another official.
You should be using the on pitch officials first and foremost. Look at other sports and how they use technology. Rugby now has officials in cases giving an on field decision if they are going to TMO.
It shouldnt be 4th official calling a ref. it only should be ref and linesmen/umpires between themselves deciding to go up to a TMO to make a decision.
Officials do need help but control what they can do in majority of games rather than look at TMO which is only at a tiny number of games. What i suggest will help all games televised or not. your idea doesnt do that.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 31/03/2023 14:39:32
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Replying To KillingFields: "Yes incidents can be missed but fix what the officials on pitch can do and help them first before adding yet another official.
You should be using the on pitch officials first and foremost. Look at other sports and how they use technology. Rugby now has officials in cases giving an on field decision if they are going to TMO.
It shouldnt be 4th official calling a ref. it only should be ref and linesmen/umpires between themselves deciding to go up to a TMO to make a decision.
Officials do need help but control what they can do in majority of games rather than look at TMO which is only at a tiny number of games. What i suggest will help all games televised or not. your idea doesnt do that." Hurling is too fast though you will never get every decision right if relying on people 20-30-40 yards away.
Look, while the referee is going in to the umpires he could also say "TMO have you anything" and see.
We want the right decision, not a guess.
The Cork player should have been sent off, everybody watching saw it on relplay. I don't get the scenario where people feel those who can influence the refereeing decision should not have that luxury to make sure they come to the right decision?
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1128 - 31/03/2023 17:41:12
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