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If Galway, Mayo and Roscommon were not in same half of the draw and two Div 1 teams met in the final, there would be nothing against runner-ups been guaranteed a place in AI series. For instance, if Sligo or Leitrim were to beat one or two of the big guns and qualified for Connacht final, would they not be entitled to a place in the AI series. My hope would be Offaly to reach a Leinter final, Down to reach Ulster final, Tipp/Clare/Limerick to reach a Munster final. Connacht finalists as is, This would mean that you would have 5 teams (Inc Westmeath) from Div 3/4 in AI series, Four teams from Div 1/2 (provincial champions) This leaves seven qualifying through league which would mean some of the established teams competing in the TC. This would generate excitement among the lesser teams. It would also inspire all the other lesser teams to show that it is possible to break into 'Big Boys' club. I know you will totally disagree with this scenario being from an established county. The GAA is a 32 county teams (with London and New York, also english teams in the hurling) It is not all about the elite counties. Jack L (None) - Posts: 3099 - 31/03/2023 14:23:01 2467995 Link 0 |
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I think a big problem is that the league is being used for championship qualifying. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 31/03/2023 14:24:38 2467996 Link 2 |
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And it is an obvious flaw that can be simply fixed going forward with seeding. You don't need to crack a nut with a sledgehammer here. This is a very rare occurrence, and it is sods law that it happens this season. But it is the better solution, than going full bore the other direction. Rewarding of Championship form should be rewarded in Championship.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 31/03/2023 14:36:17 2468000 Link 0 |
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I don't get you. What's your breakdown of 12+2 plus 2 others?
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 31/03/2023 14:43:09 2468007 Link 0 |
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That 2x8 reflects Johnny Kelly's (Offaly Manager) plan for hurling in last Saturday's Indo. He has the 8s loosely called Munster & Leinster, top 2 in each to Prov Finals, before the top 6 advance to mixed AIC groups. One of his main points is that an expanded NHL is needed so that the 12th doesn't yoyo - essentially, he says continuity of strong team opposition on an ongoing basis (avoiding relegation) is needed if the Super 9 is to ever expand.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2583 - 31/03/2023 14:55:49 2468008 Link 0 |
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More competitive games before the group stage.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 31/03/2023 14:56:05 2468009 Link 0 |
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You have 7+9 (league, Provs/TC). I'm saying that two Provs/TC (Sligo/Leitrim, WM) are guaranteed berths and two others might make it (Cavan, Lou/Mea) - so only 12 are a league lock. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2583 - 31/03/2023 15:00:01 2468010 Link 0 |
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Exactly, the GAA is 32 county teams (with London and New York). The league is a fair ranking from 1 to 32 for those who do not win their provincial championship or Tailteann Cup. It is perfectly fair to reward success. Cavan or Fermanagh winning Division 3 will be a success. The Division 3 winner should not be excluded from the All-Ireland series because a Division 4 team beats another Division 4 team in a provincial semi-final.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 31/03/2023 15:09:27 2468011 Link 1 |
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If the majority of counties are in favour of provincial runners-up up being included, that is fair enough. While provincial winners are top seeds, all other qualifiers including provincial runners-up should be seeded on league placing. All provinces would have to agree a universal seeding system: 1. The provincial draws could take place the morning after the league finals with league ranking determining seeding. 2a. The top 7 in Ulster receiving a bye to the quarter-finals. 2b1. The top 5 in Leinster receiving a bye to quarter-finals. 2b2. 6 to 8 in Leinster drawn against 9 to 11 in the preliminary round. 2c. The top 2 in Munster receiving a bye to the semi-finals. 2d. The top 2 in Connacht receiving a bye to the semi-finals. The exception here however is that counties must fulfill quarter-final fixtures against London and New York as per the current agreement. 3. The top 4 seeds in Ulster and Leinster should avoid each other in the quarter-final draw. 4. The top 2 seeds in all provinces should avoid each other in the semi-final draw. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 03/04/2023 17:06:55 2468615 Link 0 |
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Not all provinces should have same system. all cant and shouldnt because of wide differences in each provicne. You wont very little change to the structure because Kerry have such an advantage in Munster having won over 30 titles more than all rest of Munster combined, more than double what Cork who are in 2nd on list and 8 times more titles than Tipp who are 3rd on honours list. Leaving provincial draws until late shouldnt happen. it allows counties prepare better. seeding all provinces shouldnt happen because needs of each province are different. KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 03/04/2023 21:34:13 2468677 Link 2 |
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I think you're getting close to what be a more equitable system. I wouldn't however seed it that far. I'd maybe keep seeds separate alright. 1, 3, 5 etc. on on side, then 2, 4, 6 etc. on the other side, or just keep the top 2 seeds separate. Have your open draw then, but I wouldn't have seeds avoiding a preliminary round or such like in Ulster. They have a system in Ulster where when you play a preliminary round (like Antrim Armagh this year) you get a 3 year exemption from it. Something like this would work. You can still have seeded draws, without overly setting it up so much. I see no reason why seeds must avoid each other in a quarter final draw, especially in a province that have multiple top teams. You're otherwise setting it up that a lower team will always have a hard draw to get to a final and that wouldn't be right either. Try and set to stop a lopsided one, but wouldn't go too far with it.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 04/04/2023 09:50:20 2468693 Link 0 |
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Another thing to be considered is that counties rejected moving to other provinces. If 1 Leinster county entered the Connacht championship and 2 Leinster counties entered the Munster championship, all teams would have to win two games to make a provincial final. If counties are ok with the current structure, there should be less criticism as counties have voted to retain the current provincial structure.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 04/04/2023 10:34:29 2468718 Link 0 |
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With provincial finalists making the All-Ireland, it would be fair to have an agreed seeding across all provinces. I know the tradition has been for early provincial draws but with league having a higher profile, the provincial championships could benefit from a draw after the league using the league seedings.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 04/04/2023 11:18:46 2468736 Link 0 |
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Having the provincial draws seeded and after the league seems very sensible given the new structure.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 04/04/2023 13:54:26 2468788 Link 1 |
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I think that's still fine. The provincials work to the point they do because it's where they feel they belong historically. Rightly or wrongly, that's the way it is, and people want that. If we're to continue with the provincials (which they seem to want to) then we can continue with this. Munster the obvious problem with 6 teams. Connacht less so with 7. As you rightly point out, 3 teams every year just have to win one game to get to a final. You can again set the draw though that you can only get this quarter final bye 1 year in 7 in Connacht, and 1 year in 3 in Munster. So Galway this year cannot get a bye again until 2030, Limerick and Kerry until 2026. With seeding though, we should have a case that even with this one game for these 3 teams yearly, that they will at least either be a top team or will have to be a top team to get through. I'd have little issue with this if this happens. A top team gets in, like Kerry this year, that's fine it's expected. Beat a top team to get through, like if Tipp/Waterford beat Kerry, then they deserve that too. This is all predicated on keeping the provincials. the easiest to do is get rid, but I don't feel that is a solution either. I don't see that gutting 2 good Championships because we've 2 poor one works. More to be done to bring the other ones into line, rather than throwing up your hands and binning them. Seed them, create exemptions for a bye, and then at least it will be as even as we can make it in the current system without moving counties which I feel is a nuclear solution when easier ones exist Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 04/04/2023 14:46:15 2468807 Link 0 |
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I will also add, that I think these are just the teething problems we find at the start. I really feel it was set-up poorly, and is confusing on a number of levels, but this will wash out. The first year was ok, as we had a clean split of 16 and 16, based on Provincials and then League. The 15th and 16th teams promoted from Div3 made it up as it was clean and no others reached finals. Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 04/04/2023 14:56:41 2468810 Link 0 |
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The bye to the semi-finals in Munster is earned on the field of play. The finalists from the previous year are granted the bye from the quarter-finals but could still be paired in the semi-finals. It's like a wrap around championship format to receive the bye. It is about as fair as you can make it unless league seedings are used.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 04/04/2023 16:58:12 2468857 Link 0 |
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Fair enough then, didn't know that. But does this not drive itself? Get to a final, and make it easier to get to a final the next year? Might he no harm to tweak a bit like I suggest, but nah they won't. Think we're nearly there, few adjustments and it'd be where you want it to be Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 04/04/2023 20:44:51 2468914 Link 0 |
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The Munster Council wanted to place Cork and Kerry on opposite sides of the draw a few years back. The footballers of the other 4 counties threatened a boycott. The current seeding structure was agreed by all.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 05/04/2023 12:13:13 2469015 Link 0 |
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Fair enough. Do think that's a bit moot now that the Championship layout has now undergone huge changes. Might be no harm to revisit accounting for seeding and rotating semi final places. There's needs to be an alignment as best as possible within these constraints, so that the smaller provincials don't scuttle other qualifications.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 05/04/2023 13:09:15 2469041 Link 0 |