National Forum

Get Rid Of Hurling League And New Hurling Championship Proposal

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Many of us get too involved in format discussions. The league is the only problem to solve."
And let's enjoy the games - well one of the codes anyway, the one without keep ball.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 26/03/2023 19:18:33    2466865

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Replying To Whammo86:  "That didn't work because teams needed more matches.

something I don't get about the GAA is why there's such a need to restrict the number of matches in the championship.

Just get the best teams playing one another and come up with playoffs and relegation appropriately to keep it interesting. Bang you've got a competition players want to play in and people want to attend."
There's a need to limit the number of matches for 2 main reasons.
Firstly the lads are amateurs and 99% of them work. So playing games week on week for too long isn't viable as they don't have the recovery time professional athletes have.
And secondly, if the season is extended we have less time for club matches, and clubs are the lifeblood of the Association. Without clubs there will be no intercounty players.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14130 - 26/03/2023 19:18:47    2466866

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Then just leave it stand alone. but give a reward of some kind for winning it to make teams still want to win it. keep it played in season and not run off at start of season.

It could stll be stand alone and not directly only potentially affect the all ireland. it would be very different to the current system and by comparing it to now my proposal makes it pretty much stand alone"
Why not just get rid of the pointless semi finals and finals? Have 2 top divisions of 6 teams, the rest of 8 teams, and 2 up and 2 down between all of them. There will be a larger gap between League and Championship so teams can go harder at it, and with 2 up and 2 down there will be less, if any, meaningless games.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14130 - 26/03/2023 19:21:07    2466868

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Replying To Viking66:  "Why not just get rid of the pointless semi finals and finals? Have 2 top divisions of 6 teams, the rest of 8 teams, and 2 up and 2 down between all of them. There will be a larger gap between League and Championship so teams can go harder at it, and with 2 up and 2 down there will be less, if any, meaningless games."
The lower divisions probably would want to remain at 6. Lower tier championships start before the provincial championships. 2 up and down is still a good shout.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 26/03/2023 21:15:14    2466918

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Replying To Viking66:  "There's a need to limit the number of matches for 2 main reasons.
Firstly the lads are amateurs and 99% of them work. So playing games week on week for too long isn't viable as they don't have the recovery time professional athletes have.
And secondly, if the season is extended we have less time for club matches, and clubs are the lifeblood of the Association. Without clubs there will be no intercounty players."
Yet top level amateurs in many other sports can play 20+ games a year. it is more than viable. you dont need to extend the length of the season but play off some competitions in a far more condensed time period.
you wouldnt have less time for club matches with an extended or better inter county season as clubs would be forced to put n a better system for the majority of players who will never be playing inter county anyway

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3681 - 26/03/2023 22:00:32    2466947

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The lower divisions probably would want to remain at 6. Lower tier championships start before the provincial championships. 2 up and down is still a good shout."
No problem with having 6 per division all the way through. 2 up and 2 down is necessary to avoid dead rubbers. Also if 1 team in a division was alot better than the other 5 it still means one of the other 5 has a chance of promotion.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14130 - 27/03/2023 07:47:24    2466957

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Yet top level amateurs in many other sports can play 20+ games a year. it is more than viable. you dont need to extend the length of the season but play off some competitions in a far more condensed time period.
you wouldnt have less time for club matches with an extended or better inter county season as clubs would be forced to put n a better system for the majority of players who will never be playing inter county anyway"
That's why I'm suggesting doing away with the pointless League semi finals and finals. Will free up more weekends. I think the pre season competitions should stay. They would provide the chance for counties to experiment as well as providing the useful funds for player injury support.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14130 - 27/03/2023 07:49:59    2466958

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Replying To Viking66:  "There's a need to limit the number of matches for 2 main reasons.
Firstly the lads are amateurs and 99% of them work. So playing games week on week for too long isn't viable as they don't have the recovery time professional athletes have.
And secondly, if the season is extended we have less time for club matches, and clubs are the lifeblood of the Association. Without clubs there will be no intercounty players."
Ok I'm suggesting a competition where teams play a maximum of 14 matches. Can easily be played in the same window as now.

A Leinster team going to the All Ireland final and National League final could play up to 16 fixtures in the current format.

An 11 game season with knockout is very doable.

The whole amateur argument is rubbish too, if they aren't playing matches they are having to train anyway. A main push in recent years has been to change the training to games ratio.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4344 - 27/03/2023 10:40:48    2466991

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Replying To Viking66:  "No problem with having 6 per division all the way through. 2 up and 2 down is necessary to avoid dead rubbers. Also if 1 team in a division was alot better than the other 5 it still means one of the other 5 has a chance of promotion."
I agree with removing semi-finals and finals. Realistically the GAA want to retain them for financial reasons.
If the top team in 2A was automatically promoted, there's an added incentive to win the regular league phase. If an Offaly v Kerry semi-final has the reward of the second promotion spot, it is a great incentive.
Applying this format to 1B would create even more interest. For arguments sake, Clare automatically promoted 1B winners. Wexford at home to Dublin in a semi-final for the second promotion spot. The GAA would also have a 1A semi-final. The 1A and 1B on metric would result in the same games plus a 1B final.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 27/03/2023 11:48:46    2467011

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Ok I'm suggesting a competition where teams play a maximum of 14 matches. Can easily be played in the same window as now.

A Leinster team going to the All Ireland final and National League final could play up to 16 fixtures in the current format.

An 11 game season with knockout is very doable.

The whole amateur argument is rubbish too, if they aren't playing matches they are having to train anyway. A main push in recent years has been to change the training to games ratio."
Most teams and players have said on numerous occasions that playing every other week is ideal. Playing week on week at full championship intensity is hard.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14130 - 27/03/2023 12:32:14    2467039

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14 matches for 1 competition is just too many and would impact attendances overall. Less is more sometimes. What we need in the GAA is a warm-up competition (e.g. Walsh Cup, Munster Cup), then the "up the tempo" comp (knock-out provincial championships) then the real action (2 x groups of 6, or 7 in time) but with room for the developing counties to see why it is worth promoting hurling. We can't just continue to give Westmeath and Kildare and Kerry a pat on the head and say "glass ceiling has been hit".

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1264 - 27/03/2023 13:13:39    2467059

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "14 matches for 1 competition is just too many and would impact attendances overall. Less is more sometimes. What we need in the GAA is a warm-up competition (e.g. Walsh Cup, Munster Cup), then the "up the tempo" comp (knock-out provincial championships) then the real action (2 x groups of 6, or 7 in time) but with room for the developing counties to see why it is worth promoting hurling. We can't just continue to give Westmeath and Kildare and Kerry a pat on the head and say "glass ceiling has been hit"."
If Kildare and Offaly were being promoted to take on Clare, Wexford, Dublin and Antrim for a year, that would be fair. It is not a seismic change.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 27/03/2023 13:58:25    2467077

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "14 matches for 1 competition is just too many and would impact attendances overall. Less is more sometimes. What we need in the GAA is a warm-up competition (e.g. Walsh Cup, Munster Cup), then the "up the tempo" comp (knock-out provincial championships) then the real action (2 x groups of 6, or 7 in time) but with room for the developing counties to see why it is worth promoting hurling. We can't just continue to give Westmeath and Kildare and Kerry a pat on the head and say "glass ceiling has been hit"."
I think that the best place for the development of counties is in the league. As other posters have said on here - if 2 teams were promoted and relegated in each division there would be a lot more fluidity across the divisions and more exposure between the different tiers - e.g. the top of the Joe McDonagh and the lower level of the Liam McCarthy level.

Having more or less the same 12 teams in Division 1 & the Leinster/Munster championship leads to the league being treated as it is right now - as a gentle puck about as a warm up to the main Leinster / Munster round robin.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 370 - 27/03/2023 14:33:00    2467089

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "14 matches for 1 competition is just too many and would impact attendances overall. Less is more sometimes. What we need in the GAA is a warm-up competition (e.g. Walsh Cup, Munster Cup), then the "up the tempo" comp (knock-out provincial championships) then the real action (2 x groups of 6, or 7 in time) but with room for the developing counties to see why it is worth promoting hurling. We can't just continue to give Westmeath and Kildare and Kerry a pat on the head and say "glass ceiling has been hit"."
Don't get me wrong I like your plan too. It'd be a step forward with the only issue being less importance for the Provincial championships, trying to preserve them does make it challenging to accommodate a pathway for developing that tier below the top 9 as you say.

We can agree to disagree on the 14 matches in one competition is too many. All I'll say is that it works in plenty of other sports.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4344 - 27/03/2023 15:18:33    2467109

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "14 matches for 1 competition is just too many and would impact attendances overall. Less is more sometimes. What we need in the GAA is a warm-up competition (e.g. Walsh Cup, Munster Cup), then the "up the tempo" comp (knock-out provincial championships) then the real action (2 x groups of 6, or 7 in time) but with room for the developing counties to see why it is worth promoting hurling. We can't just continue to give Westmeath and Kildare and Kerry a pat on the head and say "glass ceiling has been hit"."
You dont need a warm up competition. Just play Friendlies. Play the knockout provincial competition in between rounds of your main league based all ireland competition. If a county is knocked out in Round 1 of province when next round of prov9ncial competition is on they can either play club championship or give inter County players a rest.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3681 - 27/03/2023 15:28:11    2467113

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Replying To KillingFields:  "You dont need a warm up competition. Just play Friendlies. Play the knockout provincial competition in between rounds of your main league based all ireland competition. If a county is knocked out in Round 1 of province when next round of prov9ncial competition is on they can either play club championship or give inter County players a rest."
How much money will friendlies raise for the Injury fund? Also like many other hurling fans I enjoy the preseason competitions. There were over 12000 people in the Park to see Kilkenny come to town.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14130 - 27/03/2023 17:07:48    2467132

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If Kildare and Offaly were being promoted to take on Clare, Wexford, Dublin and Antrim for a year, that would be fair. It is not a seismic change."
Per Offaly's Johnny Kelly's plan in the Indo on Saturday, in order for weak teams to improve, he argued the likes of Kildare would need to play Clare year in year out without relegation.
There are arguments for promo/relag and for exposing teams to higher quality beyond on year - splitting the difference is cross-div playoffs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 27/03/2023 17:41:32    2467146

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Replying To Viking66:  "How much money will friendlies raise for the Injury fund? Also like many other hurling fans I enjoy the preseason competitions. There were over 12000 people in the Park to see Kilkenny come to town."
The GAA won't be in a hurry to dismiss league semi-finals when there were good crowds in Limerick and Kilkenny.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 28/03/2023 09:03:02    2467215

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Replying To KillingFields:  "You dont need a warm up competition. Just play Friendlies. Play the knockout provincial competition in between rounds of your main league based all ireland competition. If a county is knocked out in Round 1 of province when next round of prov9ncial competition is on they can either play club championship or give inter County players a rest."
I would be fine with that as well.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1264 - 28/03/2023 13:28:58    2467309

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Don't get me wrong I like your plan too. It'd be a step forward with the only issue being less importance for the Provincial championships, trying to preserve them does make it challenging to accommodate a pathway for developing that tier below the top 9 as you say.

We can agree to disagree on the 14 matches in one competition is too many. All I'll say is that it works in plenty of other sports."
Ah look, there's no perfect format.
The reason the provincial championships were retained in my proposal was because the counties, and the traditionalists, will fight tooth and nail to keep them.
I think below the top 9, the ability to extend my proposed championship to 7 teams in each group provides everybody with an incentive to grow the game.
I think if hurling's fraternity could be extended to 14-16 counties in a decade, that would be an almighty step forward for the game. Realistically, the game will never spread in to 1/2 of the country no matter how much we wish it would.

We don't want another 40 years of no new champions though so have to provide something better for the middle of the road counties, even if the cream will always rise to the top.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1264 - 28/03/2023 13:32:37    2467312

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