National Forum

Get Rid Of Hurling League And New Hurling Championship Proposal

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omahant I get the idea and good on you for the calendar but do you nott think that is an inordinate number of matches for supporters and players? In addition, I think players having to be "on it" from 01 Feb will just mean more winter training and a longer season, when players should not be playing games?

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1264 - 25/03/2023 12:39:55    2466430

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Only 2 replies from Munster counties, 1 from Limerick and 1 from Kerry.
Hear no evil see no evil or I'm alright Jack?

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1264 - 25/03/2023 12:40:55    2466431

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Replying To omahant:  "11 games + Prov Final + AI Series = 15 games (at most). Currently, Kilkenny might play NHL 7 (5+2KO), Prov 6 (5+1Final) and AIC 3 (Lein Final loss) = 16, a higher load, but let's say, comparable/unchanged.

Dead rubbers - yes, more likely in the NHL 12, but still 6 teams advance to AIC, and if you want, 2 down.
Note also, later NHL rounds count toward the Prov 'Muns 5 & Lein 7' as well.

Calendar = start Feb to end July (25 weeks, 66 games):
Feb week 1 = NHL Rd 1 (5 Muns v Lein, 1 Lein v Lein)
Feb week 2 = NHL Rd 2 (5 Muns v Lein, 1 Lein v Lein)
Feb week 3 = Off
Feb week 4 = NHL Rd 3 (5 Muns v Lein, 1 Lein v Lein)

Mar week 1 = NHL Rd 4 (5 Muns v Lein, 1 Lein v Lein)
Mar week 2 = Off
Mar week 3 = NHL Rd 5 (5 Muns v Lein, 1 Lein v Lein)
Mar week 4 = NHL Rd 6 (5 Muns v Lein, 1 Lein v Lein)

Apr week 1 = Off
Apr week 2 = NHL Rd 7 (5 Muns v Lein, 1 Lein v Lein)
Apr week 3 = NHL Rd 8/Prov Rd 1 (2 M v M, 3 L v L)
Apr week 4 = Off
Apr week 5 = NHL Rd 9/Prov Rd 2 (2 M v M, 3 L v L)

May week 1 = NHL Rd 10/Prov Rd 3 (2 M v M, 3 L v L)
May week 2 = Off
May week 3 = NHL Rd 11/Prov Rd 4 (2 M v M, 3 L v L)
May week 4 = NHL Rd 12/Prov Rd 5 (2 M v M, 2 L v L)

Jun week 1 = Off
Jun week 2 = Prov Final (Lein)
Jun week 3 = Prov Final (Muns)
Jun week 4 = Off

Jul week 1 = AIC QFs (x2)
Jul week 2 = Off
Jul week 3 = AIC SFs (x2)
Jul week 4 = Off
Jul week 5 = AIC Final

For ease of explanation, I put "Off" weeks in Feb, Mar, Apr and May. In practice, for TV, players and fans, I would distribute the '5 Muns v Lein' and later Prov pairings more evenly throughout each month.

Well....?"
Still seems a very complicated solution. What's wrong with League having 6 teams in div1 and 2. 8 in the rest. 2 up and 2 down. And no finals. So more free weeks between League and Championship so teams can give the League a good go. Leave the championship alone. Simples peeps; )

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14130 - 25/03/2023 13:10:58    2466437

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Only 2 replies from Munster counties, 1 from Limerick and 1 from Kerry.
Hear no evil see no evil or I'm alright Jack?"
Leinster is a winner from a recent change to be fair. If Kerry win the McDonagh, Leinster will be the five team province for a change with no relegation. Laois and Westmeath's results in Division 1 suggest there will be no need for an expansion from 11 to 12 anytime soon.
One point that gets overlooked is that 17 teams enter the McCarthy Cup through the Munster, Leinster and McDonagh.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 25/03/2023 13:11:23    2466438

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Replying To Viking66:  "Still seems a very complicated solution. What's wrong with League having 6 teams in div1 and 2. 8 in the rest. 2 up and 2 down. And no finals. So more free weeks between League and Championship so teams can give the League a good go. Leave the championship alone. Simples peeps; )"
I suppose the "complication" is in blending/combining the Provs with the league. The argument at the moment is that the league is stale and irrelevant prior to the Provs. My idea tries to address this by making all pairings meaningful, earning points prior to the AIC.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 25/03/2023 16:52:15    2466522

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "omahant I get the idea and good on you for the calendar but do you nott think that is an inordinate number of matches for supporters and players? In addition, I think players having to be "on it" from 01 Feb will just mean more winter training and a longer season, when players should not be playing games?"
Not sure what 'long season' is in this context - an 11-match combined NHL/Prov Championships prior to AIC KO, is not unlike now (max NHL 5+2, Prov 5+1 before AIC).

The main difference is - yes, teams need to get "on it" sooner, but isn't that the price for making the league meaningful?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 25/03/2023 16:58:54    2466525

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Replying To omahant:  "I suppose the "complication" is in blending/combining the Provs with the league. The argument at the moment is that the league is stale and irrelevant prior to the Provs. My idea tries to address this by making all pairings meaningful, earning points prior to the AIC."
The hurling league was purposely made stale. All they have to do is revert back to metric. The Wexford motion of promoting 2 and relegating 2 is also a good one.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 25/03/2023 17:07:45    2466526

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Replying To omahant:  "I suppose the "complication" is in blending/combining the Provs with the league. The argument at the moment is that the league is stale and irrelevant prior to the Provs. My idea tries to address this by making all pairings meaningful, earning points prior to the AIC."
Why blend/combine them at all?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14130 - 25/03/2023 17:10:54    2466527

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Leinster is a winner from a recent change to be fair. If Kerry win the McDonagh, Leinster will be the five team province for a change with no relegation. Laois and Westmeath's results in Division 1 suggest there will be no need for an expansion from 11 to 12 anytime soon.
One point that gets overlooked is that 17 teams enter the McCarthy Cup through the Munster, Leinster and McDonagh."
Interesting column in today's Info - Offaly's Johnny Kelly plan to give "middle class" counties more games against the biggest teams.

He starts with two 8-team leagues (Div 1), loosely named Munster & Leinster, with most McDonagh Cup teams added. After 7 league games per team, the top 2 in each contest Prov Finals, before a Top 12 overall are drawn to two mixed AIC groups (mixed, like football), with the bottom 4 joining Div 2 top 2 in a 6-team McDonagh Cup (like now, except the top 4 earn
Prov league/Div 1 berths for the following year).
One of his main points is that McDonagh teams will play top teams every year - unlike relegation in the current league, with teams yoyoing up and down.

Using his idea, my variant would be:
- Munster 8 play the Leinster 8 (as Prov Championship Group Qualifiers).
- Muns Top 5 and Lein Top 5 (not 6) form two Prov Championship Groups (like now).
- To make the Qualifier/league portion more valuable, teams carry over their points earned as part of the Prov Championship tables.
- Like now, Prov Top 2s to two Prov Finals (winners to AI SFs, losers v 3rds in QFs).
- Muns Bottom 3 and Lein Bottom 3 to 6-team McDonagh Cup group (like now), with Top 4 of 6 entering 8-team Muns & Lein Qual Group in the following year.

Well....?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 25/03/2023 17:27:26    2466536

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Replying To Viking66:  "Why blend/combine them at all?"
I repeat - remove staleness, enhance meaningfulness.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 25/03/2023 17:30:19    2466537

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Hurling had a great league and they intentionally took away the jeopardy. Simply restore the jeopardy with 2 up and down. The Munster championship is great. The Leinster championship has produced some great final day drama.
An RTÉ columnist was suggesting a top division of 7. That would result in only 2 top teams in the second tier. 3 top teams in the second tier gives a fairer test ahead of championship. Brackets of 6 are the way to go.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 25/03/2023 17:37:12    2466539

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Hurling had a great league and they intentionally took away the jeopardy. Simply restore the jeopardy with 2 up and down. The Munster championship is great. The Leinster championship has produced some great final day drama.
An RTÉ columnist was suggesting a top division of 7. That would result in only 2 top teams in the second tier. 3 top teams in the second tier gives a fairer test ahead of championship. Brackets of 6 are the way to go."
I agree on the Champ groups being exciting - but the prior elite Top 6 league was too intense - relieve the pressure by making these the Prov pairings later on.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 25/03/2023 17:48:28    2466541

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League should be two up two down , what's the problem with it! Kildare and Offaly go up , Laois and Westmeath relegated . Hurling top tier afraid one year they might be relegated

ke40 (Kildare) - Posts: 214 - 25/03/2023 18:01:22    2466546

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Replying To omahant:  "Interesting column in today's Info - Offaly's Johnny Kelly plan to give "middle class" counties more games against the biggest teams.

He starts with two 8-team leagues (Div 1), loosely named Munster & Leinster, with most McDonagh Cup teams added. After 7 league games per team, the top 2 in each contest Prov Finals, before a Top 12 overall are drawn to two mixed AIC groups (mixed, like football), with the bottom 4 joining Div 2 top 2 in a 6-team McDonagh Cup (like now, except the top 4 earn
Prov league/Div 1 berths for the following year).
One of his main points is that McDonagh teams will play top teams every year - unlike relegation in the current league, with teams yoyoing up and down.

Using his idea, my variant would be:
- Munster 8 play the Leinster 8 (as Prov Championship Group Qualifiers).
- Muns Top 5 and Lein Top 5 (not 6) form two Prov Championship Groups (like now).
- To make the Qualifier/league portion more valuable, teams carry over their points earned as part of the Prov Championship tables.
- Like now, Prov Top 2s to two Prov Finals (winners to AI SFs, losers v 3rds in QFs).
- Muns Bottom 3 and Lein Bottom 3 to 6-team McDonagh Cup group (like now), with Top 4 of 6 entering 8-team Muns & Lein Qual Group in the following year.

Well....?"
Well, if the intention is McDonagh teams getting an opportunity to play top teams in the league, divisions of 7 with 2 up and down would be the solution there. The disadvantage of being promoted as runner-up would be the team not playing in the final round in the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 25/03/2023 18:13:01    2466548

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Replying To ke40:  "League should be two up two down , what's the problem with it! Kildare and Offaly go up , Laois and Westmeath relegated . Hurling top tier afraid one year they might be relegated"
It could be tried first. If automatically relegating the bottom teams of both groups adds an edge, go with it.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 25/03/2023 18:15:34    2466550

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Replying To omahant:  "I agree on the Champ groups being exciting - but the prior elite Top 6 league was too intense - relieve the pressure by making these the Prov pairings later on."
Is that the managers fault? They should get the balance right between being competitive in 1A while also allowing for the fact that 1B has shown it can provide the competitive hurling to be a springboard to winning an All-Ireland. If 1B can provide a platform to win the All-Ireland, it has shown it is a good competitive level. Exactly what is required, just like Division 2 in football. Galway were in Football Division 2 and made the All-Ireland final last year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 25/03/2023 18:18:36    2466551

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Replying To omahant:  "I repeat - remove staleness, enhance meaningfulness."
The issue isn't staleness. Yours seems to be a complicated answer to a question noone is asking.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14130 - 25/03/2023 19:05:06    2466556

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Is that the managers fault? They should get the balance right between being competitive in 1A while also allowing for the fact that 1B has shown it can provide the competitive hurling to be a springboard to winning an All-Ireland. If 1B can provide a platform to win the All-Ireland, it has shown it is a good competitive level. Exactly what is required, just like Division 2 in football. Galway were in Football Division 2 and made the All-Ireland final last year."
An argument can be made that playing in 1B/2 preserves energy to hit peak at the right time later on.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 25/03/2023 22:04:27    2466588

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Replying To omahant:  "An argument can be made that playing in 1B/2 preserves energy to hit peak at the right time later on."
That was the argument made when the format was changed to the current one. But while it's been good to the teams that were in the old 1a, especially ourselves this year, it has proved to be bad for the League as a competition in general and the weaker counties in div1 in particular.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14130 - 26/03/2023 08:06:21    2466591

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Replying To omahant:  "An argument can be made that playing in 1B/2 preserves energy to hit peak at the right time later on."
When hurling had divisions of 8, Division 2 did not provide competitive hurling for the top teams missing out on Division 1. Divisions of 6 fixed the problem. 1A teams do not have to go full tilt.1B is proven to be a competitive level. There was no need to fight tooth and nail to avoid it.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 26/03/2023 08:52:55    2466597

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