National Forum

Get Rid Of Hurling League And New Hurling Championship Proposal

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Replying To TerribleFootwork:  "This is 4th thread on the go about the National Hurling League, some going for such a maligned competition!!"
I won't start a 5th.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 24/03/2023 12:49:24    2466232

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Replying To Viking66:  "2 up 2 down would solve that problem both nationally and locally."
Firstly, I don't consider it a problem.

Secondly, you can put two up and two down if you want, but that's essentially a separate issue.

You'd still have to decide if it's the bottom team in each group to go straight down, or if 5th and 6th place in the groups would have to play each other in relegation finals. And I'd still maintain that it's the bottom teams who should go straight down, instead of getting another chance.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 24/03/2023 12:53:23    2466236

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "I'd still maintain that the slight possibility of a dead rubber in the final round of group games, between teams who were going to finish 4th and 5th no matter what, is preferable to a situation where a team might finish 5th with four points but still go down if they happened to be caught on the hop by a team who finished bottom with no points (for instance, if the 5th-placed team had picked up a number of injuries in their final group game).

It's actually the same as applies here in Wexford, with our club championships structure of two groups of six, and the bottom two playing off in a relegation final.

There used to be relegation semi-finals that also involved the 5th-placed teams, but clubs voted a few years ago to get rid of them, and there's been absolutely no appetite or calls to reverse that decision.

As I said, if you're bottom after five matches, you're there for five reasons already, and don't particularly deserve a sixth chance."
A compromise could be that the '5th v bottom' playoff takes place only if within 2 pts of each other - otherwise, bottom automatically goes down?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 24/03/2023 12:54:02    2466237

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I just posted in the wrong topic. There are too many format topics floating around!
I agree with the 2 groups of 6 format. It's essentially the current league structure with quarter-finals. 11 teams is fair at the moment. If an expansion to 12 is fair down the line, it should be considered."
And, let's be clear - I started NONE of them!

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 24/03/2023 12:55:31    2466239

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Look, there is no perfect format.
People who think what is there at the moment is fine must have seen a different league to the one I paid €18 in to see a couple of times.
The goal of this is two-fold:
1. To give the up-and coming counties (Kildare, Westmeath, etc) something better than a Yo-Yo situation where 3 years later players think "why bother, we've hit the glass ceiling"
2. To appease the traditionalists who come hell or high water would defend the provincial championships.
It is easy for the top counties to say hurling is grand don't touch it but that doesn't reflect the reality below the top few counties and will never extend the games reach beyond a handful of counties. This gives everybody a reason to compete, doesn't protect any county from relegation and also is extendable to future proof the game.

If we even got 5-6 more counties (Kildare, Kerry, Offaly, Westmeath, Laois say) up to the a level where they could be competing with the top level, is that not something to try to aspire to?"
It's a really good idea. There's a lot to like about it and I absolutely agree whilst the current format has worked well there are some shortcomings with it that could be tweaked and meet the needs of emerging counties a little better.

I think football could benefit from similar too.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4344 - 24/03/2023 13:08:54    2466241

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What's wrong with having a Top 12 NHL, all playing 11 games, including Prov Championship matches (mostly scheduled for season 2nd half) 'doubling up' for both competitions.
- NHL (no KO), table topper is Champ.
- Prov groups retained (M5 & L6/7), with top 2s to Finals.
- AIC 6-team KO, with 2 Prov Champs and Other top 4 from 11-match NHL table (2 byes based on NHL, not necessarily Prov Champs)

Well....?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 24/03/2023 13:11:37    2466243

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Replying To omahant:  "A compromise could be that the '5th v bottom' playoff takes place only if within 2 pts of each other - otherwise, bottom automatically goes down?"
More complications.. ...

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14130 - 24/03/2023 13:58:05    2466271

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Replying To omahant:  "What's wrong with having a Top 12 NHL, all playing 11 games, including Prov Championship matches (mostly scheduled for season 2nd half) 'doubling up' for both competitions.
- NHL (no KO), table topper is Champ.
- Prov groups retained (M5 & L6/7), with top 2s to Finals.
- AIC 6-team KO, with 2 Prov Champs and Other top 4 from 11-match NHL table (2 byes based on NHL, not necessarily Prov Champs)

Well....?"
And even more complications..... ! What's wrong with simple? If you had a motorbike you d have tussles and live to ride eagles all over it: D

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14130 - 24/03/2023 13:59:14    2466274

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Replying To Viking66:  "And even more complications..... ! What's wrong with simple? If you had a motorbike you d have tussles and live to ride eagles all over it: D"
You seem confident with "IF" :)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 24/03/2023 14:16:27    2466282

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Replying To Viking66:  "And even more complications..... ! What's wrong with simple? If you had a motorbike you d have tussles and live to ride eagles all over it: D"
To be fair it's not that complicated if it can be explained in a couple of sentences.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4344 - 24/03/2023 14:35:03    2466285

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11 games plus break weeks plus provincial finals plus AI series equals a very early start in the year (and especially when you need to be on your game for the first week, can you imagine the injuries to players who need to peak for 6+ months of the year?) and can you imagine the complaints if a team drew Limerick, Tipp and Kilkenny when somebody else drew Dublin, Westmeath and Laois in the first 3 rounds?
An 11 round league would result in a lot of dead rubbers towards the end, and I bet the overall gate take would be down because there would be too many games.
To me its a lot of games, but if I am unfairly quoting you, please give us out a potential calendar?

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1264 - 24/03/2023 15:29:17    2466299

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Replying To Whammo86:  "To be fair it's not that complicated if it can be explained in a couple of sentences."
I see it as complicated as well. League, provincial championships and All-Ireland is an established sequence. I'm in favour of provincial championships standing on their own too feet. It's not pressing in hurling as the current 11 teams in the provincial championships seems to suit. Football would suit it.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 24/03/2023 15:39:17    2466302

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "11 games plus break weeks plus provincial finals plus AI series equals a very early start in the year (and especially when you need to be on your game for the first week, can you imagine the injuries to players who need to peak for 6+ months of the year?) and can you imagine the complaints if a team drew Limerick, Tipp and Kilkenny when somebody else drew Dublin, Westmeath and Laois in the first 3 rounds?
An 11 round league would result in a lot of dead rubbers towards the end, and I bet the overall gate take would be down because there would be too many games.
To me its a lot of games, but if I am unfairly quoting you, please give us out a potential calendar?"
If you put in incentives and other levels for success in the league there shouldnt be dead rubbers like take some of the leagues in soccer. you have battles for league title, top 3/4 for champions league. next 2/3 for europa league and then relegation.
Lots of games shouldnt be seen as a problem. compare GAA to most other sports at the top level even taking into account some of these are professional. the teams play far more games in a year in competitions
its same at club level. my club will play at least 25 competitive games in rugby this season. helped by making 2 finals so far but even least successful clubs will play at least 20 competitive games at senior level. junior level will be same

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3681 - 24/03/2023 15:49:27    2466307

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I see it as complicated as well. League, provincial championships and All-Ireland is an established sequence. I'm in favour of provincial championships standing on their own too feet. It's not pressing in hurling as the current 11 teams in the provincial championships seems to suit. Football would suit it."
i Know why you keep on insisting on no change from the status quo of league being played out in full and then provincial championship feeding into all ireland because it suits kerry far more than a lot of counties in other provinces but it needs changing
all competitions should be inter linked and played out like the soccer season is structured.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3681 - 24/03/2023 15:56:02    2466313

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I see it as complicated as well. League, provincial championships and All-Ireland is an established sequence. I'm in favour of provincial championships standing on their own too feet. It's not pressing in hurling as the current 11 teams in the provincial championships seems to suit. Football would suit it."
How would the current All Ireland championship look if you tried to explain it in here.

Everything gets much clearer when games get played and it's lived through.

I think his suggestion is fine, I wouldn't add an extra provincial final, I'd just run the provincials as knockout but part (including the final)of the 11 game round robin for all teams.

Top 6 to All Ireland playoffs and if provincial champions don't make it so be it.

14 week schedule can get played from March to July.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4344 - 24/03/2023 16:05:18    2466321

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Replying To omahant:  "You seem confident with "IF" :)"
'If a picture paints a thousand words', according to the song.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1879 - 24/03/2023 18:16:23    2466349

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I see it as complicated as well. League, provincial championships and All-Ireland is an established sequence. I'm in favour of provincial championships standing on their own too feet. It's not pressing in hurling as the current 11 teams in the provincial championships seems to suit. Football would suit it."
With the difference of opinion between the two of you, now I wonder if I'm being gaslit? :)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 24/03/2023 19:08:20    2466351

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "11 games plus break weeks plus provincial finals plus AI series equals a very early start in the year (and especially when you need to be on your game for the first week, can you imagine the injuries to players who need to peak for 6+ months of the year?) and can you imagine the complaints if a team drew Limerick, Tipp and Kilkenny when somebody else drew Dublin, Westmeath and Laois in the first 3 rounds?
An 11 round league would result in a lot of dead rubbers towards the end, and I bet the overall gate take would be down because there would be too many games.
To me its a lot of games, but if I am unfairly quoting you, please give us out a potential calendar?"
11 games + Prov Final + AI Series = 15 games (at most). Currently, Kilkenny might play NHL 7 (5+2KO), Prov 6 (5+1Final) and AIC 3 (Lein Final loss) = 16, a higher load, but let's say, comparable/unchanged.

Dead rubbers - yes, more likely in the NHL 12, but still 6 teams advance to AIC, and if you want, 2 down.
Note also, later NHL rounds count toward the Prov 'Muns 5 & Lein 7' as well.

Calendar = start Feb to end July (25 weeks, 66 games):
Feb week 1 = NHL Rd 1 (5 Muns v Lein, 1 Lein v Lein)
Feb week 2 = NHL Rd 2 (5 Muns v Lein, 1 Lein v Lein)
Feb week 3 = Off
Feb week 4 = NHL Rd 3 (5 Muns v Lein, 1 Lein v Lein)

Mar week 1 = NHL Rd 4 (5 Muns v Lein, 1 Lein v Lein)
Mar week 2 = Off
Mar week 3 = NHL Rd 5 (5 Muns v Lein, 1 Lein v Lein)
Mar week 4 = NHL Rd 6 (5 Muns v Lein, 1 Lein v Lein)

Apr week 1 = Off
Apr week 2 = NHL Rd 7 (5 Muns v Lein, 1 Lein v Lein)
Apr week 3 = NHL Rd 8/Prov Rd 1 (2 M v M, 3 L v L)
Apr week 4 = Off
Apr week 5 = NHL Rd 9/Prov Rd 2 (2 M v M, 3 L v L)

May week 1 = NHL Rd 10/Prov Rd 3 (2 M v M, 3 L v L)
May week 2 = Off
May week 3 = NHL Rd 11/Prov Rd 4 (2 M v M, 3 L v L)
May week 4 = NHL Rd 12/Prov Rd 5 (2 M v M, 2 L v L)

Jun week 1 = Off
Jun week 2 = Prov Final (Lein)
Jun week 3 = Prov Final (Muns)
Jun week 4 = Off

Jul week 1 = AIC QFs (x2)
Jul week 2 = Off
Jul week 3 = AIC SFs (x2)
Jul week 4 = Off
Jul week 5 = AIC Final

For ease of explanation, I put "Off" weeks in Feb, Mar, Apr and May. In practice, for TV, players and fans, I would distribute the '5 Muns v Lein' and later Prov pairings more evenly throughout each month.

Well....?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2944 - 24/03/2023 20:46:58    2466364

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Replying To KillingFields:  "i Know why you keep on insisting on no change from the status quo of league being played out in full and then provincial championship feeding into all ireland because it suits kerry far more than a lot of counties in other provinces but it needs changing
all competitions should be inter linked and played out like the soccer season is structured."
In hurling, the flaw was Kerry having to playoff to join Munster. That flaw has been removed. A good suggestion has been made that the hurling league promotes 2 and relegating 2.
In football, the provincial champions link can remain. The football structure doesn't need sweeping changes. I think 4 groups of 5 would be a good fit. The football league would have to adopt divisions of 6 to allow extra group games in championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 25/03/2023 11:34:02    2466408

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Replying To Whammo86:  "How would the current All Ireland championship look if you tried to explain it in here.

Everything gets much clearer when games get played and it's lived through.

I think his suggestion is fine, I wouldn't add an extra provincial final, I'd just run the provincials as knockout but part (including the final)of the 11 game round robin for all teams.

Top 6 to All Ireland playoffs and if provincial champions don't make it so be it.

14 week schedule can get played from March to July."
Football rejected a provincial group stage. League as qualifiers and an All-Ireland group stage has been approved. Within that framework, a few small adjustments are needed. The GAA acknowledge that themselves to be fair.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 25/03/2023 11:50:02    2466415

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