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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "There is relegation and the promoted team has a chance of surviving. That has benefitted Antrim.. There ought also be relegation of course from other section. Waterford are living on muscle memory. Would be doing well to avoid relegation battle in Leinster championship never mind league."
Have checked back, and Waterford have fared better than Dublin the League in each of the past four seasons:

2023: Finished above Dublin in the same group
2022: Finished above Dublin in the same group
2021: Got 6 points in one group, while Dublin only got 4 in the other
2020: Also got 6 points in one group, while Dublin only got 4 in the other

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 25/09/2023 12:44:57    2505603

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The Rugby World Cup got me thinking - rugby has the the hurling problem in deciding how many teams should sit at the top table.

Both codes have a 'top 9' (or less) but rugby has included 20 teams in its flagship tournament. All the mismatches are ugly to watch - but is it best to give minnows top tier match practice or to keep a closed shop? I don't know what the solution is - maybe a midway of 16 teams is a better balance?

In hurling, there has been talk of including "squeezed middle" teams - but surely - that does not mean merging the McDonagh 6 and Christy Ring 3 teams with the McCarthy 11 in NHL Div 1.
It's a tough nut to crack - as evidenced by the series of NHL reforms over the past 30 years.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2940 - 25/09/2023 21:07:07    2505722

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Replying To omahant:  "Yup, my native Cork reformed their county championships in recent years too. Now both hurling and football have identical formats - the top 60 clubs are divided into 5 tiers of 12, each has three groups of four, with the top 2 in each to the 6-team KO (two best group winner byes in each and the Divisional winner is a 7th KO team in Tier 1, with one bye).
I think it works great with one up, one down.

Both the NFL & NHL would work great too with 7-team divisions over 5 tiers (NFL 7-7-7-7-4, double round robin Div 5). The smaller NFL divisions could give the AI SFC a bit more breathing space too, especially if the NFL Finals are discontinued as well."
One issue with the Cork format with 5 tiers of 12, is the amount of games happening simultaneously, resulting in poor attendance numbers at most games. A recent Rockies vs SARS game shown on TG4 was sparsely attended. Contrast this to 1962, when 25,000 attended the UCC vs Glen Rovers replay in the Old Athletic Grounds ( actually was 25,001 as I was there). That massive attendance was 10% of population of Cork city at the time, and club hurling in Cork was extremely competitive for the next few decades.Whilst the current format in Cork might be efficient, attendance at games hasn't followed, and to be honest the standard has declined.

Ryanteam (Cork) - Posts: 410 - 26/09/2023 13:04:30    2505816

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "And of course the presumption that Dublin and Wexford belong in there, rather than, oh, Waterford maybe..."
Of course Dublin and Wexford will be in there, you hardly expect one of the sacred cows to be in there?

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1264 - 26/09/2023 13:42:32    2505837

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Replying To Ryanteam:  "One issue with the Cork format with 5 tiers of 12, is the amount of games happening simultaneously, resulting in poor attendance numbers at most games. A recent Rockies vs SARS game shown on TG4 was sparsely attended. Contrast this to 1962, when 25,000 attended the UCC vs Glen Rovers replay in the Old Athletic Grounds ( actually was 25,001 as I was there). That massive attendance was 10% of population of Cork city at the time, and club hurling in Cork was extremely competitive for the next few decades.Whilst the current format in Cork might be efficient, attendance at games hasn't followed, and to be honest the standard has declined."
Attendances at 1955 and 1977 Cork hurling finals were 31K and 35K respectively. Present day attendances nowhere near that. Gaelic football attendance is even worse. With relegation of Glen Rovers this year, and recent demise of Na Piarsaigh ,no north side team is in premier hurling championship. Changed times! Glen Rovers relegation may be temporary as they have many inter county players Horgan, 2 Downeys, McDonnell etc . Barrs are back to the fore, which is good as Cork hurling needs strong city clubs!

Ryanteam (Cork) - Posts: 410 - 26/09/2023 13:57:02    2505842

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "And of course the presumption that Dublin and Wexford belong in there, rather than, oh, Waterford maybe..."
After year 1 assuming Wexford and Dublin were the 2 promoted, the 2 relegated counties would be screaming about what a disgrace it is that 2 of them were relegated and how it needs to be looked at. Most likely by 2 counties who did not for 1 second engage with this review.....
I have long said the middle of the road counties need to target underage hurling provincial success to be really taken seriously. But the structure now across the entire game of hurling is about protecting the few at the top and creating a glass ceiling for the rest of the game.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1264 - 26/09/2023 14:05:21    2505843

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "And of course the presumption that Dublin and Wexford belong in there, rather than, oh, Waterford maybe..."
After year 1 assuming Wexford and Dublin were the 2 promoted, the 2 relegated counties would be screaming about what a disgrace it is that 2 of them were relegated and how it needs to be looked at. Most likely by 2 counties who did not for 1 second engage with this review.....
I have long said the middle of the road counties need to target underage hurling provincial success to be really taken seriously. But the structure now across the entire game of hurling is about protecting the few at the top and creating a glass ceiling for the rest of the game. And nothing bears that out more than the relegation in the Leinster championship and none in the Munster equivalent.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1264 - 26/09/2023 14:05:58    2505844

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "After year 1 assuming Wexford and Dublin were the 2 promoted, the 2 relegated counties would be screaming about what a disgrace it is that 2 of them were relegated and how it needs to be looked at. Most likely by 2 counties who did not for 1 second engage with this review.....
I have long said the middle of the road counties need to target underage hurling provincial success to be really taken seriously. But the structure now across the entire game of hurling is about protecting the few at the top and creating a glass ceiling for the rest of the game. And nothing bears that out more than the relegation in the Leinster championship and none in the Munster equivalent."
We saw it happen with our own eyes in wexford during the Colm bonner era.

Wexford got two huge results to stay up and they changed the format after the fact to relegate them anyway.

In the same season limerick were shafted too. They won promotion but were left down.

Soon after cork were relegated but the structure was changed to protect them.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3223 - 26/09/2023 15:08:18    2505863

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "After year 1 assuming Wexford and Dublin were the 2 promoted, the 2 relegated counties would be screaming about what a disgrace it is that 2 of them were relegated and how it needs to be looked at. Most likely by 2 counties who did not for 1 second engage with this review.....
I have long said the middle of the road counties need to target underage hurling provincial success to be really taken seriously. But the structure now across the entire game of hurling is about protecting the few at the top and creating a glass ceiling for the rest of the game. And nothing bears that out more than the relegation in the Leinster championship and none in the Munster equivalent."
You could argue that the 'top 5' in both Munster and Leinster stay up - and the 11th team goes down.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2940 - 27/09/2023 02:10:08    2505921

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Replying To Ryanteam:  "One issue with the Cork format with 5 tiers of 12, is the amount of games happening simultaneously, resulting in poor attendance numbers at most games. A recent Rockies vs SARS game shown on TG4 was sparsely attended. Contrast this to 1962, when 25,000 attended the UCC vs Glen Rovers replay in the Old Athletic Grounds ( actually was 25,001 as I was there). That massive attendance was 10% of population of Cork city at the time, and club hurling in Cork was extremely competitive for the next few decades.Whilst the current format in Cork might be efficient, attendance at games hasn't followed, and to be honest the standard has declined."
Given the number of clubs in Cork, how would you avoid so many simultaneous games - widen the club window or scrap group play? The GAA should end the inter-county by the 3rd week in August - it would delay very few county championships.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2940 - 27/09/2023 02:19:57    2505922

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Replying To omahant:  "You could argue that the 'top 5' in both Munster and Leinster stay up - and the 11th team goes down."
Yes, its important that the top 5 in both Munster and Leinster stay up, and everybody else gets a pat on the back for their efforts...................................

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1788 - 27/09/2023 09:44:27    2505943

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The carrot for the divisions of 7 is that two protected counties won't be outside of Division 1 for too long.
If they go for the option of 12 teams playing 6 games, two teams should be relegated in that case also.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 27/09/2023 13:44:53    2505998

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Replying To omahant:  "Yup, my native Cork reformed their county championships in recent years too. Now both hurling and football have identical formats - the top 60 clubs are divided into 5 tiers of 12, each has three groups of four, with the top 2 in each to the 6-team KO (two best group winner byes in each and the Divisional winner is a 7th KO team in Tier 1, with one bye).
I think it works great with one up, one down.

Both the NFL & NHL would work great too with 7-team divisions over 5 tiers (NFL 7-7-7-7-4, double round robin Div 5). The smaller NFL divisions could give the AI SFC a bit more breathing space too, especially if the NFL Finals are discontinued as well."
But a 7-team division has the same number of rounds as an 8-team division so no time would be saved. It would just mean one team having a bye each round. Also relegating four teams to a Division 5, only playing each other, would be utterly demoralising and pointless for them.

Overall, I wouldn't favour any change to the NFL structure. It works very well as it is.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 122 - 27/09/2023 16:52:41    2506027

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Replying To legendzxix:  "It is an alternative. It is six in one and a half dozen in the other. When it comes down to small details either way like that, best leave it to the administrators.
With divisions of 7, the important detail will be that the lowest ranked team from the year before gets a bye in the final round. It will give lower division finals a bit of a carrot to play for. Noone wants a bye in the final round. You could be a sitting duck with your opponents knowing the results needed to finish above you. Avoiding a bye in the final round on the field of play is the fairest way. Even in Division 5 with no relegation, finishing above 7th will avoid the bye of the final round in the following year, if being positive the county were going to challenge for the final in an improved season!"
I don't understand why it would be such a disadvantage to have a bye in the final round. It could actually be an advantage in that it means a team has a longer break before the start of the championship (if they don't get to the league final) or before the league final (if they do get there).

In the four years that the Munster Hurling championship has been run as a 5-team round robin, there has been no particular advantage or disadvantage in having the bye in the last round. Teams that have had the bye have finished first, second, fourth and fifth in the table.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 122 - 27/09/2023 17:06:50    2506029

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Would the Rugby Union match points system be a good change for GAA's NHL and NFL?

NFL - BP for scoring 2 goals and losing by up to 3 pts.

NHL - BP for scoring 4 goals and losing by up to 6 pts.

If so, would you change my thresholds and to what?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2940 - 30/09/2023 19:09:22    2506394

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