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First post from long time reader:
What would people think or merging Connacht & Ulster (for a total of 16 teams incl. New York) and Leinster & Munster (17 teams) for the "provincial" championships?
My idea would be to get rid of the warm up competitions (FBD, O'Byrne cup, etc) and play these championships as knockout (open draw) before the league. To make them worthwhile you could give the winners of each points towards their league total, and the finalists one point.
The league would run as it is, but I would agree with a lot of people in getting rid of the league finals, and awarding the title to the top team in each division.
The league standings would feed directly into seeded AI competitions as follows:
- Top 6 in Div 1 and Top 2 in Div 2 would be into the quarter finals of the Sam Maguire.
- Top 6 in Div 3 and Top 2 in Div 4 into the quarter finals of the Tailteann Cup.
To give every team a chance of making the Sam Maguire, if a Div 3/4 team won their "province" the would automatically get promoted to Div 2 before the league started. Also, the winners of the Tailteann Cup would automatically start the following year in Div 2. This might mean an extra 1-2 teams being relegated from Div 2, which would only add to the competitiveness.
I'm aware that this proposal means that for 16 teams the year would be over after the league but this would make the league even more important, and most people agree that it is already the best competition. To overcome this, you could simply introduce a last 16 round in each championship, but I would still have it seeded based on league standings.
Another few points on this:
- The Leinster/Munster Championship would need a prelim round which I suggest would be limited to Div 4 teams only
- You would still have the traditional rivalries in the provinces (e.g. Mayo/Galway, Donegal/Derry, Cork/Kerry) but could also have the prospect of say Kerry/Dublin in the first round of the "provincial" championship.
- Provincial councils would still have their local derbies and could alternate having the final every year.
- The county season would be streamlined to 4 provincial rounds (+ prelim round in Leinster/Munster), 7 league rounds, and 3 AI rounds (or 4 if you played a last 16 round)
- I haven't fully thought the following through but an option would be to play the provincials in Jan/Feb/Mar, leagues in Mar/Apr/May, have a break for club football May/June/July, and then have the AI championships in July/Aug/Sep or possibly later…
New&Improved (Leitrim) - Posts: 20 - 11/03/2023 13:57:20
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Replying To New&Improved: "First post from long time reader:
What would people think or merging Connacht & Ulster (for a total of 16 teams incl. New York) and Leinster & Munster (17 teams) for the "provincial" championships?
My idea would be to get rid of the warm up competitions (FBD, O'Byrne cup, etc) and play these championships as knockout (open draw) before the league. To make them worthwhile you could give the winners of each points towards their league total, and the finalists one point.
The league would run as it is, but I would agree with a lot of people in getting rid of the league finals, and awarding the title to the top team in each division.
The league standings would feed directly into seeded AI competitions as follows:
- Top 6 in Div 1 and Top 2 in Div 2 would be into the quarter finals of the Sam Maguire.
- Top 6 in Div 3 and Top 2 in Div 4 into the quarter finals of the Tailteann Cup.
To give every team a chance of making the Sam Maguire, if a Div 3/4 team won their "province" the would automatically get promoted to Div 2 before the league started. Also, the winners of the Tailteann Cup would automatically start the following year in Div 2. This might mean an extra 1-2 teams being relegated from Div 2, which would only add to the competitiveness.
I'm aware that this proposal means that for 16 teams the year would be over after the league but this would make the league even more important, and most people agree that it is already the best competition. To overcome this, you could simply introduce a last 16 round in each championship, but I would still have it seeded based on league standings.
Another few points on this:
- The Leinster/Munster Championship would need a prelim round which I suggest would be limited to Div 4 teams only
- You would still have the traditional rivalries in the provinces (e.g. Mayo/Galway, Donegal/Derry, Cork/Kerry) but could also have the prospect of say Kerry/Dublin in the first round of the "provincial" championship.
- Provincial councils would still have their local derbies and could alternate having the final every year.
- The county season would be streamlined to 4 provincial rounds (+ prelim round in Leinster/Munster), 7 league rounds, and 3 AI rounds (or 4 if you played a last 16 round)
- I haven't fully thought the following through but an option would be to play the provincials in Jan/Feb/Mar, leagues in Mar/Apr/May, have a break for club football May/June/July, and then have the AI championships in July/Aug/Sep or possibly later…" Why does every proposal put playing all competitions in their entirety before playing the next.
Surely best format is like soccer with premier league and champions league and league cup/fa cup all played troughout the season
I dont see how merging provincial competitions is better or necessary. It doesnt aid anyone or solve anything
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3504 - 11/03/2023 14:37:55
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Replying To KillingFields: "Why does every proposal put playing all competitions in their entirety before playing the next.
Surely best format is like soccer with premier league and champions league and league cup/fa cup all played troughout the season
I dont see how merging provincial competitions is better or necessary. It doesnt aid anyone or solve anything" Fair point. The main reason for this is if you want them linked (e.g. provincial winners have an advantage going into the all Ireland series) then you have to finish one before starting the next. In the structure above you could definitely play the provincials and the league concurrently. I suppose the argument against this is fairness and player burnout, a team that does well in the knockout competitions is at a disadvantage in the league based competitions.
Merging the provinces I think negates the argument that some provinces are at an advantage/disadvantage compared to others. And makes it more evenly balanced overall.
New&Improved (Leitrim) - Posts: 20 - 11/03/2023 15:07:44
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Replying To KillingFields: "Why does every proposal put playing all competitions in their entirety before playing the next.
Surely best format is like soccer with premier league and champions league and league cup/fa cup all played troughout the season
I dont see how merging provincial competitions is better or necessary. It doesnt aid anyone or solve anything" The hurling league was intertwined with championship one year. It didn't gain traction and they reverted back. Hard to break with some tradition.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7838 - 11/03/2023 15:23:52
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Replying To legendzxix: "The hurling league was intertwined with championship one year. It didn't gain traction and they reverted back. Hard to break with some tradition." It's just a terrible idea and football is a perfect example of why.
The FA Cup is not cared about. It's all about the Premier League and Champions League.
It'd be the same in Gaelic games. The Championship would be all that matters. The league would be even more of an after thought than it is now.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4213 - 11/03/2023 15:43:10
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Replying To New&Improved: "First post from long time reader:
What would people think or merging Connacht & Ulster (for a total of 16 teams incl. New York) and Leinster & Munster (17 teams) for the "provincial" championships?
My idea would be to get rid of the warm up competitions (FBD, O'Byrne cup, etc) and play these championships as knockout (open draw) before the league. To make them worthwhile you could give the winners of each points towards their league total, and the finalists one point.
The league would run as it is, but I would agree with a lot of people in getting rid of the league finals, and awarding the title to the top team in each division.
The league standings would feed directly into seeded AI competitions as follows:
- Top 6 in Div 1 and Top 2 in Div 2 would be into the quarter finals of the Sam Maguire.
- Top 6 in Div 3 and Top 2 in Div 4 into the quarter finals of the Tailteann Cup.
To give every team a chance of making the Sam Maguire, if a Div 3/4 team won their "province" the would automatically get promoted to Div 2 before the league started. Also, the winners of the Tailteann Cup would automatically start the following year in Div 2. This might mean an extra 1-2 teams being relegated from Div 2, which would only add to the competitiveness.
I'm aware that this proposal means that for 16 teams the year would be over after the league but this would make the league even more important, and most people agree that it is already the best competition. To overcome this, you could simply introduce a last 16 round in each championship, but I would still have it seeded based on league standings.
Another few points on this:
- The Leinster/Munster Championship would need a prelim round which I suggest would be limited to Div 4 teams only
- You would still have the traditional rivalries in the provinces (e.g. Mayo/Galway, Donegal/Derry, Cork/Kerry) but could also have the prospect of say Kerry/Dublin in the first round of the "provincial" championship.
- Provincial councils would still have their local derbies and could alternate having the final every year.
- The county season would be streamlined to 4 provincial rounds (+ prelim round in Leinster/Munster), 7 league rounds, and 3 AI rounds (or 4 if you played a last 16 round)
- I haven't fully thought the following through but an option would be to play the provincials in Jan/Feb/Mar, leagues in Mar/Apr/May, have a break for club football May/June/July, and then have the AI championships in July/Aug/Sep or possibly later…" In lieu of Top 6/Top 2 breakdown, it might be better to have 2 divs of 16, with each div having 2 groups of 8.
Then you could have Top 4/Top 4 (best 8) from both groups to the top and lower Tier AIC KO.
Maybe Bottom 4/Bottom 4 in Div 1 could play for a middle of 3 tiers as well, with the QF losers going down to Div 2.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2578 - 12/03/2023 20:45:18
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Replying To omahant: "In lieu of Top 6/Top 2 breakdown, it might be better to have 2 divs of 16, with each div having 2 groups of 8.
Then you could have Top 4/Top 4 (best 8) from both groups to the top and lower Tier AIC KO.
Maybe Bottom 4/Bottom 4 in Div 1 could play for a middle of 3 tiers as well, with the QF losers going down to Div 2." Some people are expecting a lot from amateur players playing at the top level. Hurling seems to have found the right number of games. 5 league and 5 championship.
Football counties rejected a provincial round robin. The result is an All-Ireland round after a condensed provincial championship.
Football should look at the hurling model of 5 league games and 4 or 5 championship games.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7838 - 12/03/2023 21:23:49
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Replying To legendzxix: "Some people are expecting a lot from amateur players playing at the top level. Hurling seems to have found the right number of games. 5 league and 5 championship.
Football counties rejected a provincial round robin. The result is an All-Ireland round after a condensed provincial championship.
Football should look at the hurling model of 5 league games and 4 or 5 championship games." No because gaelic football has far more teams capable of playing each other.
Both sports need to have different formats as they have completely different needs.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3504 - 12/03/2023 21:48:49
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Replying To KillingFields: "No because gaelic football has far more teams capable of playing each other.
Both sports need to have different formats as they have completely different needs." They have a similar timescale however. There is a strong argument for expanding the All-Ireland series to 20. To add extra weeks for groups of 5, the league will have to reduce by a couple of weeks.
Hurling will probably retain the current format for many years with only minor tweaks. Football will probably take on a shorter league like hurling, keep the provincial knockout and the proceed with the group stages of the All-Ireland and Tailteann.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7838 - 13/03/2023 15:50:31
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Replying To legendzxix: "They have a similar timescale however. There is a strong argument for expanding the All-Ireland series to 20. To add extra weeks for groups of 5, the league will have to reduce by a couple of weeks.
Hurling will probably retain the current format for many years with only minor tweaks. Football will probably take on a shorter league like hurling, keep the provincial knockout and the proceed with the group stages of the All-Ireland and Tailteann." Theyre not the same though. They cant be compared with number of counties and spread of those across country as well.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3504 - 13/03/2023 20:01:14
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Needs of football and wants of the players and managers is a lot different to what hurling have at the minute.
Is there ever commentary from players or managers that they want fewer competitive games.
There's an appetite for playing the number of games scheduled for this year and ones that are meaningful for players.
They shouldn't be the only stakeholders to look to accommodate but they are the most important in my book.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4213 - 14/03/2023 13:41:19
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Football currently has league divisions of 8 and will have championship groups of 4 this summer. All I'm saying is that if the championship opted for groups of 5 or 6, the league would have to switch to divisions of 6. Personally I'd prefer an extra home game in the championship in place of a home league game.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7838 - 14/03/2023 18:02:45
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https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/2023-all-ireland-sfc-format-explained/
Game 1: Seed 1 v Seed 3, Seed 2 v Seed 4
Game 2: Seed 3 v Seed 2, Seed 4 v Seed 1
Game 3: Seed 1 v Seed 2, Seed 3 v Seed 4
During the Round One group phase the schedule of matches is pre-determined with each team playing one home and one away game in the opening two rounds. Round Three fixtures will be played at neutral venues.
Seed 1 beats 3 at home and 4 away. Seed 4 beats Seed 2 and Seed 3 beats Seed 2;
Game 3, preliminary quarter-finals and quarter-finals will be on consecutive weekends.
Seed 1 plays Seed 2 in Game 3, Seed 1 has already qualified. Seed 2 has already been eliminated. Will there be a big crowd in a neutral venue or will Seed 1 supporters wait for the quarter-finals?
Seed 3 plays Seed 4 in Game 3. Both have already qualified for the preliminary quarter-finals. The prize is a home draw. Will there be a big crowd in a neutral venue or will supporters wait for the preliminary quarter-finals?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7838 - 15/03/2023 16:38:06
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Replying To legendzxix: " https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/2023-all-ireland-sfc-format-explained/ Game 1: Seed 1 v Seed 3, Seed 2 v Seed 4 Game 2: Seed 3 v Seed 2, Seed 4 v Seed 1 Game 3: Seed 1 v Seed 2, Seed 3 v Seed 4 During the Round One group phase the schedule of matches is pre-determined with each team playing one home and one away game in the opening two rounds. Round Three fixtures will be played at neutral venues. Seed 1 beats 3 at home and 4 away. Seed 4 beats Seed 2 and Seed 3 beats Seed 2; Game 3, preliminary quarter-finals and quarter-finals will be on consecutive weekends. Seed 1 plays Seed 2 in Game 3, Seed 1 has already qualified. Seed 2 has already been eliminated. Will there be a big crowd in a neutral venue or will Seed 1 supporters wait for the quarter-finals? Seed 3 plays Seed 4 in Game 3. Both have already qualified for the preliminary quarter-finals. The prize is a home draw. Will there be a big crowd in a neutral venue or will supporters wait for the preliminary quarter-finals?"
If points difference were being used in this scenario then with Seed 1 on 4 points, Seeds 3 and 4 on 2 points and Seed 2 on 0 points, the final round of matches between Seeds 1 v 2 and Seeds 3 v 4 would both be meaningful as Seeds 1,3 and 4 could still top the table and Seed 2 could still qualify.
Note that the soccer World Cup uses goal difference to separate teams in its groups of four, leading to more permutations and less chance of dead rubbers.
I think the use of head-to-head in football (and hurling) is a mistake, particularly when there are so few drawn matches. It also makes no sense that head-to-head is used when two teams are tied in points but points difference is used when it is more than two teams. It should be one system or the other in all scenarios.
CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 101 - 16/03/2023 16:23:20
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Replying To CeachtPeile: " Replying To legendzxix: " https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/2023-all-ireland-sfc-format-explained/ Game 1: Seed 1 v Seed 3, Seed 2 v Seed 4 Game 2: Seed 3 v Seed 2, Seed 4 v Seed 1 Game 3: Seed 1 v Seed 2, Seed 3 v Seed 4 During the Round One group phase the schedule of matches is pre-determined with each team playing one home and one away game in the opening two rounds. Round Three fixtures will be played at neutral venues. Seed 1 beats 3 at home and 4 away. Seed 4 beats Seed 2 and Seed 3 beats Seed 2; Game 3, preliminary quarter-finals and quarter-finals will be on consecutive weekends. Seed 1 plays Seed 2 in Game 3, Seed 1 has already qualified. Seed 2 has already been eliminated. Will there be a big crowd in a neutral venue or will Seed 1 supporters wait for the quarter-finals? Seed 3 plays Seed 4 in Game 3. Both have already qualified for the preliminary quarter-finals. The prize is a home draw. Will there be a big crowd in a neutral venue or will supporters wait for the preliminary quarter-finals?" This is a good example of how what are effectively dead rubbers can arise. This is much more likely when head-to-head is being used to separate teams on the same points rather than points difference, particularly in small groups of four teams. If points difference were being used in this scenario then with Seed 1 on 4 points, Seeds 3 and 4 on 2 points and Seed 2 on 0 points, the final round of matches between Seeds 1 v 2 and Seeds 3 v 4 would both be meaningful as Seeds 1,3 and 4 could still top the table and Seed 2 could still qualify. Note that the soccer World Cup uses goal difference to separate teams in its groups of four, leading to more permutations and less chance of dead rubbers. I think the use of head-to-head in football (and hurling) is a mistake, particularly when there are so few drawn matches. It also makes no sense that head-to-head is used when two teams are tied in points but points difference is used when it is more than two teams. It should be one system or the other in all scenarios."
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4213 - 16/03/2023 17:49:10
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Replying To CeachtPeile: " Replying To legendzxix: " https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/2023-all-ireland-sfc-format-explained/ Game 1: Seed 1 v Seed 3, Seed 2 v Seed 4 Game 2: Seed 3 v Seed 2, Seed 4 v Seed 1 Game 3: Seed 1 v Seed 2, Seed 3 v Seed 4 During the Round One group phase the schedule of matches is pre-determined with each team playing one home and one away game in the opening two rounds. Round Three fixtures will be played at neutral venues. Seed 1 beats 3 at home and 4 away. Seed 4 beats Seed 2 and Seed 3 beats Seed 2; Game 3, preliminary quarter-finals and quarter-finals will be on consecutive weekends. Seed 1 plays Seed 2 in Game 3, Seed 1 has already qualified. Seed 2 has already been eliminated. Will there be a big crowd in a neutral venue or will Seed 1 supporters wait for the quarter-finals? Seed 3 plays Seed 4 in Game 3. Both have already qualified for the preliminary quarter-finals. The prize is a home draw. Will there be a big crowd in a neutral venue or will supporters wait for the preliminary quarter-finals?" This is a good example of how what are effectively dead rubbers can arise. This is much more likely when head-to-head is being used to separate teams on the same points rather than points difference, particularly in small groups of four teams. If points difference were being used in this scenario then with Seed 1 on 4 points, Seeds 3 and 4 on 2 points and Seed 2 on 0 points, the final round of matches between Seeds 1 v 2 and Seeds 3 v 4 would both be meaningful as Seeds 1,3 and 4 could still top the table and Seed 2 could still qualify. Note that the soccer World Cup uses goal difference to separate teams in its groups of four, leading to more permutations and less chance of dead rubbers. I think the use of head-to-head in football (and hurling) is a mistake, particularly when there are so few drawn matches. It also makes no sense that head-to-head is used when two teams are tied in points but points difference is used when it is more than two teams. It should be one system or the other in all scenarios."
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1411 - 16/03/2023 19:48:09
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......It also makes no sense that head-to-head is used when two teams are tied in points but points difference is used when it is more than two teams. It should be one system or the other in all scenarios......
Totally, agree. What would the GAA give for their rationale? - we needed sticking plaster and found two pots of paint?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2578 - 16/03/2023 20:57:48
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There is a format option of:
2 groups of 6 in Division 1. Top teams into final. Bottom teams relegated. 5th placed teams in relegation final.
2 groups of 5 in Division 2. Top teams into final and promoted. 2nd placed teams in promotion final. Bottom teams relegated. 4th placed teams in relegation final.
2 groups of 5 in Division 3. Top teams into final and promoted. 2nd placed teams in promotion final.
The league can be played out over 6 weekends with a rest weekend after Game 3.
The All-Ireland then having 20 teams in 4 groups of 5. Provincial winners, Tailteann winners and 15 teams on league ranking. Tailteann Cup teams then in 2 groups of 6.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7838 - 17/03/2023 10:52:24
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The new structure is a mess. People want a league format but still retaining a knockout structure. The Challenge Cup in rugby league used be bigger than the league but over time it lost its glamour and I think the same will happen to the GAA.
Seems like the solution is to merge both into one format. Lets say you have 12 in Division 1. They all play eachother Top 6 enter the knockout stage.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 17/03/2023 14:19:47
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Replying To Rolo2010: "The new structure is a mess. People want a league format but still retaining a knockout structure. The Challenge Cup in rugby league used be bigger than the league but over time it lost its glamour and I think the same will happen to the GAA.
Seems like the solution is to merge both into one format. Lets say you have 12 in Division 1. They all play eachother Top 6 enter the knockout stage." There is strong merit in that alright. 12 teams in Tier 1 (11 group games), 10 in Tier 2 (9 group games) and 10 in Tier 3 (9 group games). The blocker is the provincial championships. They'd have to settle for the mooted provincial league format before the All-Ireland season.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7838 - 18/03/2023 13:28:10
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