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Replying To omahant: "It reflects a convoluted system, shouldn't happen and can easily be avoided:
Determine how many teams (call it X) from the 'NFL Bottom 16' that have advanced to AIC Tier 1 as Prov Finalist or prior year Tier 2 Champ - in 2023, we start with 2, WM and Sligo/Leitrim/Lon/NY, but this could grow.
Then the NFL will ALWAYS advance the 'Top 16-X'." It won't make a difference this year, but for the top two in division 3, which takes precedence, the league standings or the league final result? In theory, this could come into play in division 2 as well but it is highly unlikely.
New&Improved (Leitrim) - Posts: 21 - 03/04/2023 21:43:45
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Replying To New&Improved: "It won't make a difference this year, but for the top two in division 3, which takes precedence, the league standings or the league final result? In theory, this could come into play in division 2 as well but it is highly unlikely." The League final result trumps final league standings. So Cavan are above Fermanagh even though the table did not finish like that.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 04/04/2023 09:51:57
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "The League final result trumps final league standings. So Cavan are above Fermanagh even though the table did not finish like that." That's right - so Cavan are 15th seed and would need my X above to be no more than 1.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2589 - 05/04/2023 13:59:42
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Replying To omahant: "That's right - so Cavan are 15th seed and would need my X above to be no more than 1." Cavan are 15th in the league ladder. They cannot jump above Meath (14th) in the league qualification route. 8 provincial finalists will qualify for the All-Ireland. That's the only route available for Cavan this year.
Cavan were the one county with a kind of false league position. They have rectified that problem and will be challenging for All-Ireland places through the league next year.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 05/04/2023 17:00:38
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This Tailteann Cup could turn into a farce.
The qualifiers were brought in to help the so called weaker counties, to give them a second match. We all know that it is the stronger counties which benefitted from it.
Similarly the TC was brought in to give D3/4 teams a competition which they could compete in rather than suffering big hammerings in the qualifiers.
This year's make up will be (at the moment assuming that these counties do not reach a provincial final.
Meath/Kildare/Clare
Cavan
Fermanagh
Limerick.
Down
Offaly
Top seeds could be Kildare, Cavan, Fermanagh, Limerick.
What chance has a lower D3 or a D4 side against these counties.
What will happen is that one of these four could win it this year, and will use the league next season and maybe provincial series for building towards the All Ireland series.
In my opinion the TC should be limited to bottom 12 teams in the league (and New York). It would give these counties something realistic to aim for.
Jack L (None) - Posts: 3099 - 11/04/2023 12:11:23
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Replying To Jack L: "This Tailteann Cup could turn into a farce.
The qualifiers were brought in to help the so called weaker counties, to give them a second match. We all know that it is the stronger counties which benefitted from it.
Similarly the TC was brought in to give D3/4 teams a competition which they could compete in rather than suffering big hammerings in the qualifiers.
This year's make up will be (at the moment assuming that these counties do not reach a provincial final.
Meath/Kildare/Clare
Cavan
Fermanagh
Limerick.
Down
Offaly
Top seeds could be Kildare, Cavan, Fermanagh, Limerick.
What chance has a lower D3 or a D4 side against these counties.
What will happen is that one of these four could win it this year, and will use the league next season and maybe provincial series for building towards the All Ireland series.
In my opinion the TC should be limited to bottom 12 teams in the league (and New York). It would give these counties something realistic to aim for." Does there need to be another tier? Top 16, next 8 and the remaining 8 or 9?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 11/04/2023 13:38:12
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As things stand, for any given year, only the 8 division 1 teams and top 3 in division 2 are guaranteed places in the All Ireland series. Tailteann cup winners take a 12th slot and the 4 provincial finalists also guaranteed a spot. So potentially 5 teams from Div3/4 can leapfrog teams in division 2.
For avoidance of doubt, teams promoted from Div 3 outrank teams relegated from Div 2. This was evidenced last season where Offaly and Down (relegated) played in Tailteann while Limerick and Louth (promoted) played in Sam Maguire.
We already know that either Sligo or NY will get a spot in All Ireland, and either Clare or Limerick (who were both relegated to Division 3) will get a spot from Munster final. So that leaves 2 spots to be filled. Current ranking for those 2 spots is as follows:
Cork
Kildare
Meath
Cavan
Fermanagh
Using rankings only
The only way Meath/Cavan/Fermanagh will get to play in Sam Maguire is to get to their provincial final. If one of them does, then that bumps Kildare down to Tailteann (unless Kildare also get to Leinster final). If either of Kildare or Meath get to Leinster final AND Cavan, Fermanagh or Down get to Ulster final, then both those finalists leapfrog Cork, who would then play in the Tailteann.
Westmeath
If Westmeath get to the Leinster final, then that frees up another spot from Division 2, because the Tailteann cup winner spot becomes irrelevant. If Kildare are not the other Leinster finalist, it would guarantee Cork's place in the All Ireland. It It could also clear the way for both Kildare and Meath to qualify without having to get to the Leinster final, if things go their way in Ulster.
Bawner (Sligo) - Posts: 39 - 11/04/2023 15:34:28
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Replying To legendzxix: "Does there need to be another tier? Top 16, next 8 and the remaining 8 or 9?" Don't see any issue with any of these 4 teams being in the TC. You are hardly suggesting any of them would be in the running for SAM?,
giveitlong (Galway) - Posts: 1222 - 11/04/2023 16:00:37
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Replying To Bawner: "As things stand, for any given year, only the 8 division 1 teams and top 3 in division 2 are guaranteed places in the All Ireland series. Tailteann cup winners take a 12th slot and the 4 provincial finalists also guaranteed a spot. So potentially 5 teams from Div3/4 can leapfrog teams in division 2.
For avoidance of doubt, teams promoted from Div 3 outrank teams relegated from Div 2. This was evidenced last season where Offaly and Down (relegated) played in Tailteann while Limerick and Louth (promoted) played in Sam Maguire.
We already know that either Sligo or NY will get a spot in All Ireland, and either Clare or Limerick (who were both relegated to Division 3) will get a spot from Munster final. So that leaves 2 spots to be filled. Current ranking for those 2 spots is as follows:
Cork
Kildare
Meath
Cavan
Fermanagh
Using rankings only
The only way Meath/Cavan/Fermanagh will get to play in Sam Maguire is to get to their provincial final. If one of them does, then that bumps Kildare down to Tailteann (unless Kildare also get to Leinster final). If either of Kildare or Meath get to Leinster final AND Cavan, Fermanagh or Down get to Ulster final, then both those finalists leapfrog Cork, who would then play in the Tailteann.
Westmeath
If Westmeath get to the Leinster final, then that frees up another spot from Division 2, because the Tailteann cup winner spot becomes irrelevant. If Kildare are not the other Leinster finalist, it would guarantee Cork's place in the All Ireland. It It could also clear the way for both Kildare and Meath to qualify without having to get to the Leinster final, if things go their way in Ulster." You are wrong regarding Westmeath. If they reach a Leinster final it does not free up another spot. The only way Meath can qualify for All Ireland is reaching a Leinster final...
Temple56 (Westmeath) - Posts: 386 - 11/04/2023 16:26:15
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Replying To Bawner: "As things stand, for any given year, only the 8 division 1 teams and top 3 in division 2 are guaranteed places in the All Ireland series. Tailteann cup winners take a 12th slot and the 4 provincial finalists also guaranteed a spot. So potentially 5 teams from Div3/4 can leapfrog teams in division 2.
For avoidance of doubt, teams promoted from Div 3 outrank teams relegated from Div 2. This was evidenced last season where Offaly and Down (relegated) played in Tailteann while Limerick and Louth (promoted) played in Sam Maguire.
We already know that either Sligo or NY will get a spot in All Ireland, and either Clare or Limerick (who were both relegated to Division 3) will get a spot from Munster final. So that leaves 2 spots to be filled. Current ranking for those 2 spots is as follows:
Cork
Kildare
Meath
Cavan
Fermanagh
Using rankings only
The only way Meath/Cavan/Fermanagh will get to play in Sam Maguire is to get to their provincial final. If one of them does, then that bumps Kildare down to Tailteann (unless Kildare also get to Leinster final). If either of Kildare or Meath get to Leinster final AND Cavan, Fermanagh or Down get to Ulster final, then both those finalists leapfrog Cork, who would then play in the Tailteann.
Westmeath
If Westmeath get to the Leinster final, then that frees up another spot from Division 2, because the Tailteann cup winner spot becomes irrelevant. If Kildare are not the other Leinster finalist, it would guarantee Cork's place in the All Ireland. It It could also clear the way for both Kildare and Meath to qualify without having to get to the Leinster final, if things go their way in Ulster." No only 7 teams are guaranteed through the league. Top 6 in division 1 and division 2 champions.
There are 8 Provincial finalists.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 11/04/2023 16:33:18
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Replying To Bawner: "As things stand, for any given year, only the 8 division 1 teams and top 3 in division 2 are guaranteed places in the All Ireland series. Tailteann cup winners take a 12th slot and the 4 provincial finalists also guaranteed a spot. So potentially 5 teams from Div3/4 can leapfrog teams in division 2.
For avoidance of doubt, teams promoted from Div 3 outrank teams relegated from Div 2. This was evidenced last season where Offaly and Down (relegated) played in Tailteann while Limerick and Louth (promoted) played in Sam Maguire.
We already know that either Sligo or NY will get a spot in All Ireland, and either Clare or Limerick (who were both relegated to Division 3) will get a spot from Munster final. So that leaves 2 spots to be filled. Current ranking for those 2 spots is as follows:
Cork
Kildare
Meath
Cavan
Fermanagh
Using rankings only
The only way Meath/Cavan/Fermanagh will get to play in Sam Maguire is to get to their provincial final. If one of them does, then that bumps Kildare down to Tailteann (unless Kildare also get to Leinster final). If either of Kildare or Meath get to Leinster final AND Cavan, Fermanagh or Down get to Ulster final, then both those finalists leapfrog Cork, who would then play in the Tailteann.
Westmeath
If Westmeath get to the Leinster final, then that frees up another spot from Division 2, because the Tailteann cup winner spot becomes irrelevant. If Kildare are not the other Leinster finalist, it would guarantee Cork's place in the All Ireland. It It could also clear the way for both Kildare and Meath to qualify without having to get to the Leinster final, if things go their way in Ulster." This is wrong on two fronts.
(1) There are only seven places guaranteed from the league each year (the first six teams in Division 1 and the Division 2 winner). There are eight places allocated to the provincial finalists and one to the Tailteann Cup winners.
(2) Westmeath qualifying for the Leinster final would have no effect other than changing Westmeath's seeding pot from pot 4 to pots 1 or 2. It does not create an extra qualifying slot as Westmeath have already qualified.
The only option for Meath is to qualify for a Leinster final. If that happens then Kildare are in danger unless they also qualify for a Leinster final. If that were to happen then Cork are out of Sam. If, on top of that, Cavan or Down qualified for the Ulster final then Louth would be out. In the unlikely event of Fermanagh also qualifying for the Ulster final, then Donegal would be next to be out. In the exceedingly unlikely event of Tipperary beating Kerry then Armagh would be next to go. Derry, who would be next in line to be out, are guaranteed a Sam spot as either Galway or Roscommon from Division 1 will be a provincial finalist.
CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 103 - 11/04/2023 17:06:04
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Replying To giveitlong: "Don't see any issue with any of these 4 teams being in the TC. You are hardly suggesting any of them would be in the running for SAM?," Agreed.
Also I don't think the goal should be trying to come up with competitions where every team has a shot at winning the championship.
The competition should be about getting more games for teams closer to their level. The likes of Antrim, Carlow, Sligo, Leitrim maybe aren't as good as Kildare or Cavan but they're not so far behind than a match against them is a complete waste of time. Teams need to play against better teams than them to improve.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 12/04/2023 09:54:44
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Replying To Jack L: "This Tailteann Cup could turn into a farce.
The qualifiers were brought in to help the so called weaker counties, to give them a second match. We all know that it is the stronger counties which benefitted from it.
Similarly the TC was brought in to give D3/4 teams a competition which they could compete in rather than suffering big hammerings in the qualifiers.
This year's make up will be (at the moment assuming that these counties do not reach a provincial final.
Meath/Kildare/Clare
Cavan
Fermanagh
Limerick.
Down
Offaly
Top seeds could be Kildare, Cavan, Fermanagh, Limerick.
What chance has a lower D3 or a D4 side against these counties.
What will happen is that one of these four could win it this year, and will use the league next season and maybe provincial series for building towards the All Ireland series.
In my opinion the TC should be limited to bottom 12 teams in the league (and New York). It would give these counties something realistic to aim for." I'd agree on the bottom 12 being TC. Fact is, even looking at who might be in it this year, is that a team either who survived Division 2 or got promoted to Division 2 will likely be the winner of it. What exactly does this do for the teams toward the bottom? This was all set for them to challenge, but this is still too big a jump for them. Bottom 12 plus NY would be fine and would have them able to challenge
And I wouldn't be a fan of another middle tier that has been mentioned. At least not yet while we bed down the issues of what we have currently. Take out the very top 3 or 4 teams, the middle 16 from bottom of Division 1 to top of Division 3 are not far off the same level who could all beat each other on any given day. A 20 team Championship would be easily done, and wouldn't have as much messing about as what we're seeing this year with decently rated teams (either staying in Div2 or getting promoted to it) missing out due to quirks of the draw elsewhere or such.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 12/04/2023 12:56:58
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Replying To CeachtPeile: " Replying To Bawner: "As things stand, for any given year, only the 8 division 1 teams and top 3 in division 2 are guaranteed places in the All Ireland series. Tailteann cup winners take a 12th slot and the 4 provincial finalists also guaranteed a spot. So potentially 5 teams from Div3/4 can leapfrog teams in division 2.
For avoidance of doubt, teams promoted from Div 3 outrank teams relegated from Div 2. This was evidenced last season where Offaly and Down (relegated) played in Tailteann while Limerick and Louth (promoted) played in Sam Maguire.
We already know that either Sligo or NY will get a spot in All Ireland, and either Clare or Limerick (who were both relegated to Division 3) will get a spot from Munster final. So that leaves 2 spots to be filled. Current ranking for those 2 spots is as follows:
Cork
Kildare
Meath
Cavan
Fermanagh
Using rankings only
The only way Meath/Cavan/Fermanagh will get to play in Sam Maguire is to get to their provincial final. If one of them does, then that bumps Kildare down to Tailteann (unless Kildare also get to Leinster final). If either of Kildare or Meath get to Leinster final AND Cavan, Fermanagh or Down get to Ulster final, then both those finalists leapfrog Cork, who would then play in the Tailteann.
Westmeath
If Westmeath get to the Leinster final, then that frees up another spot from Division 2, because the Tailteann cup winner spot becomes irrelevant. If Kildare are not the other Leinster finalist, it would guarantee Cork's place in the All Ireland. It It could also clear the way for both Kildare and Meath to qualify without having to get to the Leinster final, if things go their way in Ulster." This is wrong on two fronts. (1) There are only seven places guaranteed from the league each year (the first six teams in Division 1 and the Division 2 winner). There are eight places allocated to the provincial finalists and one to the Tailteann Cup winners. (2) Westmeath qualifying for the Leinster final would have no effect other than changing Westmeath's seeding pot from pot 4 to pots 1 or 2. It does not create an extra qualifying slot as Westmeath have already qualified. The only option for Meath is to qualify for a Leinster final. If that happens then Kildare are in danger unless they also qualify for a Leinster final. If that were to happen then Cork are out of Sam. If, on top of that, Cavan or Down qualified for the Ulster final then Louth would be out. In the unlikely event of Fermanagh also qualifying for the Ulster final, then Donegal would be next to be out. In the exceedingly unlikely event of Tipperary beating Kerry then Armagh would be next to go. Derry, who would be next in line to be out, are guaranteed a Sam spot as either Galway or Roscommon from Division 1 will be a provincial finalist."
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2589 - 12/04/2023 14:05:39
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Replying To CastleBravo: "I know lads like being dramatic but where's this insistence that Clare-Cork is a 50/50 game coming from?
Clare have beaten Cork once in the last 90 years, and lost at home by 8 points to them only a few weeks ago. Cork will be warm favourites at worst." How did that turn out?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2589 - 12/04/2023 14:09:01
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I didn't realize 3 teams were coming out of the groups..why??would it not make since just to have the top 2 and 4 quarter finals..let the other 8 play off and have relegation to tc,maybe I'm being controversial.
CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2216 - 12/04/2023 16:47:03
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Replying To CTGAA10: "I didn't realize 3 teams were coming out of the groups..why??would it not make since just to have the top 2 and 4 quarter finals..let the other 8 play off and have relegation to tc,maybe I'm being controversial." I think the idea of 3 emerging from the group is to keep all games meaningful and have no dead rubber games
Fkd12 (Louth) - Posts: 147 - 12/04/2023 17:21:54
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Replying To Fkd12: "I think the idea of 3 emerging from the group is to keep all games meaningful and have no dead rubber games" That is the idea. Dead rubbers can still occur with the current format though.
Seed 1. Dublin
Seed 2. Sligo
Seed 3. Mayo
Seed 4. Westmeath
1. Dublin win at home to Mayo and away to Westmeath.
2. Sligo lose at home to Westmeath and away to Mayo.
Dublin - 4 points
Mayo - 2 points
Westmeath - 2 points
Sligo - 0 points
Sligo play Dublin in Round 3 where Dublin have won the ground and Sligo are already eliminated. Granted Mayo play Westmeath for a home preliminary quarter-final. Enough of an incentive?
Now, if provincial winners are Seed 1 and the rest are seeded on league ranking:
Seed 1. Dublin
Seed 2. Mayo
Seed 3. Armagh
Seed 4. Sligo
1. Dublin beat Armagh at home and Sligo away.
2. Mayo beat Sligo at home and Armagh away.
Dublin - 4 points
Mayo - 4 points
Armagh - 0 points
Sligo - 0 points
Dublin play Mayo in Round 3 where the winner advances to the quarter-finals. Armagh play Sligo in Round 3 where the winner advances to the preliminary quarter-finals.
Summary:
1. A low league ranked county as provincial runners-up and Seed 2 increase the possibility of dead rubbers.
2. A lower league ranked county as provincial runners-up and Seed 4 increases the possibility of more to play for in Round 3.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 12/04/2023 17:46:02
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Replying To Fkd12: "I think the idea of 3 emerging from the group is to keep all games meaningful and have no dead rubber games" 24 matches to elliminate 4 teams
Jack L (None) - Posts: 3099 - 12/04/2023 18:12:23
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Apologies for my error. Jaysus, how could I get it so wrong!!
Too much lemonade on the weekend I think...
Thanks all for the clarity.
Bawner (Sligo) - Posts: 39 - 12/04/2023 18:30:25
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