National Forum

All Ireland Club Final, Kilmacud V Glen (Derry)

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Replying To MachaireConnacht:  "Off the Ball really pushing Glen's case and calling out the GAA and even Kilmacud to step up.

Interesting point should team chance their arm and leave on the 16th man in the dying seconds when the GAA clearly don't want to get involved?"
When the referee realised that the substituted player had not gone off, what should he have done, the game was still on at that stage, what rule should the ref follow.
In 2021 the referee ordered a missed Mayo 45 to be retaken when he realised "Mayo" had 16 players on the field even though the offending Mayoman was almost off and a long way behind the play, this decision cost Dublin a place in the final and there was SFA from the sports journalists about it.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 677 - 24/01/2023 13:39:52    2453951

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Replying To tribesman123:  "Totally agree with the last point. Absolutely no doubt that if it was the other way round the replay would already be scheduled.

I dont think Glen will appeal - they seem to be going for the honourable route and taking this on the chin, kudos to them for doing that.

However, RULES ARE RULES. There will be an asterix on this all ireland for crokes if there isnt justice, unfortunately"
They'll appeal alright. But they're highlighting the fact it shouldn't be up to them and will wait until the last minute.

They'd be mad not to, a rule broken and God knows when they'll get a chance again at an All Ireland. They won't lose any 'honour' appealing. They're totally within their right.

This is controversial but Meath lost honour in 2010. Laois gave Carlow a rematch for the point that never was in 1995. Meath came out of 2010 badly. No two ways about it. Even Trevor Giles and ex players came out and said so. Most neutrals were delighted when Meath were beaten by Kildare in 2010.

CC2020 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 173 - 24/01/2023 13:43:21    2453954

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "Basically, in this case, no.
According to the Irish Times (Salient points highlighted in bold by me):

"Although Glen also announced that it would take some further time "to ascertain our stance going forward," the deadline for any objection is Wednesday, within 72 hours of the match.

The rule book is nonetheless clear that the penalties for fielding more players than allowed are imposed "on proven objection".
The GAA has made no statement on the matter but is awaiting the decision from Glen. It is believed that the report of referee Derek O'Mahoney has been received with no further light being shed on the controversy.

Should the matter be progressed, Croke Park's Central Competitions Control Committee would have access to audio links between the match officials, which would include Glen's contention that they had asked the fourth official to have the 45 at the end of the match retaken.

There is a reluctance to launch an investigation as the infraction is clear and obvious with 16 players visible as the last play of the match takes place.

Referees' decisions are not disputable when it comes to match outcomes even if a mistake has been made. That was established by the DRA in the matter of Fr Casey's GAA club in Limerick back in 2005.

That does not however apply to situations like this, breach of match regulations, when the primary mistake is by the team itself in not making sure that they don't have too many players on the field.

As the decision was awaited on Monday there were indications that should an objection be lodged, a rematch will be ordered. It is accordingly up to Glen if they wish to pursue that. They have three days to do so.""
It would be interesting to see the referee's report. He was aware of the incident and ordered the substituted player off the pitch prior to final kickout.
If he makes no references to it in his report, then I cannot see the CCCC intervening unless there is an objection. I think that the CCCC can only review disciplinary issues on the field of play.

Perhaps in light of this and other technicalities which has arisen in the recent pass, the role of the CCCC should be reviewed. Could be a very busy time for them.

Congress can only review this when the motion is submitted to them.

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B&G (Longford) - Posts: 276 - 24/01/2023 13:52:25    2453957

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Replying To Hawkeye2:  "I know Brolly usually likes to stir it up, but he is spot on in this case. The GAA 's stance on this is pathetic and really paints the authorities in a bad a light. Given their current position , they should republish the rule book and clearly mark which rules are not actually rules and in fact are only suggestions. i.e. we suggest this is how things work but when push comes to shove we'll let ye sort it out among yourselves Don't come near us on these ones unless you have an objection.

Also , what other "rules" fall under the "we're not doing anything unless you object category"?"
Just the ones that mention "objection" or "objecting." Not that difficult really,

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2554 - 24/01/2023 14:03:33    2453960

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Replying To CCFabu:  "I can't believe anyone is arguing this shouldn't be replayed at minimum. The GAA not taking the lead on this is laughable and pathetic."
"At minimum."

So you think the team that won should be made lose over what was an officiating error? Glen are not claiming that, because they are not claiming that they were beaten because of that error.

They do have a case, but not to have the match result reversed in their favour, as much as the anti Dubs might wish.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2554 - 24/01/2023 14:06:23    2453962

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I reckon it's about time somebody addressed the accusations that GAA top brass are shirking responsibility by saying it's up to Glen to lodge an appeal.

That's actually the only way that the Rule Book allows for such an appeal to be made, or any action to be taken:
An Objection to the award of a Game may be made on behalf of a Team that participated in the Game concerned by the relevant Secretary. An objection may not be made otherwise by a member or any third party.

Rather than shirking responsibility, they're actually acting properly by pointing out to Glen that the only way the Rule Book allows action to be taken is if they (Glen) lodge an appeal themselves.

However, that doesn't change the fact that the Rule Book should allow for action to be initiated by others (such as CCC) in such clearcut cases. But right now, it doesn't. And the top brass can't act outside of the Rule Book.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2245 - 24/01/2023 14:25:29    2453969

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  ""At minimum."

So you think the team that won should be made lose over what was an officiating error? Glen are not claiming that, because they are not claiming that they were beaten because of that error.

They do have a case, but not to have the match result reversed in their favour, as much as the anti Dubs might wish."
Do you think there might be a conspiracy at play here?

greatpoint (USA) - Posts: 427 - 24/01/2023 14:28:58    2453971

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According to Irish Examiner it's not mentioned in referee's report which is surprising and doesn't help the Glen case. Hard to fathom why ref didn't mention it as he was totally innocent of any mistake, also difficult to know how John Fogarty in Examiner seems to know this as referee's report is surely only seen by a couple of people. It's not the first time Fogarty has inside knowledge of refereeing matters.

Claretandblue (Westmeath) - Posts: 1489 - 24/01/2023 14:35:09    2453974

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I couldnt give a toss who wins this all ireland (or any garlic football game for that matter) but my major concern is what ever happens will set a precedent that may be used in hurling in the future re the 16th man. Therefore I think it has to be replayed.

clare_sparrow (Galway) - Posts: 425 - 24/01/2023 14:37:41    2453975

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A replay is the only fair and just outcome in my opinion. The GAA have not covered themselves in glory so far here at all, the decision should be taken out of the clubs' hands and a replay ordered.

Failing that, Glen should lodge their formal objection under protest, and they will have the support of the vast majority of GAA people throughout the country. The GAA will then have its hand forced and with no rule or clause to hide behind..... a replay will be ordered.

LetterkennyMan (Donegal) - Posts: 393 - 24/01/2023 14:38:06    2453976

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "I reckon it's about time somebody addressed the accusations that GAA top brass are shirking responsibility by saying it's up to Glen to lodge an appeal.

That's actually the only way that the Rule Book allows for such an appeal to be made, or any action to be taken:
An Objection to the award of a Game may be made on behalf of a Team that participated in the Game concerned by the relevant Secretary. An objection may not be made otherwise by a member or any third party.

Rather than shirking responsibility, they're actually acting properly by pointing out to Glen that the only way the Rule Book allows action to be taken is if they (Glen) lodge an appeal themselves.

However, that doesn't change the fact that the Rule Book should allow for action to be initiated by others (such as CCC) in such clearcut cases. But right now, it doesn't. And the top brass can't act outside of the Rule Book."
Don't be talking sense now Pikeman,

One of best comments I heard on all of this - in which there are NO winners at this stage- was chap who said that everything now seems to descend into soundbites that are only marginally connected to the facts.

Which include the relevant rule as quoted, and the undoubted fact that Glen have a case. However, as shown it is one they have to make themselves,

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2554 - 24/01/2023 14:46:27    2453977

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Replying To greatpoint:  "Do you think there might be a conspiracy at play here?"
I am not the one alleging that there is! That's all on the other side.

Not on the part of Glen. Two teams are basically innocent and I have consistently agreed that Glen have a case, but as Pikeman and others - including chap here who was on CCCC - have pointed out, the Rule is pretty clear. Croke Park can only act on an objection and they have held that line consistently.

I imagine Glen will appeal, and that they will win that appeal and that there will be a replay. I also imagine that Glen be far less enthusiastic about this than some of the wailers from the interweb, including a certain pundit who is the epitome of the politician who is alleged to have asked what way the mob was heading so that he could lead them there.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2554 - 24/01/2023 14:51:40    2453982

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A replay is the only fair and just outcome in my opinion. The GAA have not covered themselves in glory so far here at all, the decision should be taken out of the clubs' hands and a replay ordered.

Failing that, Glen should lodge their formal objection under protest, and they will have the support of the vast majority of GAA people throughout the country. The GAA will then have its hand forced and with no rule or clause to hide behind..... a replay will be ordered.

LetterkennyMan (Donegal) - Posts: 393 - 24/01/2023 14:52:13    2453983

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I'm hoping glen lodge an objection..this will force the Gaa to make a bloody decision..not a word from Larry mc carthy on the matter..he's suppose to be the top man of organization..the Gaa havnt been slow in putting up prices for people going to league matches,but can't make a decision on this..I have absolutely nothing against crokes but rules are rules..

CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2214 - 24/01/2023 15:01:23    2453986

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  ""At minimum."

So you think the team that won should be made lose over what was an officiating error? Glen are not claiming that, because they are not claiming that they were beaten because of that error.

They do have a case, but not to have the match result reversed in their favour, as much as the anti Dubs might wish."
Yes, it was an officiating error but Crokes were also guilty of a very basic error - you can't play with 16 players.

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 542 - 24/01/2023 15:07:35    2453987

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Replying To LetterkennyMan:  "A replay is the only fair and just outcome in my opinion. The GAA have not covered themselves in glory so far here at all, the decision should be taken out of the clubs' hands and a replay ordered.

Failing that, Glen should lodge their formal objection under protest, and they will have the support of the vast majority of GAA people throughout the country. The GAA will then have its hand forced and with no rule or clause to hide behind..... a replay will be ordered."
I think the GAA will fine Croke's as it's in the rule book and that will be the end of it. Remember team's , if your a point or two up in dying seconds and there's a 50 against you, throw on an extra player.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2012 - 24/01/2023 15:08:17    2453988

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If Glen are so annoyed let them object and quit fooling around the thing? It is dragging on now and if they want a replay please object soon and get it done with as it is very tiresome at this stage. I think Malachy O Rourke has stated that he does not want a replay so doubt the club will go against Malacher

lusciousleitrim (Leitrim) - Posts: 7 - 24/01/2023 15:22:40    2453995

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Replying To LetterkennyMan:  "A replay is the only fair and just outcome in my opinion. The GAA have not covered themselves in glory so far here at all, the decision should be taken out of the clubs' hands and a replay ordered.

Failing that, Glen should lodge their formal objection under protest, and they will have the support of the vast majority of GAA people throughout the country. The GAA will then have its hand forced and with no rule or clause to hide behind..... a replay will be ordered."
And hopefully Glen won't turn up for the replay and that will show up the GAA for what they really are.

Breffni1969 (Cavan) - Posts: 510 - 24/01/2023 15:24:18    2453996

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "I reckon it's about time somebody addressed the accusations that GAA top brass are shirking responsibility by saying it's up to Glen to lodge an appeal.

That's actually the only way that the Rule Book allows for such an appeal to be made, or any action to be taken:
An Objection to the award of a Game may be made on behalf of a Team that participated in the Game concerned by the relevant Secretary. An objection may not be made otherwise by a member or any third party.

Rather than shirking responsibility, they're actually acting properly by pointing out to Glen that the only way the Rule Book allows action to be taken is if they (Glen) lodge an appeal themselves.

However, that doesn't change the fact that the Rule Book should allow for action to be initiated by others (such as CCC) in such clearcut cases. But right now, it doesn't. And the top brass can't act outside of the Rule Book."
Is there no rule saying that Football is a 15 a side game? And what is the penalty if that rule is broken?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11842 - 24/01/2023 15:37:35    2454002

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Replying To clare_sparrow:  "I couldnt give a toss who wins this all ireland (or any garlic football game for that matter) but my major concern is what ever happens will set a precedent that may be used in hurling in the future re the 16th man. Therefore I think it has to be replayed."
The hurling man speaketh. It shall therefore be done. Thank you for guiding us, hurling man.
I agree with you by the way that it should b3 replayed.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2039 - 24/01/2023 15:41:14    2454003

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