National Forum

All Ireland Club Final, Kilmacud V Glen (Derry)

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Plenty of blame to go around here.

GAA for putting it on Glen to decide, they done similar to Antrim for the Christy Ring a number of years ago. If I remember 2010 correctly Louth objected but it fell on deaf ears.
It should be simple any final decided by a score with the last play of a game should be reviewed, for administration errors such as an extra sub, sub not coming off or an incorrect score. If a team make an extra sub or a sub doesn't come off and there's 3 or less points in it then they should be fined and the game replayed. For incorrect scores they decide the outcome of a match, there should be a replay.

Ref and his officials, it's not an easy job but the sideline official or linesman needs to stop letting subs on if a player hasn't come off. I have seen it plenty of times at club matches where there are 16 men on a pitch because one sub comes on too early and the other fella doesn't know to come off.

Crokes management, they were one play away from winning an Ireland, surely a selector should have ran down and pulled Mullin off. If it was announced by the PA system Dara Mullin is also at fault here, "substitution on the Kilmacud Crokes teams no.14 Dara Mullin is being replaced by..." he could have cost his team an AI by not going off

UsernameInvalid (Meath) - Posts: 420 - 24/01/2023 10:18:05    2453852

Link

Replying To Greengrass:  "Can someone please clarify whether or not The CCCC can initiate an investigation into this without Glen having to appeal."
Basically, in this case, no.
According to the Irish Times (Salient points highlighted in bold by me):

"Although Glen also announced that it would take some further time "to ascertain our stance going forward," the deadline for any objection is Wednesday, within 72 hours of the match.

The rule book is nonetheless clear that the penalties for fielding more players than allowed are imposed "on proven objection".
The GAA has made no statement on the matter but is awaiting the decision from Glen. It is believed that the report of referee Derek O'Mahoney has been received with no further light being shed on the controversy.

Should the matter be progressed, Croke Park's Central Competitions Control Committee would have access to audio links between the match officials, which would include Glen's contention that they had asked the fourth official to have the 45 at the end of the match retaken.

There is a reluctance to launch an investigation as the infraction is clear and obvious with 16 players visible as the last play of the match takes place.

Referees' decisions are not disputable when it comes to match outcomes even if a mistake has been made. That was established by the DRA in the matter of Fr Casey's GAA club in Limerick back in 2005.

That does not however apply to situations like this, breach of match regulations, when the primary mistake is by the team itself in not making sure that they don't have too many players on the field.

As the decision was awaited on Monday there were indications that should an objection be lodged, a rematch will be ordered. It is accordingly up to Glen if they wish to pursue that. They have three days to do so."

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2866 - 24/01/2023 10:28:31    2453858

Link

G.A.A.[C.C.] should take control and apply the rules, offer a replay if that is what it states is the solution in such situations
or award the game to the complying team, no matter what happens now its a devalued title because of this mess.

backtooldwall (Galway) - Posts: 162 - 24/01/2023 10:31:02    2453860

Link

I was very disappointed with RTE's coverage of this debacle on rte radio 1 this morning, Darren Frehill was implying Crokes were the better team…..and …..

cuchulainn35 (Armagh) - Posts: 1690 - 24/01/2023 10:49:30    2453871

Link

Replying To ballydalane:  "How is it a "legitimate" substitution if substituted player doesn't bother his hole coming off?!"
The referees hand was still up indicating the substitutions were still being made when the Glen player took the F45. Referee should not have allowed the F45 be taken until the substitution was complete. He also could have ordered it to be retaken after. It is poor officiating but this happens in every match and you cant have a replay for every match where an official has made an error.

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4655 - 24/01/2023 10:52:52    2453873

Link

Replying To Viking66:  "Granted the 17th Crokes man on the pitch wasn't interfering with play. But the 16th? An extra man in the small or large rectangle wasn't interfering with a goal attempt? Are you for real Zinny?! In any case it's irrelevant. The rules state teams have no more than 15 players playing on the pitch. Punishment is a fine, a replay or a forfeit of the game."
I counted 28 players ( but must have been 29) in front of the kicker, did he count the players and say damm I can't do what I wanted to do because there is one too many players in there. The player in question was on the right side of the goal standing on the goal line, Glen went short to the left and their player got off an amazing shot that was close to going in. Now had the Glen 3 got his hand to it to deflect it in he was in the square. The KC player was still on the line at the far side of the goal. Did he influence the decision on any of the Glen players. They had two kicks of the ball and almost scored, if that is interference then it worked against them.
Rules were broken however the penalty is dependent on the circumstances. It is very hard to say based on what actually happened that KC gained any advantage based on what actually happened in those 30 seconds.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 2025 - 24/01/2023 11:03:20    2453877

Link

After the 2010 Leinster Final fiasco the GAA tried to throw Meath GAA under the bus by saying it would be up to Meath (the perceived sinners) to offer a replay. Now they try to paint Glen (the perceived sinned-against) into a corner by saying they need to request an investigation. If there was consistency then either they should be calling for Crokes to offer a replay or they should have acted upon Louth's protests in 2010 and ordered a replay themselves (or just chalked off that goal as they showed last year with the Hawkeye error that they could change the referee's score during the match). Either way they just absolve themselves of any responsibility.

It's only the end of January and we've had this and the O'Byrne cup furore. Is there any other sporting organisation in the world whose competitions are as likely to end up in controversy as the GAA?

Greenfield (Meath) - Posts: 524 - 24/01/2023 11:13:18    2453879

Link

Replying To Richieq:  "No they can't just as they couldn't do anything in 2010 either, lessons have not been learnt, their own rules are a throwback to the dark ages"
Thanks for that Richieq. Marty Morrissey said on radio this morning that they can investigate it without Glen submitting an appeal. Joe Brolly said the same yesterday . At the very least The CCCC should definitively clarify this.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6181 - 24/01/2023 11:13:57    2453880

Link

Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Apparently not. That is interpretation of rule they are using - that there needs to be an objection.

Got that from someone who has been on such a committee."
Thanks very much Barney.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6181 - 24/01/2023 11:14:47    2453881

Link

It looks like GAA dont want to ruffle the Dubs all the subs in the last minute pure gamemanship and desperation from the Cokes

highdropingball (Donegal) - Posts: 116 - 24/01/2023 11:45:39    2453889

Link

Replying To Greengrass:  "Thanks very much Barney."
Pontius Pilate without the basin

SixtiesKid (Galway) - Posts: 357 - 24/01/2023 11:47:36    2453891

Link

Replying To zinny:  "I counted 28 players ( but must have been 29) in front of the kicker, did he count the players and say damm I can't do what I wanted to do because there is one too many players in there. The player in question was on the right side of the goal standing on the goal line, Glen went short to the left and their player got off an amazing shot that was close to going in. Now had the Glen 3 got his hand to it to deflect it in he was in the square. The KC player was still on the line at the far side of the goal. Did he influence the decision on any of the Glen players. They had two kicks of the ball and almost scored, if that is interference then it worked against them.
Rules were broken however the penalty is dependent on the circumstances. It is very hard to say based on what actually happened that KC gained any advantage based on what actually happened in those 30 seconds."
It dosent matter if the 16th man was on his phone texting he shouldnt be on the field

highdropingball (Donegal) - Posts: 116 - 24/01/2023 11:48:27    2453892

Link

Replying To highdropingball:  "It looks like GAA dont want to ruffle the Dubs all the subs in the last minute pure gamemanship and desperation from the Cokes"
Well done Admin for allowing such a salient post

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 24/01/2023 11:52:31    2453894

Link

Replying To SixtiesKid:  "Pontius Pilate without the basin"
Looks that way.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6181 - 24/01/2023 11:53:50    2453895

Link

Replying To Greenfield:  "After the 2010 Leinster Final fiasco the GAA tried to throw Meath GAA under the bus by saying it would be up to Meath (the perceived sinners) to offer a replay. Now they try to paint Glen (the perceived sinned-against) into a corner by saying they need to request an investigation. If there was consistency then either they should be calling for Crokes to offer a replay or they should have acted upon Louth's protests in 2010 and ordered a replay themselves (or just chalked off that goal as they showed last year with the Hawkeye error that they could change the referee's score during the match). Either way they just absolve themselves of any responsibility.

It's only the end of January and we've had this and the O'Byrne cup furore. Is there any other sporting organisation in the world whose competitions are as likely to end up in controversy as the GAA?"
Well GAA often get bad press. The Maghera club is called after a Presbyterian named Walter Graham, or "Watty" Graham. GAA clubs in N.I often accused by Southern Loyalists of only naming their clubs after Irish Catholics. There will be an objection and probably a replay. So relax.

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2625 - 24/01/2023 11:55:58    2453896

Link

If their is a replay and as it was no fault of Glen's or Croke's are they going to let supporters in for free. This could be the reason they are slow to react. They know they are responsible so they daren't charge.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2383 - 24/01/2023 11:58:05    2453900

Link

A joke organisation that is the GAA, constantly pretending to champion the lifeblood of the association, the clubs..... Another example of not giving a fiddlers elbow for clubs. Refusing to request for review from Glen, why not just come out and say object lads cos we are going to continue to ignore the elephant in the room. Shame on croke park, CCC, mc carthy, Ryan, McKenna McGill the whole lot of them yeee are a joke lads , hang your heads in shame, a far cry from the legacy of the likes of Davin, Croke and Hogan left behind him.

totalrecall (Leitrim) - Posts: 1113 - 24/01/2023 11:58:10    2453901

Link

Replying To Greenfield:  "After the 2010 Leinster Final fiasco the GAA tried to throw Meath GAA under the bus by saying it would be up to Meath (the perceived sinners) to offer a replay. Now they try to paint Glen (the perceived sinned-against) into a corner by saying they need to request an investigation. If there was consistency then either they should be calling for Crokes to offer a replay or they should have acted upon Louth's protests in 2010 and ordered a replay themselves (or just chalked off that goal as they showed last year with the Hawkeye error that they could change the referee's score during the match). Either way they just absolve themselves of any responsibility.

It's only the end of January and we've had this and the O'Byrne cup furore. Is there any other sporting organisation in the world whose competitions are as likely to end up in controversy as the GAA?"
Spot on, the GAA need to start making decisions and stop putting in to the hands of the teams involved. The Kilmacud/Glen situation is a clear violation of rules, at the very least it should be investigated without the need for either team to lodge a complaint to instigate one. Wouldn't be at all surprised if the GAA try to throw Kilmacud under the bus by leaving it up to them if they want to offer a replay.

2010 was different in the sense it was just terrible referring to allow the goal, the same way a referee could wrongly award a penalty or wrongly disallow a goal, the referee just got it very wrong. It should have been the catalyst for some kind of of VAR like system, but as you said, the GAA put it on Meath rather than sorting the issues surrounding it themselves.

But there's been too many incidents in the last month or so, the O'Byrne Cup now this - the GAA need to step in and just sort it out, and stop trying to shift the responsibility to others. Everyone knows the right decision here is to force a replay at the very least, there's grounds to overturn the result but I don't think that would be fair either as it was clearly an officiating error.

hyperache (Meath) - Posts: 273 - 24/01/2023 11:59:34    2453903

Link

Replying To zinny:  "I counted 28 players ( but must have been 29) in front of the kicker, did he count the players and say damm I can't do what I wanted to do because there is one too many players in there. The player in question was on the right side of the goal standing on the goal line, Glen went short to the left and their player got off an amazing shot that was close to going in. Now had the Glen 3 got his hand to it to deflect it in he was in the square. The KC player was still on the line at the far side of the goal. Did he influence the decision on any of the Glen players. They had two kicks of the ball and almost scored, if that is interference then it worked against them.
Rules were broken however the penalty is dependent on the circumstances. It is very hard to say based on what actually happened that KC gained any advantage based on what actually happened in those 30 seconds."
You don't get it, do you Zinny?! The very fact that Crokes had a 16th player on the goal line freed up one of his team mates to mark an extra Glen player. How is that not affecting the play or impacting Glen's ability to get a goal?!

Imagine Leinster pushing for a try in added time of the European Cup final against Toulouse, and Toulouse "accidentally" had 16 men on the field! And Toulouse's defence was "ze extra man was on ze other wing, so it doesn't matter". Eh, yeah, but it meant you were freed up to put an extra defender where the action was! Madness!

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1257 - 24/01/2023 12:04:04    2453905

Link

Replying To bad.monkey:  "The referees hand was still up indicating the substitutions were still being made when the Glen player took the F45. Referee should not have allowed the F45 be taken until the substitution was complete. He also could have ordered it to be retaken after. It is poor officiating but this happens in every match and you cant have a replay for every match where an official has made an error."
It's not poor officiating. Football is a 15 aside game. It's in the rules. A team with 16 players on the pitch is therefore technically not playing football. And therefore can't win a football game.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 16535 - 24/01/2023 12:05:11    2453906

Link