National Forum

All Ireland Club Final, Kilmacud V Glen (Derry)

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Replying To oneoff:  "Serious question. If it happened the other way around would you be as outraged?"
Who's outraged? And if it had happened the other way, would you care?

points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 303 - 23/01/2023 20:15:30    2453806

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The issue was caused by the practice - indulged in by all teams, without exception - of running needless subs to slow the game down in the closing minutes when you're defending a narrow lead.

Obviously different if a team is miles in front and is just giving the subs a run out.

The problem is where the chasing team is pushing hard, on the attack, and then we have these momentum killing substitutions.

If, in that latter context, a team brings on a sub in the last 5 minutes, add on the time it takes to make the substitution, and add an extra minute on top.

Also, if the team defending a narrow lead has a major spate of "injuries" in the closing minutes, get a stretcher out right away, and take them to the sideline for any treatment, but do not stop the game for such pantomimes.

points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 303 - 23/01/2023 20:26:49    2453807

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Replying To Ulsterman:  "Some poisonous, hateful stuff being thrown about on social media about Glen and "Ulster/Northern" teams over this. It's nothing to do with geography, it's about rules, regulations and procedures but that hasn't stopped the bile and hatred pouring out about "Nordies". It's vile and shameful. 32 county Association my ****!!"
Majority of people backing Glen on this and thinking its unfair GAA hasn't sorted it themselves.

Most people not blaming crokes either a genuine mistake

I'm not saying there's no hatred. I haven't seen it any but it's definitely in the small minority

Most people backing the northern team in this and I've seen plenty of Dubs say replay is correct decision too

galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1704 - 23/01/2023 20:30:17    2453808

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Replying To dubdec99:  "If they're going down the route of a replay then just replay from when the 45 was awarded, Kilmacud didn't have any numerical advanatge/infringement prior to then so why replay the whole game?"
How can you recreate the conditions that existed when the 45 was being taken. Not possible. If there's a replay, it will be a full match. Glen are in a difficult position because the gaa have passed the buck to them.

endgame (Roscommon) - Posts: 2515 - 23/01/2023 20:40:56    2453811

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Replying To dubdec99:  "If they're going down the route of a replay then just replay from when the 45 was awarded, Kilmacud didn't have any numerical advanatge/infringement prior to then so why replay the whole game?"
Why , because the rules of the game say so, if no replay we may as well rip up the rule book and start again, the rules were clearly broken, and to be honest dissapointed the GAA has ent acted before now,

germac (Down) - Posts: 572 - 23/01/2023 20:53:46    2453815

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The if, why or how it happened don't matter. They had 16 v 15 on the pitch during play, end of.

Also doesn't matter that Mullin didn't touch it. He was contributing to the Crokes defensive structure on that last play. We can't just re-write the rules to something like '' 16 players are allowed on the pitch so long as the 16th player doesn't touch the ball''. That's stupid.

Should be a replay and the GAA should have annouced it last night.

Adler (Monaghan) - Posts: 754 - 23/01/2023 21:52:33    2453821

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Just read a good suggestion. Galway and Wexford aren't playing the Walsh Cup final as a double header with the NFL Dublin v Kildare game at Croke Park this weekend as we are playing Galway in the League on the 4th, so that's going to double up as the Walsh Cup final.
So there is the perfect slot for the Glen v Crokes replay!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 16535 - 24/01/2023 07:48:51    2453823

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It was a decent game with an exciting finish. Glen weren't far away from nicking a goal towards the end - they probably should have taken their points on a few occasions. More of the same again for the potential replay, which will hopefully be played in a good spirit

stranmillis29 (Antrim) - Posts: 788 - 24/01/2023 08:03:07    2453825

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Replying To hyperache:  "
Replying To BarneyGrant:  "I meant to say, obviously, with regard to the CR replay, that unlike that match, you could not say that the result would likely to have been different yesterday."
Of course you can, it's not as if Kilmacud were 12 points up and out of sight when it happened, it was a one score game. The team chasing the game winning score were denied a fair chance to get it as the opposing team had 17 players on the pitch.

Were they going to get the goal at the end to win it? I mean probably not, but it's sport - anything can happen and a lot stranger things have happened. But they were not given a fair opportunity to run the last play. The game has to be replayed at the very least"
We need look no further than last year's final when kilcoo scored a last gasp goal to win

Suas Sios (None) - Posts: 1558 - 24/01/2023 08:33:36    2453826

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Replying To bad.monkey:  "I don't think Crokes did anything wrong, they made two legitimate substitutions. The referee should not have allowed the 45 to be taken until the substituted player left the pitch. Officials made an error, it happens. Talk of a replay is silly stuff."
How is it a "legitimate" substitution if substituted player doesn't bother his hole coming off?!

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1257 - 24/01/2023 09:27:28    2453829

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Id say the Crokes players are in the steamroom rn sweating the beer out in anticipation of a replay

RobertBoucher (Wexford) - Posts: 10 - 24/01/2023 09:35:06    2453831

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Replying To bad.monkey:  "I don't think Crokes did anything wrong, they made two legitimate substitutions. The referee should not have allowed the 45 to be taken until the substituted player left the pitch. Officials made an error, it happens. Talk of a replay is silly stuff."
The rules state the new lad shouldn't come on until the other player has left the field of play. You could perhaps argue that as the 17th player was on his way off the pitch that that was OK. But the 16th was standing on the goal line next to the keeper. The lad replacing him shouldn't even have been on the pitch yet. Let alone in the large rectangle preparing to block the ball as well.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 16535 - 24/01/2023 09:35:50    2453832

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Replying To Captainfantastic:  "Crazy if this goes to a replay. Time for GAA to follow soccers lead on substitutions - old player off the field before new player enters the field."
That is the rule as it is

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 16535 - 24/01/2023 09:36:28    2453833

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Replying To FatLadySinging:  "Well done to Kilmacud Crokes and Shane Walsh on winning the All Ireland. Well deserved after the trauma of last year's robbery by Kilcoo. The Glen must be joking looking for a replay on such flimsy and questionable grounds. Substitutions are the responsibility of the 4th official. They should take their beating like men and resolve to try to win it again next year as Kilmacud had to do after last year's last second defeat up. I thought Crokes made a mistake in playing Paul Mannion from the start after such a long layoff. His presence with Shane Walsh seemed to cause confusion as regards free-taking etc and perhaps resulted in Walsh not performing as well as previous games, although still making huge contribution."
The Glen haven't said they are looking for a replay yet. Most other GAA fans seem to think they deserve one.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 16535 - 24/01/2023 09:37:27    2453834

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Replying To Suas Sios:  "
Replying To hyperache:  "[quote=BarneyGrant:  "I meant to say, obviously, with regard to the CR replay, that unlike that match, you could not say that the result would likely to have been different yesterday."
Of course you can, it's not as if Kilmacud were 12 points up and out of sight when it happened, it was a one score game. The team chasing the game winning score were denied a fair chance to get it as the opposing team had 17 players on the pitch.

Were they going to get the goal at the end to win it? I mean probably not, but it's sport - anything can happen and a lot stranger things have happened. But they were not given a fair opportunity to run the last play. The game has to be replayed at the very least"
We need look no further than last year's final when kilcoo scored a last gasp goal to win"]And Ballygunner

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 16535 - 24/01/2023 09:40:17    2453835

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Replying To FatLadySinging:  "Well done to Kilmacud Crokes and Shane Walsh on winning the All Ireland. Well deserved after the trauma of last year's robbery by Kilcoo. The Glen must be joking looking for a replay on such flimsy and questionable grounds. Substitutions are the responsibility of the 4th official. They should take their beating like men and resolve to try to win it again next year as Kilmacud had to do after last year's last second defeat up. I thought Crokes made a mistake in playing Paul Mannion from the start after such a long layoff. His presence with Shane Walsh seemed to cause confusion as regards free-taking etc and perhaps resulted in Walsh not performing as well as previous games, although still making huge contribution."
I'd be careful with those suggestions if I were you as a Galway man - Glen might "resolve to try to win it" next year by going after the best forward in your club in the next transfer window!

benched (Tyrone) - Posts: 534 - 24/01/2023 09:48:32    2453840

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Replying To points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet:  "The issue was caused by the practice - indulged in by all teams, without exception - of running needless subs to slow the game down in the closing minutes when you're defending a narrow lead.

Obviously different if a team is miles in front and is just giving the subs a run out.

The problem is where the chasing team is pushing hard, on the attack, and then we have these momentum killing substitutions.

If, in that latter context, a team brings on a sub in the last 5 minutes, add on the time it takes to make the substitution, and add an extra minute on top.

Also, if the team defending a narrow lead has a major spate of "injuries" in the closing minutes, get a stretcher out right away, and take them to the sideline for any treatment, but do not stop the game for such pantomimes."
Would agree with you on the first point. It is something we see in all games where the winning team throws in subs to break the other team's momentum. The two substitutions were pointless in all fairness and could not even be justified on the basis of giving a few lads a run in a final on the winning team.

So, no wonder there was confusion not least among the Crokes players being subbed off. We would really need to see all the footage of where everyone was from the sideline perspective to determine what the order of battle was, and who was at fault. The only thing you can see on the televised footage is the linesman standing with his flag in line with the ref and where the 45 was to be taken from. Presumably to draw attention to the substitutions, but we don't know.

It is a terrible place for Glen to be placed, as they are not claiming they lost the game over the incident, but they are within their rights to appeal. Don't think anyone be accusing them of being bad losers, Shouldn't be their call, but someone who is well familiar with such matters referred me to the reference in the rule to the need, as GAA are claiming, for there to be an objection.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3688 - 24/01/2023 09:53:54    2453843

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Can someone please clarify whether or not The CCCC can initiate an investigation into this without Glen having to appeal.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6181 - 24/01/2023 10:01:45    2453846

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Can someone please clarify whether or not The CCCC can initiate an investigation into this without Glen having to appeal."
No they can't just as they couldn't do anything in 2010 either, lessons have not been learnt, their own rules are a throwback to the dark ages

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3750 - 24/01/2023 10:16:04    2453850

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Can someone please clarify whether or not The CCCC can initiate an investigation into this without Glen having to appeal."
Apparently not. That is interpretation of rule they are using - that there needs to be an objection.

Got that from someone who has been on such a committee.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3688 - 24/01/2023 10:17:27    2453851

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