National Forum

All Ireland Club Final, Kilmacud V Glen (Derry)

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Replying To points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet:  "The issue was caused by the practice - indulged in by all teams, without exception - of running needless subs to slow the game down in the closing minutes when you're defending a narrow lead.

Obviously different if a team is miles in front and is just giving the subs a run out.

The problem is where the chasing team is pushing hard, on the attack, and then we have these momentum killing substitutions.

If, in that latter context, a team brings on a sub in the last 5 minutes, add on the time it takes to make the substitution, and add an extra minute on top.

Also, if the team defending a narrow lead has a major spate of "injuries" in the closing minutes, get a stretcher out right away, and take them to the sideline for any treatment, but do not stop the game for such pantomimes."
A Northern team would never do that, surely????

StopTheLights (Galway) - Posts: 347 - 25/01/2023 10:44:56    2454110

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Replying To Viking66:  "They shouldn't have had to object. It's bad form out of the GAA that they did. The referee would have called the play back if you are right. He didn't. He didn't even mention that Crokes had 16 men on the pitch in his report so obviously he didn't know."
He obviously did know, he spoke to Dara
Mullin and directed him to the sideline and indeed waited for him to reach the sideline before the last kickout and final whistle. A pity he wasn't as attentive when the substitutions were being made. If indeed he has made no reference to this in his report he has surely compounded his mistake and his match report should be sent back to him to review.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 686 - 25/01/2023 10:49:22    2454111

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If Glen scored a goal in the dying seconds would they have lodged an objection to winning due to Kilmacud having 16 players on the field?
They're only interested in being fair after all.
Thank god we have Northern teams looking out for the integrity of our game.

StopTheLights (Galway) - Posts: 347 - 25/01/2023 10:52:02    2454113

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Replying To bad.monkey:  "Very poor form by Glens objecting. The referees hand was clearly up indicating substitutions were still being made and he tried to take a quick 45 anyway. Ref should have called Glen up on it but didnt. To then object on the back on click bait outrage by Joe Brolly reflects very very badly on Glen."
Clickbait outrage by Brolly? Please don't give that man any more publicity as if he has changed the conversation on the matter. This was discussed on every radio show and podcast going since the match and almost everyone agreed that Glen should lodge an objection. It shouldn't have been left to them to raise it but they are correct to do so.

Crokes are absolutely not an innocent party here either. If you throw on subs to waste time and it isn't done in the correct manner then they played a part. Not just the match officials. Mannion knew exactly what he was doing as well. Absolutely no reason for him to be encroaching in any way. Kilmacud have been silent so far which I am sure is for legal reasons but not a great look at all. If you are entirely innocent you get out and get ahead of the story. A replay is not guaranteed but this has to be dealt with.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7908 - 25/01/2023 11:01:41    2454116

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So here was the headline in a Dublin based national daily paper early this morning "NORTHERN IRELAND team to lodge objection to Croke Park". That tells you everything you need to know. The bitterness and downright hatred shown towards Ulster teams from many within the GAA and in the Southern media is venomous. If a replay comes about Glen should tog out and once the ball is thrown in then walk off the pitch. They will have made their point.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9706 - 25/01/2023 11:01:43    2454117

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It gets interesting now..will the Gaa offer a replay as it states in rules book or will it be a fine??the Gaa can implement stuff when it suits and sometimes in mid season..let's see what leadership they show now..if they offer glen the replay can the club refuse it?can this drag on further if crokes decide they will counter appeal or object..my final thing on this,where do the gpa stand on all this or is it just the inter county scene they worry about??

CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2234 - 25/01/2023 11:01:59    2454118

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Replying To TaytoFoley:  "I don't think this is a good move by Glen. They had multiple goal chances during the game to win it and didn't take them. The mistake was made by officials that did not ensure all substituted players were off the field before the 45 was taken. All that aside, the 16th man did not interfere with play and Glen would not have won the game. Even if Glen get a replay and win it, the whole thing is tarnished for them now at this stage. Posters on here saying "if the boot was on the other foot" are only speaking hypothetically because it is a Dublin club. Where they're from shouldn't come into it. Let it go and move on."
I am inclined to agree with your post Tayto. Glen had chances to win the final, but did not take them.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1751 - 25/01/2023 11:15:17    2454121

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Replay in Clones

highdropingball (Donegal) - Posts: 99 - 25/01/2023 11:22:03    2454123

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "They had to make an objection. It is in the rule. What did you want the "top brass" to say exactly?

Do you expect judges to comment on cases before they are even brought to court?

Most likely be a replay now, so people will have to revert back to focusing on Shane Walsh, or their sponsor or that Crokes don't refuse to take any more kids onto teams..."
Crokes probaly have enough for 2 good senior teams why bring anybody in /

highdropingball (Donegal) - Posts: 99 - 25/01/2023 11:23:59    2454124

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "
Replying To Pikeman96:  "Viking 66 - Is there no rule saying that Football is a 15 a side game? And what is the penalty if that rule is broken?


You know something? We might be into really murky waters here. The Rule Book states that a team shall consist of 15 players. And maybe I've overlooking something, but I don't see anything to explicitly state that only the "team" shall be on the field at any given time, or even as simple as "a match shall be played between two teams".

Have often thought in the past that a good barrister could have a field day with the GAA Rule Book, and I'm thinking it again now."
Further to this - turns out I was overlooking something major all right!

An excerpt from Rule 6.44 from Part 1 of the Rule Book:
(b) (i) A team exceeding the number of players permitted under Rule 2.1 Rules of Specification,
Playing Rules:
(ii) A team exceeding the number of substitutions permitted under Rules 2.4 (i) and (ii) or breaching Rule 2.4 (iv) (b), Rules of Specification, Playing Rules:
Penalties:
On a proven Objection - Award of Game to the Opposing Team, or Replay, or Fine, depending on the circumstances.
On an Inquiry by the Committee-in-Charge - Forfeiture of Game without Award of Game to the Opposing Team, or Replay, or Fine, depending on the circumstances.

I'd just been looking in Part 2, because I knew that's where it says a team shall consist of 15 players, and also where rules regarding substitutions are set out."
If a replay is given then surely the replay will be in Celtic park Derry. Why should Glen travel twice to Dublin to play on a pitch with out grass?

gola (Fermanagh) - Posts: 311 - 25/01/2023 11:31:11    2454127

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "They will revisit it. If Glen appeal there will be a replay.

The difference between them revisiting someone getting a sly dig and this, is that the first concerns a disciplinary issue missed by officials. There is no procedure for the lad who ships the sly dig making any sort of appeal to GAA, Some of course have gone to the civil courts but that's another issue.

Sunday concerns a breach of a rule that specifically refers to the team at the sharp end having the right to appeal, It's not rocket science, I assume they will, and that there will be a replay.

There may well be a case for changing the rule at Congress to allow for action to be taken regardless of whether there is an objection."
I think there is def a case for it.

In 1998 the GAA ordered a replay for the Offaly Clare game. Clare fully cooperated but it was the GAA that drove it.
In 2002 Cork walloped Tipp in the replayed Munster football final but used 6 subs. as far as I remember the rule states that the match should have been awarded to Tipp but I stand to be corrected on that.
To be fair these issues dont regularly happen but surely steps should be put in place to eliminate these issues at this level at this stage.

I can imagine its difficult to get the attention of the player coming off in the pandemonium of a match like that so there def needs to be changes for how it is done.

The GAA had no problem rushing through the hurling penalty rule so something like this needs to be quickly put to bed once and for all - whether that means going down the soccer route for subs and the play being stoppped for a kick-out/puck out or injury, I dont know

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 25/01/2023 11:34:03    2454129

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Replying To TaytoFoley:  "I don't think this is a good move by Glen. They had multiple goal chances during the game to win it and didn't take them. The mistake was made by officials that did not ensure all substituted players were off the field before the 45 was taken. All that aside, the 16th man did not interfere with play and Glen would not have won the game. Even if Glen get a replay and win it, the whole thing is tarnished for them now at this stage. Posters on here saying "if the boot was on the other foot" are only speaking hypothetically because it is a Dublin club. Where they're from shouldn't come into it. Let it go and move on."
While I agree with you that Glen will look back and rue the missed chances,dont know how you can say the 16th player didn't interfere with play.They had 16 players on the pitch hence an extra man so how can they not have an advantage v 15 men?While the officials are getting the blame (rightly so)you do wonder why the Crokes sideline didn't call the player off.I know its heat of battle and so much going on but I'd say the line will be kicking themselves.I do feel sorry for Crokes players won and celebrated winning the all Ireland and now it looks like they will have to do it again.Im not sure Glen will care much if they win the replay as it's now an entirely different game and wont see it as tarnished.Its a real shame a good final ended like this but I suppose strange things happen in sport.

Proudroyal (Meath) - Posts: 258 - 25/01/2023 11:37:39    2454131

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Replying To gola:  "
Replying To Pikeman96:  "[quote=Pikeman96:  "Viking 66 - Is there no rule saying that Football is a 15 a side game? And what is the penalty if that rule is broken?


You know something? We might be into really murky waters here. The Rule Book states that a team shall consist of 15 players. And maybe I've overlooking something, but I don't see anything to explicitly state that only the "team" shall be on the field at any given time, or even as simple as "a match shall be played between two teams".

Have often thought in the past that a good barrister could have a field day with the GAA Rule Book, and I'm thinking it again now."
Further to this - turns out I was overlooking something major all right!

An excerpt from Rule 6.44 from Part 1 of the Rule Book:
(b) (i) A team exceeding the number of players permitted under Rule 2.1 Rules of Specification,
Playing Rules:
(ii) A team exceeding the number of substitutions permitted under Rules 2.4 (i) and (ii) or breaching Rule 2.4 (iv) (b), Rules of Specification, Playing Rules:
Penalties:
On a proven Objection - Award of Game to the Opposing Team, or Replay, or Fine, depending on the circumstances.
On an Inquiry by the Committee-in-Charge - Forfeiture of Game without Award of Game to the Opposing Team, or Replay, or Fine, depending on the circumstances.

I'd just been looking in Part 2, because I knew that's where it says a team shall consist of 15 players, and also where rules regarding substitutions are set out."
If a replay is given then surely the replay will be in Celtic park Derry. Why should Glen travel twice to Dublin to play on a pitch with out grass?"]God no, Owenbeg's far better ground.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2019 - 25/01/2023 11:40:51    2454132

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Is there a deadline now for a decision to be made by the CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

tribesman123 (Galway) - Posts: 36 - 25/01/2023 11:47:22    2454133

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "Was it a woman from Mayo that ignored you or is there some other reason you are like this?"
Ach now with the classy women we have in Ulster I'd hardly need to be heading down that way, I have no problem with Mayo people, what annoys me is the way Rte and most of the media down south slavers over them,
and the fact is they have been perpetual losers, I mean 2 or 3 times you could say you were unlucky or whatever, but to fail to win 12 finals in a row is it? some of them you should have pushed on and won but for whatever reason they found a way to balls it up.
Varley getting sent off in 2017 springs to mind, it wasn't even a decent punch, I don't think he knew what he was trying to do himself.
What Keegan done, throwing his Gps at Dean Rock, you can't tell me that's not a low life thing to do, to do it in any game never mind in the All Ireland final and there is no word about it? now tell me if that was a player from one of the big Ulster teams like Tyrone that done that how much of an outcry there would have been?
I'm glad this club final will be replayed, Kilmacud will be kicking themselves I'm sure, the replay should be in Derry unless Glen want to go back to Croker.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2761 - 25/01/2023 11:59:51    2454137

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Replying To Ulsterman:  "So here was the headline in a Dublin based national daily paper early this morning "NORTHERN IRELAND team to lodge objection to Croke Park". That tells you everything you need to know. The bitterness and downright hatred shown towards Ulster teams from many within the GAA and in the Southern media is venomous. If a replay comes about Glen should tog out and once the ball is thrown in then walk off the pitch. They will have made their point."
What paper was this?

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2595 - 25/01/2023 12:03:11    2454139

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "
Replying To Pikeman96:  "Viking 66 - Is there no rule saying that Football is a 15 a side game? And what is the penalty if that rule is broken?


You know something? We might be into really murky waters here. The Rule Book states that a team shall consist of 15 players. And maybe I've overlooking something, but I don't see anything to explicitly state that only the "team" shall be on the field at any given time, or even as simple as "a match shall be played between two teams".

Have often thought in the past that a good barrister could have a field day with the GAA Rule Book, and I'm thinking it again now."
Further to this - turns out I was overlooking something major all right!

An excerpt from Rule 6.44 from Part 1 of the Rule Book:
(b) (i) A team exceeding the number of players permitted under Rule 2.1 Rules of Specification,
Playing Rules:
(ii) A team exceeding the number of substitutions permitted under Rules 2.4 (i) and (ii) or breaching Rule 2.4 (iv) (b), Rules of Specification, Playing Rules:
Penalties:
On a proven Objection - Award of Game to the Opposing Team, or Replay, or Fine, depending on the circumstances.
On an Inquiry by the Committee-in-Charge - Forfeiture of Game without Award of Game to the Opposing Team, or Replay, or Fine, depending on the circumstances.

I'd just been looking in Part 2, because I knew that's where it says a team shall consist of 15 players, and also where rules regarding substitutions are set out."
So the committee in charge could have conducted an inquiry into it without Glen objecting ?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12132 - 25/01/2023 12:17:05    2454141

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Replying To sligo joe:  "He obviously did know, he spoke to Dara
Mullin and directed him to the sideline and indeed waited for him to reach the sideline before the last kickout and final whistle. A pity he wasn't as attentive when the substitutions were being made. If indeed he has made no reference to this in his report he has surely compounded his mistake and his match report should be sent back to him to review."
Apparently he made no mention of it. That's why it was put out there that Glen would have to object. But in a post above by Pikeman quoting the rules it appears that an inquiry could have been held into it by the committee in charge instead Glen objecting.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12132 - 25/01/2023 12:19:24    2454142

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "They had to make an objection. It is in the rule. What did you want the "top brass" to say exactly?

Do you expect judges to comment on cases before they are even brought to court?

Most likely be a replay now, so people will have to revert back to focusing on Shane Walsh, or their sponsor or that Crokes don't refuse to take any more kids onto teams..."
You would feel very sorry for all these club players especially those who had well earned holidays planned for the next few weeks. Also, what must the county mangers be thinking as they prepare for the start of the Allianz Leagues and will have to plan without some of their players especially the Derry team. As far as I know Galway just have one and Dublin just one involved.

hashtag2017 (Galway) - Posts: 173 - 25/01/2023 12:21:39    2454144

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Hope it goes to a replay as it's the only way to address it, Glen can count themselves very fortunate.

They've a second chance to win a game that they deserved to lose thanks to some silly stuff.

Glen had ample opportunities in normal time 15 v 15 to win it and they weren't good enough to do so, they are blessed to have another go, thanks to nothing but amateurish nonsense from the responsible parties.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20601 - 25/01/2023 12:26:31    2454147

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