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Replying To Wally2496: "I think in Wexford Gaa's current financial state and with all the progress they are making in off field activities such as marketing and investment etc, I think a cash prize or perhaps a team holiday is 100% a feasible ask. Granted, some difficulty will arise in regard to prizes for each division, but genuinely think €15000-€20000 could be put aside. They would make money back on the gate for league semi finals / finals but I would imagine it would drive the incentive for players, and clubs, to have a proper go at each league regardless of who they had available. I don't know if that's a viable option and maybe some people would disagree but I think it would work and that Wexford GAA would have the capacity to fund it. Imagine winning division 1 or 2 of the league and getting €2500 for your club, or winning a €1000 to go towards a team holiday etc - I would imagine it would create an incentive for players to really want to win games, which overall should help with the standard of the competition etc." I dont think €1000 would get you far on a team holiday
Afinestick (Wexford) - Posts: 999 - 07/03/2023 16:52:37
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Replying To Wally2496: "I think in Wexford Gaa's current financial state and with all the progress they are making in off field activities such as marketing and investment etc, I think a cash prize or perhaps a team holiday is 100% a feasible ask. Granted, some difficulty will arise in regard to prizes for each division, but genuinely think €15000-€20000 could be put aside. They would make money back on the gate for league semi finals / finals but I would imagine it would drive the incentive for players, and clubs, to have a proper go at each league regardless of who they had available. I don't know if that's a viable option and maybe some people would disagree but I think it would work and that Wexford GAA would have the capacity to fund it. Imagine winning division 1 or 2 of the league and getting €2500 for your club, or winning a €1000 to go towards a team holiday etc - I would imagine it would create an incentive for players to really want to win games, which overall should help with the standard of the competition etc." €20,000 is still a significant chunk of cash, and to use that much as a prize fund for the Leagues would be well over and above what's spent on player prizes (i.e. medals) for the championships.
But let's say they did, and break it down:
There'll be nine League winners this year (five in hurling, and four in football). Say all divisions got an equal pot - that's €2,222 per winner. Now say that money goes into general clubs funds. Broadly speaking, players don't care about that, since they don't feel they get any immediate and direct benefit from it, even though much of general clubs funds is spent on teams anyway.
So, let's say all of it goes towards a holiday fund instead. You're probably talking 30 to 35 people to go on that holiday - say 25 to 30 panellists, and five mentors/backroom. That works out at maybe €75 each, or less than half a night's B&B at current rates. Not much of a holiday!
So, you have to come up with the rest of the money to pay for a holiday by either fundraising or digging into your own pockets. Now you're saying to lads: "if we win the league, you get to either sell tickets or else hand over some of your own cash". Does that still sound like an incentive?
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2244 - 07/03/2023 17:06:56
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I think he is sending them to Pirates Cove in Courtown for the evening..........
Jokes aside, why aren't players interested? I remember going back training in January well wintered and being mad for road and wanting those warm up tournaments to come before our league started way back when.
As clubs and players demand better facilities, better coaching, better this better that maybe clubs should start to demand more from them in return?
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1128 - 07/03/2023 18:24:17
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Replying To Viking66: "Why are lads saying there is a 6 month gap between League and Championship? For well over 95% of players in Wexford, i.e. dual players, there is no real gap. How many club players in the county only play football do you know Pikeman? There was only 1 on the football 1st team panel at our club last year." Because no one is talking about players.
The discussion is in regards to why clubs aren't taking part in the football league, the reason they are giving is there's no point in playing or training football now due to the gap between league and championship.
tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1336 - 07/03/2023 21:17:08
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Maybe have a small championship incentive for the league, something like the winners get 1 additional point starting of their group phase for championship, if that could potentially damage competition integrity maybe have a relegation wildcard where if the league winners finish 6th in their group they get 2 chances to fight off relegation, a semi final 1st against a 5th place team and if they lose that they end up in the relegation play off as normal.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1716 - 07/03/2023 21:44:27
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Replying To Pikeman96: "€20,000 is still a significant chunk of cash, and to use that much as a prize fund for the Leagues would be well over and above what's spent on player prizes (i.e. medals) for the championships.
But let's say they did, and break it down:
There'll be nine League winners this year (five in hurling, and four in football). Say all divisions got an equal pot - that's €2,222 per winner. Now say that money goes into general clubs funds. Broadly speaking, players don't care about that, since they don't feel they get any immediate and direct benefit from it, even though much of general clubs funds is spent on teams anyway.
So, let's say all of it goes towards a holiday fund instead. You're probably talking 30 to 35 people to go on that holiday - say 25 to 30 panellists, and five mentors/backroom. That works out at maybe €75 each, or less than half a night's B&B at current rates. Not much of a holiday!
So, you have to come up with the rest of the money to pay for a holiday by either fundraising or digging into your own pockets. Now you're saying to lads: "if we win the league, you get to either sell tickets or else hand over some of your own cash". Does that still sound like an incentive?" 75 euro each is a fair night out in the local before the serious business starts. Where's the country gone wrong? Foreign holidays are the bare minimum reward required these days?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11841 - 08/03/2023 08:04:28
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Replying To Pikeman96: "€20,000 is still a significant chunk of cash, and to use that much as a prize fund for the Leagues would be well over and above what's spent on player prizes (i.e. medals) for the championships.
But let's say they did, and break it down:
There'll be nine League winners this year (five in hurling, and four in football). Say all divisions got an equal pot - that's €2,222 per winner. Now say that money goes into general clubs funds. Broadly speaking, players don't care about that, since they don't feel they get any immediate and direct benefit from it, even though much of general clubs funds is spent on teams anyway.
So, let's say all of it goes towards a holiday fund instead. You're probably talking 30 to 35 people to go on that holiday - say 25 to 30 panellists, and five mentors/backroom. That works out at maybe €75 each, or less than half a night's B&B at current rates. Not much of a holiday!
So, you have to come up with the rest of the money to pay for a holiday by either fundraising or digging into your own pockets. Now you're saying to lads: "if we win the league, you get to either sell tickets or else hand over some of your own cash". Does that still sound like an incentive?" Well again, it was merely a suggestion and not fully thought true. For instance straight away people would disagree that all divisions get the same fund etc. I still think the principle of it would work, regardless of players caring where the money goes in the club you can imagine someone after 2/3 games in the league (ie. Chairman / manager) when they realise they are in contention pushing the players to go all out to win it as 'they need the cash'.
Likewise, when I say holiday realistically it's meaning a free night out, it literally might be enough to get grub and cover a bus, which again is better than nothing and *might* incentivise players when it gets down to the last few games to try drive on and win it. If clubs wanted to go fundraise to raise money to go with it like you said well if players don't want to they can simply say no. Money could also be used to get New Jersey's or training tips etc , anything that might drive someone to turn up to game at the weekend and give it their all.
Realistically it won't happen, but it is one suggestion of something that might improve the standard or incentivise players to give the league a better go of it.
As for other ideas, I can't really think of any. I think the whole relagation / promotion thing won't work as clubs could potentially pull out instead of playing in a lower division and go down the route of organising challenge games when they know they have a certain % of players to play. Perhaps league positions might earn a home championship game - but then do some grounds have the required barriers in place etc to host game.
Wally2496 (Wexford) - Posts: 46 - 08/03/2023 08:34:14
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Replying To TerribleFootwork: "Maybe have a small championship incentive for the league, something like the winners get 1 additional point starting of their group phase for championship, if that could potentially damage competition integrity maybe have a relegation wildcard where if the league winners finish 6th in their group they get 2 chances to fight off relegation, a semi final 1st against a 5th place team and if they lose that they end up in the relegation play off as normal." Has been pointed out before that you can't really link league to championship for as long as clubs have to play the league without their inter-county players. Which basically means forever.
A club with four or five players involved across hurling & football county squads at senior & U20 would be at a big disadvantage the league, compared to other clubs in their own division with no county player or maybe only one. They'd have less of a chance of picking up whatever "championship bonus" would be on offer through the league, and would therefore be at a disadvantage when going into the championship itself, basically as a result of supplying players to county squads.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2244 - 08/03/2023 10:09:33
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For anyone still complaining about "the six month gap", I'd still like to hear their suggestions of how to run things differently.
March to May is the window to run the Leagues. It's only fair that club players know they can have June off in order to arrange holidays, etc., and the club championships window then opens in July. For as long as we want to maintain a two groups of six structure in the championships, it can't start any later. Things are already fairly squeezed.
So, all I can think of as an alternative is to run the Hurling League off in its entirety first (early March to mid April), and then play the Football League in its entirety (mid April to end of May, and maybe June Bank Holiday weekend).
But would there not be a danger then of:
1 - Hurlers complaining about having to go first, in generally worse ground conditions than you'd have a few weeks later?
2 - Footballers complaining about having to wait around to go second again, instead of being able to play in alternate weeks?
As an aside, I wonder how many of the clubs complaining about the gap were among the majority of clubs who voted to run the hurling championship first, and who therefore in effect brought the situation on themselves.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2244 - 08/03/2023 10:17:28
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I can see more problems arising for round two of the football next weekend, all due to the typical GAA thing of having no foresight.
With St.Patrick's Day, Cheltenham and a potential Six Nations Grand Slam all rolled into one 24HR period, in their infinite wisdom they have decided to schedule a few games to clash with the rugby, and others for the day after, on what is sure to be the biggest social weekend of the year so far. Okay, there are a good few down for decision on the Thursday night, but no-one at all would complain about playing a game on St.Patrick's Day morning (and thus having the weekend to themselves), but that would require some creative thinking.
beano (Wexford) - Posts: 1417 - 08/03/2023 10:27:24
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Replying To Wally2496: "Well again, it was merely a suggestion and not fully thought true. For instance straight away people would disagree that all divisions get the same fund etc. I still think the principle of it would work, regardless of players caring where the money goes in the club you can imagine someone after 2/3 games in the league (ie. Chairman / manager) when they realise they are in contention pushing the players to go all out to win it as 'they need the cash'.
Likewise, when I say holiday realistically it's meaning a free night out, it literally might be enough to get grub and cover a bus, which again is better than nothing and *might* incentivise players when it gets down to the last few games to try drive on and win it. If clubs wanted to go fundraise to raise money to go with it like you said well if players don't want to they can simply say no. Money could also be used to get New Jersey's or training tips etc , anything that might drive someone to turn up to game at the weekend and give it their all.
Realistically it won't happen, but it is one suggestion of something that might improve the standard or incentivise players to give the league a better go of it.
As for other ideas, I can't really think of any. I think the whole relagation / promotion thing won't work as clubs could potentially pull out instead of playing in a lower division and go down the route of organising challenge games when they know they have a certain % of players to play. Perhaps league positions might earn a home championship game - but then do some grounds have the required barriers in place etc to host game." Wouldn't say many haven't at this stage
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11841 - 08/03/2023 10:35:02
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Replying To Pikeman96: "For anyone still complaining about "the six month gap", I'd still like to hear their suggestions of how to run things differently.
March to May is the window to run the Leagues. It's only fair that club players know they can have June off in order to arrange holidays, etc., and the club championships window then opens in July. For as long as we want to maintain a two groups of six structure in the championships, it can't start any later. Things are already fairly squeezed.
So, all I can think of as an alternative is to run the Hurling League off in its entirety first (early March to mid April), and then play the Football League in its entirety (mid April to end of May, and maybe June Bank Holiday weekend).
But would there not be a danger then of:
1 - Hurlers complaining about having to go first, in generally worse ground conditions than you'd have a few weeks later?
2 - Footballers complaining about having to wait around to go second again, instead of being able to play in alternate weeks?
As an aside, I wonder how many of the clubs complaining about the gap were among the majority of clubs who voted to run the hurling championship first, and who therefore in effect brought the situation on themselves." Your suggestion is exactly what should have happened.
If your going with a split season then to be fair to both codes then you run the hurling league in March/ Mid April and Football league to be run following that.
So what if theres complaints. Its the fairest way for both codes giving each the same gap between both codes leagues and championship.
Funnily enough if that structure did happen im pretty sure it would be changed pretty quickly.
People will say "oh clubs wouldnt bother playing the football league" which is exactly whats happening already!
And yep plenty of clubs brought this on themselves, clubs dont tend to think things through in my experience.
tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1336 - 08/03/2023 10:39:04
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Replying To beano: "I can see more problems arising for round two of the football next weekend, all due to the typical GAA thing of having no foresight.
With St.Patrick's Day, Cheltenham and a potential Six Nations Grand Slam all rolled into one 24HR period, in their infinite wisdom they have decided to schedule a few games to clash with the rugby, and others for the day after, on what is sure to be the biggest social weekend of the year so far. Okay, there are a good few down for decision on the Thursday night, but no-one at all would complain about playing a game on St.Patrick's Day morning (and thus having the weekend to themselves), but that would require some creative thinking." By my reckoning, there are only four matches out of 26 that are a partial clash with the rugby - they're fixed for 4 p.m. that day, while the rugby will start at 5 p.m.
You can make that five at a push, if you include another match that's fixed for 3 p.m., even though that'll be over before the rugby starts.
As for the Sunday afternoon fixtures, you seem to be suggesting that drinking plans should have been considered before making those fixtures. "Lads probably want to go on the beer on the Saturday night, so we'd better not fix matches for the Sunday". Would certainly have been an interesting view to take.
I'd venture too that if some or all of those fixtures had been made for the morning of March 17, there'd be complaints about "the GAA won't even let players with children bring them to a parade for St. Patrick's Day".
Anyway, clubs unhappy with their fixture that weekend have until next Monday to agree a change with the other team, and so long as there's a referee available for the new date & time, there should be no issue in having those changes approved.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2244 - 08/03/2023 10:49:16
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Has been pointed out before that you can't really link league to championship for as long as clubs have to play the league without their inter-county players. Which basically means forever.
A club with four or five players involved across hurling & football county squads at senior & U20 would be at a big disadvantage the league, compared to other clubs in their own division with no county player or maybe only one. They'd have less of a chance of picking up whatever "championship bonus" would be on offer through the league, and would therefore be at a disadvantage when going into the championship itself, basically as a result of supplying players to county squads." I agree with you to be honest just making an suggestion, just tried to think of something that reward teams not necessarily punishes others.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1716 - 08/03/2023 11:05:39
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Replying To Pikeman96: "By my reckoning, there are only four matches out of 26 that are a partial clash with the rugby - they're fixed for 4 p.m. that day, while the rugby will start at 5 p.m.
You can make that five at a push, if you include another match that's fixed for 3 p.m., even though that'll be over before the rugby starts.
As for the Sunday afternoon fixtures, you seem to be suggesting that drinking plans should have been considered before making those fixtures. "Lads probably want to go on the beer on the Saturday night, so we'd better not fix matches for the Sunday". Would certainly have been an interesting view to take.
I'd venture too that if some or all of those fixtures had been made for the morning of March 17, there'd be complaints about "the GAA won't even let players with children bring them to a parade for St. Patrick's Day".
Anyway, clubs unhappy with their fixture that weekend have until next Monday to agree a change with the other team, and so long as there's a referee available for the new date & time, there should be no issue in having those changes approved." I know with my own club the preference for league games is very much Friday or Saturday as a few of the panel play soccer most Sunday mornings.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1716 - 08/03/2023 11:16:33
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Replying To TerribleFootwork: "I know with my own club the preference for league games is very much Friday or Saturday as a few of the panel play soccer most Sunday mornings." Since you mention soccer, I'd expect there'll be a full round of Wexford League matches fixed for the morning of Sunday March 19, same as every other Sunday.
Wonder will they be criticised for lack of foresight and lack of creative thinking too? :)
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2244 - 08/03/2023 11:27:50
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Replying To Pikeman96: "By my reckoning, there are only four matches out of 26 that are a partial clash with the rugby - they're fixed for 4 p.m. that day, while the rugby will start at 5 p.m.
You can make that five at a push, if you include another match that's fixed for 3 p.m., even though that'll be over before the rugby starts.
As for the Sunday afternoon fixtures, you seem to be suggesting that drinking plans should have been considered before making those fixtures. "Lads probably want to go on the beer on the Saturday night, so we'd better not fix matches for the Sunday". Would certainly have been an interesting view to take.
I'd venture too that if some or all of those fixtures had been made for the morning of March 17, there'd be complaints about "the GAA won't even let players with children bring them to a parade for St. Patrick's Day".
Anyway, clubs unhappy with their fixture that weekend have until next Monday to agree a change with the other team, and so long as there's a referee available for the new date & time, there should be no issue in having those changes approved." I was referring to the Sunday more so as regards to how deep the soccer season is now. So hypothetically a good few lads could have to play two sports in one day, and may skip one for the other because of that, which isn't fair either. And yeah expecting lads to put their life on hold already this time of year for a league match Sunday afternoon isn't right either.
I know clubs have the power to move a fixture but from experience with that, the club that makes the initial request is usually behind the black ball as a lot of the time the other club won't change as they feel they gain an advantage by playing the original fixture. Gets messy then.
And most Paddy's Day parades are on at 2-3PM, surely a 10.30 or 11AM throw-in time suits everyone. It's 'only the league' after all ;)
beano (Wexford) - Posts: 1417 - 08/03/2023 11:28:54
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Has been pointed out before that you can't really link league to championship for as long as clubs have to play the league without their inter-county players. Which basically means forever.
A club with four or five players involved across hurling & football county squads at senior & U20 would be at a big disadvantage the league, compared to other clubs in their own division with no county player or maybe only one. They'd have less of a chance of picking up whatever "championship bonus" would be on offer through the league, and would therefore be at a disadvantage when going into the championship itself, basically as a result of supplying players to county squads." I would go for giving the winning team two home games in the Championship.
I don't buy into your country story either. The county panels are fairly well spread over clubs. The league should be used by the clubs to develop players when their stars are away. If excuses are constantly made for clubs like you are doing, nothing will change and clubs won't take the league seriously. That will have a knock effect of the development of players. Time for clubs to stop the whinging and get on with it.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1804 - 08/03/2023 12:29:44
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Replying To zinny: "I would go for giving the winning team two home games in the Championship.
I don't buy into your country story either. The county panels are fairly well spread over clubs. The league should be used by the clubs to develop players when their stars are away. If excuses are constantly made for clubs like you are doing, nothing will change and clubs won't take the league seriously. That will have a knock effect of the development of players. Time for clubs to stop the whinging and get on with it." Right, to use just a couple of examples:
Kilanerin had five players in the matchday squad for the Football League match v Sligo last Sunday. Another five in the U20 panel that played Carlow last Friday night. There's ten players who wouldn't have been available for an ACFL tie (the fact that they had a bye last weekend is neither here nor there, because same situation will apply for ACFL next weekend).
Similarly, Castletown have to operate in ACFL without four of their key senior players: Darragh Brooks, Conor Carty, Ben Brosnan, and Robbie Brooks. They've another one or two in the county U20 squad as well.
Realistically, what chance do either of those clubs have of winning ACFL Premier when they're down so many top men? And how would it be fair then for them to be at a disadvantage when championship starts, because some other club without as many county men would have picked up some sort of bonus for winning the league?
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2244 - 08/03/2023 13:52:58
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Replying To beano: "I was referring to the Sunday more so as regards to how deep the soccer season is now. So hypothetically a good few lads could have to play two sports in one day, and may skip one for the other because of that, which isn't fair either. And yeah expecting lads to put their life on hold already this time of year for a league match Sunday afternoon isn't right either.
I know clubs have the power to move a fixture but from experience with that, the club that makes the initial request is usually behind the black ball as a lot of the time the other club won't change as they feel they gain an advantage by playing the original fixture. Gets messy then.
And most Paddy's Day parades are on at 2-3PM, surely a 10.30 or 11AM throw-in time suits everyone. It's 'only the league' after all ;)" You didn't mention soccer in your earlier post - you just referred to "the biggest social weekend of the year", which I took to mean a night or two out, and the beer that goes with it. And you still seem to be referring to that, with talk of "expecting lads to put their life on hold". Are you really maintaining that club matches shouldn't be fixed for Sunday afternoons at this time of year, in case club players want to go get bladdered on Saturday nights?
As for soccer - yes, it's a factor for some players all right, but you could say the same about any Sunday at this time of year. And call me a dinosaur if you like, but I've never believed and never will believe that GAA fixtures should revolve around what another sport is doing, unless that other sports thing is some massive event of national interest. If somebody chooses to play two sports, then they'll have to make other choices related to that sooner or later.
Finally, biggest St. Patrick's Day parade in the county (Wexford town) is always held in the morning, at something like 10.30 or 11 a.m. Same with Bunclody, and some of the other smaller ones too. It's not all as clearcut as you seem to think.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2244 - 08/03/2023 14:00:38
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