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Replying To ExiledInWex: "That is my point.
It happened all throughout Davy's time "oh they were in the middle of a big training block", "oh we didn't want to make a league final so Waterford/Tipp/etc won by a cricket score".
Limerick were a county of excuses in the 90s/00s when they always had an excuse, e.g. Gary Kirby had his finger broken when the reality was it was 2 players pulling on a ball and they were beaten by a more determined and disciplined team who believed in themselves. Then they went through manager after manager until eventually they said enough excuses, lets look at ourselves first. I think this is the crossroads Wexford are now at.
It is not being negative to find a beating like that which Clare shipped on Wexford inexcusable, and that was not the first one there were others like Waterford, Galway, Westmeath in recent years. I am a blow-in in this county with less passion than most yet I found the reaction of "oh its the league", "oh we have injuries" and so on to be abdicating management and players of responsibility. Time to stop making excuses at this stage, its not being negative it is being honest." Noone made any excuses for the Clare loss. Even if it was a second string team they still should've tried to play. And sadly it was some of the more established players that tried least that day. Who made excuses for it?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15681 - 21/03/2023 16:20:19
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Replying To beano: "I don't know how we can say we are close to the Munster teams when we have already got blown away by one (in front of an expectant home crowd), reeled in by another and outplayed by a third playing in second gear just last weekend. I know "its only the league", but recent championship encounters against them have shown that we tend to tire a lot quicker down the home straight, or are let down by our game management/general skill-set when it counts.
I haven't always agreed with Storeystash over the years, but he is spot on. We are too accepting of mediocrity. Our free-taking and chance conversion remains in the low bracket. Our conditioning, from my eye at least, is well behind the true contenders. Joe Canning (best hurler of my lifetime) was on the Tommy Tiernan show last week, and he talked the viewer through his free-taking technique, but seemed to regret the one time his system didn't quite work in the All-Ireland final of 2018 when it dropped just short. This was the reigning hurler of the year at the time, in a side going for back-to-back All Ireland's, regretting that they ALMOST snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. We in Wexford would accentuate the positives of that experience and fete the players involved still. We have praised a couple of lads for showing fight in the last two matches for godsake (when we were let down by individual errors let again).
In my lifetime, and without giving away my age, the list of All-Ireland final appearances reads as follows:
Kilkenny 21 (won 13)
Tipperary 11 (won 6)
Cork 9 (won 4, but going through their longest ever drought without one currently)
Galway 9 (won 2)
Limerick 7 (won 4)
Clare 4 (won 3)
Offaly 4 (won 2)
Waterford 3
WEXFORD 1 (won 1)
Antrim 1.
So the optimists here will probably paint that as us having the only 100% record in finals in that time frame, but of the so-called hurling counties, Dublin are the only team to have featured in less finals than us. And for a county that can really claim to play second-fiddle to the other code, they have still won 6 Leinster minors compared to our solitary one. Offaly really utilised a golden period, winning senior, minor and u-21 Leinster titles in 89, but also winning Leinster minor titles in two different decades too (2000, 2022), and an NHL in 2001- something we haven't achieved in 50 years now.
The fact of the matter is that we have concluded our league campaign with one win, against a side we couldn't beat in championship last year, and bring that lack of momentum into the lion's den of Salthill for the opening round of Leinster, with the usual raft of injuries to contend with it seems (although I'm sure no county has ever had the fortune of going injury-free for an entire season, we just get inhibited by it more thanks to a lack of succession planning). I have always ear-marked Dublin away as the key game of the entire round robin, as we could at least afford to lose to Galway if we win in Parnell, but our recent bouts with them don't fill me with confidence either.
Call me a pessimist, but sometimes negativity is closer to reality." We won all 5 group games in the League last year, beating all the Munster teams and Galway. Does that mean we were brilliant last year? I don't think so Beano.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15681 - 21/03/2023 16:21:46
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Replying To Afinestick: "I like your optimism LarryO. I dont think we will win Leinster but I do think we are a lot better than we showed in the league. Our manager has been consistently saying the league was not our priority this year. We have went out every day bar the Cork game with half our first choice players missing. I will only be judging us on our leinster championship campaign when hopefully our injuries have cleared up and the lads now have 4 and a half weeks to get ready for Salthill. I think if we can our best team on the field we are capable of getting a win but it will extremely tough Shefflin will have them primed for championship this year I feel" By halftime in the Cork game we had half our championship team missing
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15681 - 21/03/2023 16:22:44
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Replying To Waltermitty2: "If you think mcguckin is one of our best players then you my friend are deluded. You try your best to convince people that we would be best off with "lads who get through loads of work" instead of someone like jacko who has attributes and can actually hurl. Being one of the best forwards in a very poor team and still failing to actually stand out and catch the eye is kinda worrying that these are the players we are trying to develop." I've been to every game this year and recorded all the ones on tv and watched them back. Along with Shane Reck Mcguckin has been one of our better players this year. Bar his shooting he's done very well. I stand by that statement.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15681 - 21/03/2023 16:24:47
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Replying To Viking66: "I've been to every game this year and recorded all the ones on tv and watched them back. Along with Shane Reck Mcguckin has been one of our better players this year. Bar his shooting he's done very well. I stand by that statement." That poster only appears after poor performances, was here cricitising lads after Sunday and Clare game, no sign of them after the Cork game, wouldn't hold much weight on the views of people like that.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 21/03/2023 16:31:10
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Replying To Magpie2: "Fact-1 we have an extraordinary amount of injuries.
No other county to my knowledge has anything like the missing marquee players that we have.
Fact -2 It's not making excuses when more than half your team are young and inexperienced at the top level. They will learn over time, it's not something that happens overnight.
Fact-3 On a given day we are capable of beating any of the top leinster teams but only if we are playing from a full deck, or nearly a full deck.
Fact- 4 we have unearthed new talent. Lads like Ian Carthy, Conor Hearne, Richie Lawlor, Conor Foley. Those lads will be key players in the years to come. ( see Fact 2)
Fast -5 Management have to try out new ideas, such as trying out players in different positions.
Of course it doesn't always work out as planned but necessary to see what they can do and change for the next game if needed.
Fact-6 Constructive criticism is not a bad thing.
But some of the stuff on this forum is destructive.
The younger players and the older guys need to be encouraged by all of us. If for instance if they have a bad day, let's tell them that the next game will be better.
Fact- 7 positive thoughts bring positive returns.
Ask any successful sportsman or woman and they will all tell you the same thing. Its all about a positive attitude. If a lad is constantly critizised and his head is full of negative thoughts due to what people are saying then he will surely carry that negativity into games and his game will suffer as a result. Of course not everyone makes the cut but encouragement, praise, pat on the back will go a long way to make a better player." Proper positive post Magpie2.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15681 - 21/03/2023 16:38:12
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Replying To LarryOBrother: "I just think it will come together by Championship. Goalkeeper is my biggest concern but the below team, man for man, for me is as good as anyones in Leinster if they get going -
Fanning
Donohue Ryan S.Reck
O' Hanlon D. Reck Flood
O'Keefe Dunbar
Hearne McGovern Chin
Rory Mac Dwyer
Sub - McGuckian, Kevin Foley, Carthy, Oisin Foley, Conor Foley, Devitt, Rory Higgins, Jack O'Connor and the rest of the U'20s" Add Richie Lawlor to this LarryO I could be wrong but I think he is back in training?
Afinestick (Wexford) - Posts: 999 - 21/03/2023 17:12:23
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Replying To Afinestick: "Add Richie Lawlor to this LarryO I could be wrong but I think he is back in training?" Clarke and Niall Murphy for the bench too. Banville on the bench for the frees as well.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15681 - 21/03/2023 17:16:31
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Replying To Viking66: "We won all 5 group games in the League last year, beating all the Munster teams and Galway. Does that mean we were brilliant last year? I don't think so Beano." That doesn't disprove our overall record vs. Munster teams when we get out of Leinster though.
Using the last ten years as a sample size, the only times we have beaten a Munster team in the qualifiers are:
2022: Kerry by 21 points
2016: beat Cork by three, subsequently lost by Waterford by ten
2014: beat both Clare and Waterford by three points each, hockeyed by Limerick thereafter by 24 points.
The average losing margin across the last ten times we have exited the championship to Munster teams is 7.9 points. Although maybe the key is to avoid Clare!
It's well and good being competitive in Leinster, and I will celebrate as much as anyone if we bring the Bob O'Keeffe back this year, but Munster has morphed into a different kettle of fish entirely. It's almost Europa League vs Champions League in terms of overall quality. How many of the Leinster teams would you confidently say would emerge out of the Munster round robin at present? Do you think Kilkenny settled for "being competitive" in last year's All Ireland final, especially when they had shipped two record defeats in their two prior appearances before that?
beano (Wexford) - Posts: 1486 - 21/03/2023 17:52:34
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Replying To Viking66: "I've been to every game this year and recorded all the ones on tv and watched them back. Along with Shane Reck Mcguckin has been one of our better players this year. Bar his shooting he's done very well. I stand by that statement." Mcguckin may not be the most skilful player but he's selected to do a job. That job is to really get stuck in and make it difficult for the opposition to make clearances. To catch the high balls and lay it off to the other forwards. His work rate is first class and he has a good engine.
Every team needs a guy like Mcguicken, a playmaker. Someone who goes and goes and will not give in even if the game is not going to plan.
Yes I agree his shooting may be somewhat wayward but he has other qualities like I've mentioned above.
Magpie2 (Wexford) - Posts: 450 - 21/03/2023 18:09:53
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Ultimately I think we have a stronger panel than last year.
Assuming we stay injury free
Lawlor
S Reck
Jippo
Devitt
Carty
D Reck
Matt
Dee
Lawlor
O Foley
Chin
Charlie
Roc
Mac
Dunbar
That leaves Mogie, k Foley, Banville, higgens, Dwyer, Jacko, Simon, Hearne, flood all capable of making an impact
With the exception of matt, jipp, Dee, chin and Rory they're all interchangeable without damaging us too much. You need a panel to be successful and it's starting to look like one.
We do have an over reliance on these lads who won't be around forever but speaking purely about this year we're in decent shape with another month of work done.
A key point would be the wides tally we had in 19 by comparison to other years we don't make it easy for ourselves.
This squad has the flexibility to play a running game with Reck, Dee, chin, Dunbar, Rory etc.
Then go down the neck with chin, mac, Foley, Jack off the bench etc.
Looking back over some games we show flashes of absolute brilliance at times, but need to find a way to sustain it and keep the scoreboard ticking over when we inevitably fade like most teams do.
There would also be energy on that bench if we find ourselves in situations like Clare last year.
I am excited to see what we bring.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3569 - 21/03/2023 19:36:27
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O hanlon and Ryan are more than likely going to be missing for Salthill. Who plays full back?
ChinCanHurl (Wexford) - Posts: 302 - 21/03/2023 21:08:44
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I don't know what to say at this stage, to me people need a reality check. I have limited skin in the game bar Wexford being where I live and who my wife and children support, but the alarm bells are ringing for me on where hurling in the county is at. Who is coming through to replace Chin, O'Hanlon, O'Keefe, etc? These players grew up winning u21 titles and had no fear of Kilkenny or Dublin and that was a focal point. But I don't see players of that calibre coming in to push them off the team.
I get that Wexford have been close on a couple of occasions at u20 and minor etc but still have little or no underage success bar a minor title in 2019 and some completely shambolic performances. I never felt winning underage was important but winning becomes a culture as much as losing and / or throwing games away, finding excuses or blaming referees or injuries.
Its not being negative to ask a few difficult questions in any walk of life. Good work, or the blue riband? Because far from being the best, I fear Wexford is being left behind by about 7-8 counties and results are showing it.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1336 - 21/03/2023 22:00:29
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Replying To TerribleFootwork: "That poster only appears after poor performances, was here cricitising lads after Sunday and Clare game, no sign of them after the Cork game, wouldn't hold much weight on the views of people like that." He is fairly correct on the McGuckian point however, Not much else but defo that.
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 788 - 22/03/2023 09:11:28
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Replying To Viking66: "Clarke and Niall Murphy for the bench too. Banville on the bench for the frees as well." I forgot Lawlor as well so that potentially means the likes of Byrne Dunbar, Pepper, Darragh Carley all struggling to make the match day panel.
I also think there could be a springer in Cian Byrne who could well get game time in senior championship.
Competition for the match day panel is really what you want.
LarryOBrother (Wexford) - Posts: 412 - 22/03/2023 09:39:34
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Replying To beano: "That doesn't disprove our overall record vs. Munster teams when we get out of Leinster though.
Using the last ten years as a sample size, the only times we have beaten a Munster team in the qualifiers are:
2022: Kerry by 21 points
2016: beat Cork by three, subsequently lost by Waterford by ten
2014: beat both Clare and Waterford by three points each, hockeyed by Limerick thereafter by 24 points.
The average losing margin across the last ten times we have exited the championship to Munster teams is 7.9 points. Although maybe the key is to avoid Clare!
It's well and good being competitive in Leinster, and I will celebrate as much as anyone if we bring the Bob O'Keeffe back this year, but Munster has morphed into a different kettle of fish entirely. It's almost Europa League vs Champions League in terms of overall quality. How many of the Leinster teams would you confidently say would emerge out of the Munster round robin at present? Do you think Kilkenny settled for "being competitive" in last year's All Ireland final, especially when they had shipped two record defeats in their two prior appearances before that?" We shouldn't settle for just being competitive either. But the fact remains that we haven't even been competitive on a consistent basis with the Munster counties since the 1960s. In League or Championship. Until Davy got us competitive in with them in the League, but at the cost of player development and being competitive in the Championship.
Being competitive is better than being miles behind, although certainly we shouldn't just aim for that. That's the whole point to the stating of the aim to win an AI by 2027, which lads on this, who say we accept mediocrity, then stated was an unrealistic goal!!!!!
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15681 - 22/03/2023 10:21:10
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Replying To ChinCanHurl: "O hanlon and Ryan are more than likely going to be missing for Salthill. Who plays full back?" Are they likely to be out for Salthill? Still 4 weeks to go before then?
Afinestick (Wexford) - Posts: 999 - 22/03/2023 10:24:05
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Replying To Magpie2: "Mcguckin may not be the most skilful player but he's selected to do a job. That job is to really get stuck in and make it difficult for the opposition to make clearances. To catch the high balls and lay it off to the other forwards. His work rate is first class and he has a good engine.
Every team needs a guy like Mcguicken, a playmaker. Someone who goes and goes and will not give in even if the game is not going to plan.
Yes I agree his shooting may be somewhat wayward but he has other qualities like I've mentioned above." For sure. That's why I said that along with Shane Reck he's been one of the best of our players who have started all or most of our games. Other lads like Carty, Hearne and Higgins have improved alot as the season has gone on, as has Dunbar. But if we did like we did last year and played our best players even when not 100% just to get League wins, none of these lads would have improved at all.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15681 - 22/03/2023 10:24:22
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Replying To ChinCanHurl: "O hanlon and Ryan are more than likely going to be missing for Salthill. Who plays full back?" Not sure about that. I'd be hopeful both will be fit in a months time.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15681 - 22/03/2023 10:25:48
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "I don't know what to say at this stage, to me people need a reality check. I have limited skin in the game bar Wexford being where I live and who my wife and children support, but the alarm bells are ringing for me on where hurling in the county is at. Who is coming through to replace Chin, O'Hanlon, O'Keefe, etc? These players grew up winning u21 titles and had no fear of Kilkenny or Dublin and that was a focal point. But I don't see players of that calibre coming in to push them off the team.
I get that Wexford have been close on a couple of occasions at u20 and minor etc but still have little or no underage success bar a minor title in 2019 and some completely shambolic performances. I never felt winning underage was important but winning becomes a culture as much as losing and / or throwing games away, finding excuses or blaming referees or injuries.
Its not being negative to ask a few difficult questions in any walk of life. Good work, or the blue riband? Because far from being the best, I fear Wexford is being left behind by about 7-8 counties and results are showing it." What are you talking about? When those lads you mentioned first graduated to Senior we were getting routinely beaten by Dublin and hammered by Kilkenny the 1st few years they were on the panel. In the League we were losing to or just barely beating Laois and Antrim never mind the Munster counties. We didn't beat Kilkenny in Senior Championship until 2017, since from 2004, when Lee and Matt were 25 or 26 years old. Mogie and Dee were 27 or 28. Sure posters on this with your attitude back then were saying Lee and Matt were footballers not real hurlers at all. I know you didn't post on this but I'm beginning to suspect you weren't really following Wexford hurling at all back then.
Our u21 team in 2018 was arguably better than the 3 in a row team. They only lost to Galway to a last second hail mary goal in that years u21 final. Our 3 in a row team never had to play Galways u21s at all as they weren't allowed to compete in Leinster at u21. These lads are now still only 24 or 25 later this year. Ok lads like Damien Reck and Rory got gametime at an early age as did Conor Firman, Joe OConnor and Darren Byrne, but lads like Shane Reck, Carty, Higgins, Dwyer, Clarke and Oisin Foley are only getting regular Senior gametime now this year or last which is shocking when you think the other lads from the 3 in a row team got the chance to improve at Senior from when they were 21 or 22. Other good hurlers from this panel who sadly didn't want to commit include Jack Cullen and Garry Molloy, not sure about Rowan White whether he was asked or not and Stephen O Gorman who also hurled intercounty u21 in 2017 and has never been asked, despite getting a nomination for the Wexford club hurling TOTY just a few months ago.
Now these lads are in their 1st year or 2 at Senior, along with Mcguckin, the 2 Murphys, James Lawlor, Banville, Clancy, Kinsella, Richie Lawlor, Jack Doran, Conor Devitt, Kyle Scallan and the other lads who have seen gametime so far this year and you seem to be expecting them to beating teams from Munster largely made up of players with between 4 and 10 years Senior intercounty experience, training and S and C behind them? You are the one who is not being realistic lad. These lads won't be competitive until they have a few more years done at this level, same as Matt, Lee, Mogie and Dee before them.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15681 - 22/03/2023 10:59:03
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