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Wexford Intercounty Hurling 2023

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Replying To Viking66:  "Primary possession is a big problem for the team. Outside of Chin our next best aerial ball winner was probably Charlie Mcguckin the last couple of years. And he would likely be better as a halfback going forwards. Hopefully over the next few years lads like Clancy, Kinsella, O Hagan etc might step up.
But really I think we need to play more of a gameplan to suit what we have, as well as the traditional high long dropping ball we stuck with last year . We have smaller faster forwards so play low hard fast ball into space for these lads to run on to, either between the half forward and inside lines, or over the top into the corners."
Bit harsh I think. Jacko and oisin foley have been very effective albeit inconsistent y

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2548 - 12/10/2023 14:22:13    2508044

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Bit harsh I think. Jacko and oisin foley have been very effective albeit inconsistent y"
Jacko is very skilful and has good size. He was never a lad to leap and catch a ball though. Oisin Foley is a good player too and if fit I'd start him every game next year. Neither have struck me as being good at winning a contested high ball in to them at intercounty level though and I've seen both of them nearly every time they have played for the county.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11239 - 12/10/2023 15:39:07    2508054

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Replying To Viking66:  "Jacko is very skilful and has good size. He was never a lad to leap and catch a ball though. Oisin Foley is a good player too and if fit I'd start him every game next year. Neither have struck me as being good at winning a contested high ball in to them at intercounty level though and I've seen both of them nearly every time they have played for the county."
Same as that.

There are two specific instances that come to mind for me. Both goals in 2022.

Oisín vs kilkenny and jacko against Clare. The purest of forwards goals you'll see. No messing. Win it, turn and stick it.

Oisín on fairness contributes a couple of scores every day, and they're usually a ball he's won himself.

Jack is a little different but there's one positive from egans tenure. I saw him be very hands on in training with coaching Jack to break a ball correctly to an oncoming player. It worked with great effect any time we performed well in 2023.

Stillington thoujg, I totally accept we need to find another prolific forward

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2548 - 12/10/2023 17:13:57    2508072

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Same as that.

There are two specific instances that come to mind for me. Both goals in 2022.

Oisín vs kilkenny and jacko against Clare. The purest of forwards goals you'll see. No messing. Win it, turn and stick it.

Oisín on fairness contributes a couple of scores every day, and they're usually a ball he's won himself.

Jack is a little different but there's one positive from egans tenure. I saw him be very hands on in training with coaching Jack to break a ball correctly to an oncoming player. It worked with great effect any time we performed well in 2023.

Stillington thoujg, I totally accept we need to find another prolific forward"
I was breaking it down in my head during the week. You need 30 points minimum to win a modern game of hurling. We might get 8 placed balls. Maybe get 1 or 2 from the fullback line. 4 or 5 from the halfbacks. The modern midfielders don't get the chance to score much. Not for any team. Lucky to get 2 from here. Our half forwards aren't prolific. But between the 2 forward lines we need 14 or more points from somewhere. Last year we didn't get that in most games.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11239 - 12/10/2023 20:39:07    2508092

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Saw something about Caroline Currid leaving Limerick next year on the Irish Examiner website . They had Limericks league group up on it also, so by the process of elimination from what I saw…we have Kilkenny, Clare, Cork and Waterford next year in our group. I can't find any other info about it anywhere regarding home and away etc. I know exact details aren't out until before Xmas.

OpenStandWall (Wexford) - Posts: 25 - 12/10/2023 21:24:58    2508097

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Replying To grassroots01:  "Caroline Currid leaving the Limerick camp...... if you were to listen to some lads on here Limerick will never win a match again as a sports psychologist seems to be the most important part of inter county hurling nowadays"
Its complete rubbish to say that it is the most important part.
A sports psychologist is for the final 1-2%, the first 98-99% of Limerick's success is built on enormous spend and work with development squads.
If this Limerick team had a history of losing tight games from winning positions in the last few minutes, then that is part psychology. That is when a psychologist is value.
But if Wexford went out and spend 100-150k on a psychologist then it would be a shocking waste when money could be spend on coaches in schools and getting the combined colleges team going properly again.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1078 - 13/10/2023 09:37:42    2508113

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Its complete rubbish to say that it is the most important part.
A sports psychologist is for the final 1-2%, the first 98-99% of Limerick's success is built on enormous spend and work with development squads.
If this Limerick team had a history of losing tight games from winning positions in the last few minutes, then that is part psychology. That is when a psychologist is value.
But if Wexford went out and spend 100-150k on a psychologist then it would be a shocking waste when money could be spend on coaches in schools and getting the combined colleges team going properly again."
I don't know what a psychologist costs, but I'd say that €100k to €150k is a massive overestimate.

For example, last year's accounts show that the total spend on county teams was in the region of €1 million - I think that even includes U17 and U20, but for argument's sake, let's say it just relates to senior.

That €1 million then would probably break down around €550k for the hurlers and €450k for the footballers - not because the hurlers get more, but simply because they were involved for longer (hurlers were in the championship until the middle of June, whereas footballers were out in the middle of May).

So, roughly €550k would cover absolutely everything to do with the hurlers for approx. seven months (December to June). And remember, that would include the payment to whatever psychologist they had at the time.

I don't believe that psychologist would have taken up roughly 25% of the entire senior hurling budget for the season, and nor do I believe that the addition of a Caroline Currid type would add an extra 25% or so to the total spend.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2155 - 13/10/2023 09:55:04    2508115

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Its complete rubbish to say that it is the most important part.
A sports psychologist is for the final 1-2%, the first 98-99% of Limerick's success is built on enormous spend and work with development squads.
If this Limerick team had a history of losing tight games from winning positions in the last few minutes, then that is part psychology. That is when a psychologist is value.
But if Wexford went out and spend 100-150k on a psychologist then it would be a shocking waste when money could be spend on coaches in schools and getting the combined colleges team going properly again."
We lost to Dublin and Westmeath by 2 points each. Effectively 1 point against Dublin as Rory had to drop in a last minute free as 1 point wouldn't have been enough. We switched off altogether against Westmeath for a whole half. That 1-2% could've been the winning of those 2 games. And if we won them we would've been in the Leinster final. Season could've ended up very differently.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11239 - 13/10/2023 10:25:45    2508122

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "I don't know what a psychologist costs, but I'd say that €100k to €150k is a massive overestimate.

For example, last year's accounts show that the total spend on county teams was in the region of €1 million - I think that even includes U17 and U20, but for argument's sake, let's say it just relates to senior.

That €1 million then would probably break down around €550k for the hurlers and €450k for the footballers - not because the hurlers get more, but simply because they were involved for longer (hurlers were in the championship until the middle of June, whereas footballers were out in the middle of May).

So, roughly €550k would cover absolutely everything to do with the hurlers for approx. seven months (December to June). And remember, that would include the payment to whatever psychologist they had at the time.

I don't believe that psychologist would have taken up roughly 25% of the entire senior hurling budget for the season, and nor do I believe that the addition of a Caroline Currid type would add an extra 25% or so to the total spend."
Think the footballers were in champ few weeks longer than hurlers

lefty (Wexford) - Posts: 185 - 13/10/2023 11:10:25    2508135

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Replying To Viking66:  "We lost to Dublin and Westmeath by 2 points each. Effectively 1 point against Dublin as Rory had to drop in a last minute free as 1 point wouldn't have been enough. We switched off altogether against Westmeath for a whole half. That 1-2% could've been the winning of those 2 games. And if we won them we would've been in the Leinster final. Season could've ended up very differently."
I'm pretty sure there's only 3 of us on here who understand it.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2548 - 13/10/2023 11:23:27    2508142

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Its complete rubbish to say that it is the most important part.
A sports psychologist is for the final 1-2%, the first 98-99% of Limerick's success is built on enormous spend and work with development squads.
If this Limerick team had a history of losing tight games from winning positions in the last few minutes, then that is part psychology. That is when a psychologist is value.
But if Wexford went out and spend 100-150k on a psychologist then it would be a shocking waste when money could be spend on coaches in schools and getting the combined colleges team going properly again."
With the greatest respect, anyone who has ever worked with a performance psychologist would not say that.

It's worth probably ten times what you're saying.

Look at niamh Fitzpatrick in 96. That team was better in 91 and 93 and they were experts at losing finals. Offaly were the best team in Ireland in 96 and wexford destroyed them. The only difference was mental prep.

The same can be said for what Billy Walsh achieved with the high performance unit. In one Olympic camp between 04 and 08 from 1 qualified boxer to 3 medals.

I'm lucky enough to have worked with psychologist professionally and in sport. They can unlock things that you don't know you have, and remove obstacles you didn't even know were there.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2548 - 13/10/2023 11:28:35    2508145

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Replying To lefty:  "Think the footballers were in champ few weeks longer than hurlers"
They were this year. Figures above are referring to last year. The figures for spend on county teams for this year won't be published until the Convention in December.

Point remains anyway that if total spend is say €1 million between hurling and football, and it breaks down somewhere between 60/40 each way, then at most €600,000 is spent on absolutely everything for senior hurlers. I don't think that getting in a psychologist of Currid's standing would cost somewhere around 20 to 25% as much again.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2155 - 13/10/2023 11:44:56    2508148

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "With the greatest respect, anyone who has ever worked with a performance psychologist would not say that.

It's worth probably ten times what you're saying.

Look at niamh Fitzpatrick in 96. That team was better in 91 and 93 and they were experts at losing finals. Offaly were the best team in Ireland in 96 and wexford destroyed them. The only difference was mental prep.

The same can be said for what Billy Walsh achieved with the high performance unit. In one Olympic camp between 04 and 08 from 1 qualified boxer to 3 medals.

I'm lucky enough to have worked with psychologist professionally and in sport. They can unlock things that you don't know you have, and remove obstacles you didn't even know were there."
That's interesting stuff. Expand on the last sentence there if you've time, and give us a deeper insight and example into some of these locks and obstacles.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3360 - 13/10/2023 11:51:41    2508150

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Its complete rubbish to say that it is the most important part.
A sports psychologist is for the final 1-2%, the first 98-99% of Limerick's success is built on enormous spend and work with development squads.
If this Limerick team had a history of losing tight games from winning positions in the last few minutes, then that is part psychology. That is when a psychologist is value.
But if Wexford went out and spend 100-150k on a psychologist then it would be a shocking waste when money could be spend on coaches in schools and getting the combined colleges team going properly again."
Oh I 100% agree with you ExiledInWex - but some lads on here think that if we pay Caroline Currid big money we will win every match.

grassroots01 (Wexford) - Posts: 162 - 13/10/2023 12:16:53    2508157

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Replying To grassroots01:  "Oh I 100% agree with you ExiledInWex - but some lads on here think that if we pay Caroline Currid big money we will win every match."
Consider what viking said.

If we had a decent sport psychologist we'd have been in the last two leinster finals.

It's the difference between making the right decision under pressure that secures a vital score.

Liam Ryan's handpass to Oisín pepper at the end of the Dublin game in 22 is a perfect example.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2548 - 13/10/2023 13:12:44    2508165

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "That's interesting stuff. Expand on the last sentence there if you've time, and give us a deeper insight and example into some of these locks and obstacles."
With pleasure. The first time I was involved I was quite sceptical.

There are two fundemental concepts which are particularly prevalent in Ireland.

Imposter syndrome is one. It is the internal belief that you aren't good enough to be in the position that you are in. There are very simple exercises that rewire the brain to redirect that thought and remain focused on incremental decisions.

The second is about seemingly insignificant decisions that compound into serious results via the butterfly effect.

Every Liam Mccarthy player is very fit. That is easy. The difference between good and great is the ability to make decisions under pressure without thinking. Ie when to pass, when to shoot, when to lift, when to pull. When to take a little longer over a free etc.

Liam Griffin referred to Liam dunne taking a yard on a free when the referee turned his back. This is a losers mindset. Internally he believed he needed to do this to be good enough which was not true.

The main thing that challenges this is distraction.

Niamh Fitzpatrick met each player one on one to go through a minute by minute itinerary of all Ireland day. The visible result was the first battle where limerick broke the parade and we Ford did not. Limerick were full of undirected nervous energy. We Ford were calm. Second was the sending of scenario. This was discussed in detail which meant zero panic.

For me personally, I was already doing well in my career. Part of my senior leadership role involved executive performance coaching.

A key thing identified was my decisions were motivated by fear which lead to overwork and increased stress which I thought was rubbish.

I kept a log of thoughts when presented with decisions and was able to address a need that I never knew about which lead to an increase of 30% in my teams productivity when this method was cascaded.

I cannot overstate the importance of understanding this for anyone who aspires to achieve anything in life or sport.

I'll give one more example. Andy Lee. Olympian and World Middle weight champion. The first product of the high performance unit, uss visualisation instead of sparring to prepare for fights. He visualised every scenario that could occur with an opponent so by the time he got to the ring he had already overcome every potential obstacle.

In short, a psychologist won't make you win every match. They will go a long way to ensuring you make the best decision every time, or failing that, react correctly when something goes wrong which will get your best performance. This will be enough to win most close matches.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2548 - 13/10/2023 13:31:37    2508168

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "With the greatest respect, anyone who has ever worked with a performance psychologist would not say that.

It's worth probably ten times what you're saying.

Look at niamh Fitzpatrick in 96. That team was better in 91 and 93 and they were experts at losing finals. Offaly were the best team in Ireland in 96 and wexford destroyed them. The only difference was mental prep.

The same can be said for what Billy Walsh achieved with the high performance unit. In one Olympic camp between 04 and 08 from 1 qualified boxer to 3 medals.

I'm lucky enough to have worked with psychologist professionally and in sport. They can unlock things that you don't know you have, and remove obstacles you didn't even know were there."
Well said Doyler. I've been advocating the importance of a psychologist for some time now.
I'm no expert on psychology but logic tells me that it does have a role to play in the mental approach of any serious athlete. Be it a team sport or an individual. Its all about keeping your head when it matters. Converting scoring chances when it matters. Not panicking when under pressure and been able to push on if ahead when the clock is ticking down.
We need a psychologist to help us to be controlled, Help us to be consistent. Help us to look at ourselves honestly and a willingness to work on areas of weakness.
A physiologist could, and I stress could be the missing cog that we need to give us an edge over the opposition.

Magpie2 (Wexford) - Posts: 230 - 13/10/2023 13:45:09    2508174

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Consider what viking said.

If we had a decent sport psychologist we'd have been in the last two leinster finals.

It's the difference between making the right decision under pressure that secures a vital score.

Liam Ryan's handpass to Oisín pepper at the end of the Dublin game in 22 is a perfect example."
Re. that Liam Ryan pass - not sure how widely known this is, but I know Ryan said afterwards that he thought it was Rory O'Connor he was passing to. Am sure he meant no disrespect to his Rapps colleague, but if he'd realised it was the relatively inexperienced Pepper instead, he'd more than likely have taken on the shot himself.

So his decision to pass instead of shoot wasn't out of lack of confidence in his own ability, but was instead in the mistaken belief that he was giving the ball to somebody he was even more confident would find the target.

I don't think any psychologist could help with a case of mistaken identity like that when you see a flash of a Wexford jersey and a white helmet and you've only got a split second to make a decision.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2155 - 13/10/2023 13:45:52    2508175

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Does anyone know if Kilkenny ever use a sports psychologist?

I've never seen it mentioned, but maybe they have one in their backroom team.

Past hurler (None) - Posts: 698 - 13/10/2023 14:02:03    2508179

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Re. that Liam Ryan pass - not sure how widely known this is, but I know Ryan said afterwards that he thought it was Rory O'Connor he was passing to. Am sure he meant no disrespect to his Rapps colleague, but if he'd realised it was the relatively inexperienced Pepper instead, he'd more than likely have taken on the shot himself.

So his decision to pass instead of shoot wasn't out of lack of confidence in his own ability, but was instead in the mistaken belief that he was giving the ball to somebody he was even more confident would find the target.

I don't think any psychologist could help with a case of mistaken identity like that when you see a flash of a Wexford jersey and a white helmet and you've only got a split second to make a decision."
That's a fair observation but would a psychologist have impact pepper's devision?

Time is subjective too. If the individual is calm rather than panicked, it feels like there's more time to think about what you're doing and perhaps identify the correct player. Not saying this is 100% or anything. Just a thought.

Regardless, there are hundreds of examples of this throughout the Egan era that are the difference between almost being relegated or winning silverware and competing in the last four.

It's not a bad group of players we have. For me the have underachieved. All of us as supporters are just trying to find ways to do better.

Final thing on the psychology point.

We're already producing players and coaching them. So is everyone else.

Waterford produce great players yet they can't win a match.

More of what we're already doing will produce the same result.

We need to constructively consider what we're not doing.

A good psychologist for me is a very simple thing we can do for an immediate improvement in our fortunes.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2548 - 13/10/2023 14:12:55    2508184

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