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#Commodore.
The threads getting messed up and getting confusing, so Ill start again.
I dont want exact equality of wealth. I want equality of opportunity. Im not as wealthy as I could be, but that was my choice. Im happy with the choices I made.
I realise the importance of education, and Ive made sure my children have gone to schools which reflect the importance I put on education. I've positively encouraged them to remain in school until they do their leaving certs. Ive told them that I dont mind if they go on to 3rd level education, get a job which provides job specific training and a career path, or do an apprenticeship. What Ive told them Im not doing is paying for their food while they lie on my sofa at the age of 25.
Some children come from disadvantaged backgrounds and dont get this encouragement at home. And certainly dont get it from their peer group.
As a country it seems we just conveniently forget these lads.
And thats not equality of opportunity as far as I see it.
As regards what the state can do, more money needs to be spent on parent education in disadvantaged areas, and contacts with youth and social workers pointing out the different life choices that can be made. Im 100% certain that most of the people in those areas are entirely unaware of the grants you speak of.
Maybe this obscuring of information is, as you say, motivated by a perceived need to be careful with taxpayers money. But thats a shortsighted and false economy. If you reduced the "cant work, wont work" section of society by 50% say for talks sake, you will save far more on DSP payments than the cost of 3rd level grants and increased numbers of social and youth workers. And thats before taking into account the increase in tax revenue from the 50% that will then be working. You will also save a fortune in other types of social services to do with rehabilitation, from crime and drug and alcohol misuse, law and order expenses, court expenses, and prison expenses.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19194 - 11/04/2026 18:05:08
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Two Irish men showing the world how to play golf. Go on Shane and Rory.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2622 - 11/04/2026 20:43:21
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Some children come from disadvantaged backgrounds and dont get this encouragement at home. And certainly dont get it from their peer group.As a country it seems we just conveniently forget these lads, and that's not equality of opportunity as far as I see it.
I get your point about lack of encouragement at home and from peers, but at Secondary schools, they have dedicated teachers that talk to each class and also talk to students individually about what they want to do after school and what paths are available. This isn't only for 3rd level education, its career guidance, where depending on what they student is interested in, they provide the guidance on how to pursure that, even if its an apprenticeship or working in bar.
As regards what the state can do, more money needs to be spent on parent education in disadvantaged areas, and contacts with youth and social workers pointing out the different life choices that can be made. Im 100% certain that most of the people in those areas are entirely unaware of the grants you speak of.
I won't disagree, I have no doubt based on what you are saying, that career guidance teachers in some areas are either not covering all students or the ball is being dropped by those schools. That's a major failure, because making young students aware of the different paths and options available to them should be a priority. You raise a good point about making parent aware, that is something that needs to be considered, because my own parents had no idea and never encouraged 3rd level, because they feared they couldn't afford it for me until I presented the options to them.
You will also save a fortune in other types of social services to do with rehabilitation, from crime and drug and alcohol misuse, law and order expenses, court expenses, and prison expenses.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19177 - 11/04/2026 18:05:08
I don't fully agree, I know a people who had the same opportunities as me, who made a choices to either leave school before or after Leaving Cert and not pursue any further education despite the options and funding available. That was personal choice, not lack of equality.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1727 - 11/04/2026 22:21:50
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Replying To Commodore: "Some children come from disadvantaged backgrounds and dont get this encouragement at home. And certainly dont get it from their peer group.As a country it seems we just conveniently forget these lads, and that's not equality of opportunity as far as I see it.
I get your point about lack of encouragement at home and from peers, but at Secondary schools, they have dedicated teachers that talk to each class and also talk to students individually about what they want to do after school and what paths are available. This isn't only for 3rd level education, its career guidance, where depending on what they student is interested in, they provide the guidance on how to pursure that, even if its an apprenticeship or working in bar.
As regards what the state can do, more money needs to be spent on parent education in disadvantaged areas, and contacts with youth and social workers pointing out the different life choices that can be made. Im 100% certain that most of the people in those areas are entirely unaware of the grants you speak of.
I won't disagree, I have no doubt based on what you are saying, that career guidance teachers in some areas are either not covering all students or the ball is being dropped by those schools. That's a major failure, because making young students aware of the different paths and options available to them should be a priority. You raise a good point about making parent aware, that is something that needs to be considered, because my own parents had no idea and never encouraged 3rd level, because they feared they couldn't afford it for me until I presented the options to them.
You will also save a fortune in other types of social services to do with rehabilitation, from crime and drug and alcohol misuse, law and order expenses, court expenses, and prison expenses.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19177 - 11/04/2026 18:05:08
I don't fully agree, I know a people who had the same opportunities as me, who made a choices to either leave school before or after Leaving Cert and not pursue any further education despite the options and funding available. That was personal choice, not lack of equality." "I get your point about lack of encouragement at home and from peers, but at Secondary schools, they have dedicated teachers that talk to each class and also talk to students individually about what they want to do after school and what paths are available. This isn't only for 3rd level education, its career guidance, where depending on what they student is interested in, they provide the guidance on how to pursure that, even if its an apprenticeship or working in bar."
Do children in disadvantaged areas take the odd career guidance class that they get in? And when do they get this advice? Probably after half of them have dropped out. The real evidence, as in 3rd level take up as a percentage of age group population, in area like Tallaght and Ballymun which would be way lower than it is in Blackrock, suggests you are wrong on this point.
All my children did swimming classes for 3 years in National school, at quite significant cost. Not one of them was any better at swimming for this. How much genuine career guidance can 1 person give 30 different people in a few hours spread out over a term? Very little it would appear. Just out of interest when you say you come from a disadvantaged background, did you come from a disadvantaged area and go to school with others from disadvantaged backgrounds? If not that would explain why you still dont seem to be getting the point Im trying to make.
"I don't fully agree, I know a people who had the same opportunities as me, who made a choices to either leave school before or after Leaving Cert and not pursue any further education despite the options and funding available. That was personal choice, not lack of equality"
Im not saying it wasnt personal choice. But in your opinion, as you knew these lads and I don't, do you think it was a well informed choice that they made, and was it freely made? Or did they not really know what their choices might mean when they came to be adults?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19194 - 12/04/2026 11:08:10
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Replying To Viking66: ""I get your point about lack of encouragement at home and from peers, but at Secondary schools, they have dedicated teachers that talk to each class and also talk to students individually about what they want to do after school and what paths are available. This isn't only for 3rd level education, its career guidance, where depending on what they student is interested in, they provide the guidance on how to pursure that, even if its an apprenticeship or working in bar."
Do children in disadvantaged areas take the odd career guidance class that they get in? And when do they get this advice? Probably after half of them have dropped out. The real evidence, as in 3rd level take up as a percentage of age group population, in area like Tallaght and Ballymun which would be way lower than it is in Blackrock, suggests you are wrong on this point.
All my children did swimming classes for 3 years in National school, at quite significant cost. Not one of them was any better at swimming for this. How much genuine career guidance can 1 person give 30 different people in a few hours spread out over a term? Very little it would appear. Just out of interest when you say you come from a disadvantaged background, did you come from a disadvantaged area and go to school with others from disadvantaged backgrounds? If not that would explain why you still dont seem to be getting the point Im trying to make.
"I don't fully agree, I know a people who had the same opportunities as me, who made a choices to either leave school before or after Leaving Cert and not pursue any further education despite the options and funding available. That was personal choice, not lack of equality"
Im not saying it wasnt personal choice. But in your opinion, as you knew these lads and I don't, do you think it was a well informed choice that they made, and was it freely made? Or did they not really know what their choices might mean when they came to be adults?" comparing swimming to career guidance is completely wrong. totally different things and swimming classes with schools is often about simply basics and not to make the kids the next michael phelps but teach them the basics and knowledge to be safe in the water. if you want them to be swimmers you get them to join a swim club where they swim competitively and train for that
A good careers guidance teacher can direct you to the information/courses you wish to pursue.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3961 - 12/04/2026 12:50:57
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Replying To Saynothing: "Two Irish men showing the world how to play golf. Go on Shane and Rory." The Hole in One by Shane was classic! Rory letting the 6 shot lead disappear has me a bit worried.
SouthGalway (Galway) - Posts: 257 - 12/04/2026 13:32:49
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Replying To Viking66: ""I get your point about lack of encouragement at home and from peers, but at Secondary schools, they have dedicated teachers that talk to each class and also talk to students individually about what they want to do after school and what paths are available. This isn't only for 3rd level education, its career guidance, where depending on what they student is interested in, they provide the guidance on how to pursure that, even if its an apprenticeship or working in bar."
Do children in disadvantaged areas take the odd career guidance class that they get in? And when do they get this advice? Probably after half of them have dropped out. The real evidence, as in 3rd level take up as a percentage of age group population, in area like Tallaght and Ballymun which would be way lower than it is in Blackrock, suggests you are wrong on this point.
All my children did swimming classes for 3 years in National school, at quite significant cost. Not one of them was any better at swimming for this. How much genuine career guidance can 1 person give 30 different people in a few hours spread out over a term? Very little it would appear. Just out of interest when you say you come from a disadvantaged background, did you come from a disadvantaged area and go to school with others from disadvantaged backgrounds? If not that would explain why you still dont seem to be getting the point Im trying to make.
"I don't fully agree, I know a people who had the same opportunities as me, who made a choices to either leave school before or after Leaving Cert and not pursue any further education despite the options and funding available. That was personal choice, not lack of equality"
Im not saying it wasnt personal choice. But in your opinion, as you knew these lads and I don't, do you think it was a well informed choice that they made, and was it freely made? Or did they not really know what their choices might mean when they came to be adults?" I didn't want to use specific place names in my argument, but seeing as you have chosen to name Tallaght and Ballymun, let's run with those.
Ballymun is connected to Dublin city centre via frequent bus services, and is a 45 minute walk (11 minute cycle) to DCU.
Tallaght is connected to the city centre by bus and Luas and has it's own University (or at least part of a university).
The 'system' you claim is under-serving the people of these areas is surely the same system that built the universities and infrastructure mentioned above??
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5316 - 12/04/2026 13:57:24
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People given the privilege of singing Amhrán na bhFiann should at least know how to pronoounce the words!
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 4170 - 12/04/2026 14:15:30
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Replying To cavanman47: "I didn't want to use specific place names in my argument, but seeing as you have chosen to name Tallaght and Ballymun, let's run with those.
Ballymun is connected to Dublin city centre via frequent bus services, and is a 45 minute walk (11 minute cycle) to DCU.
Tallaght is connected to the city centre by bus and Luas and has it's own University (or at least part of a university).
The 'system' you claim is under-serving the people of these areas is surely the same system that built the universities and infrastructure mentioned above??" Ive been following this conversation closely.
As someone who spent 10 years working with the people in an area of Dublin comically and socially very similar to the areas that are being referenced and working closely in and with the schools and services in that area( both primary and secondary) i think I have a working knowledge of the challenges faced.
It is my experience that many are lost in primary school. As they go through the years they engage less and less both in terms of attendance and engagement when they are there. Some only attend to be fed. Thats the sad reality.
Most of these kids are disruptive when there and are one by the end of 2nd year in secondary school. They never stood a chance unfortunately.
Then there are the kids thst get a small bit more support from home. However they are heavily influenced by the first batch of kids. They hang around with them outside school and many of them are similarly difficult in school. They tend to follow them out the door after the junior cert/ TY.
The kids that make it to senior cycle were generally identified by the teachers/system in first year and probably primary school as being the ones to make it. Even then they are vulnerable to the influence of the community they come from. They see their former classmates in designer gear and passengers in flashy cars with plenty of money in the pocket. Sime will fall for the life and some for the product that finances the life.
The ones that avoid all that get the reward of the daunting prospect that is the CAO and grant application process. Bare in mind that these kids have no role models/ culture to look up to follow in this regard. Their parents are either on social welfare or in low paid jobs. Their peers are all of the kids lost along the way. They enter a university like UCD or Trinity or Maynooth and everyone around them looks and sounds different and feel like they belong.
The ones that make it do so against all the odds . They deserve great credit for that.
Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 187 - 12/04/2026 14:24:32
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Replying To KillingFields: "comparing swimming to career guidance is completely wrong. totally different things and swimming classes with schools is often about simply basics and not to make the kids the next michael phelps but teach them the basics and knowledge to be safe in the water. if you want them to be swimmers you get them to join a swim club where they swim competitively and train for that
A good careers guidance teacher can direct you to the information/courses you wish to pursue." You are missing the point. The point is a few hours of classes on careers guidance at age 15 or 16 isnt going to make any difference to kids who either arent in school any more, or just see school as some sort of needless chore from when they are 6 or 8. Its too little too late.
If it was making a difference then there would be far more people from disadvantaged backgrounds in 3rd level education.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19194 - 12/04/2026 14:52:36
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Replying To cavanman47: "I didn't want to use specific place names in my argument, but seeing as you have chosen to name Tallaght and Ballymun, let's run with those.
Ballymun is connected to Dublin city centre via frequent bus services, and is a 45 minute walk (11 minute cycle) to DCU.
Tallaght is connected to the city centre by bus and Luas and has it's own University (or at least part of a university).
The 'system' you claim is under-serving the people of these areas is surely the same system that built the universities and infrastructure mentioned above??" How many people, as a percentage of their age group who live in those areas, attend those 3rd level institutions?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19194 - 12/04/2026 14:53:37
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Replying To Tadhg2020: "Ive been following this conversation closely.
As someone who spent 10 years working with the people in an area of Dublin comically and socially very similar to the areas that are being referenced and working closely in and with the schools and services in that area( both primary and secondary) i think I have a working knowledge of the challenges faced.
It is my experience that many are lost in primary school. As they go through the years they engage less and less both in terms of attendance and engagement when they are there. Some only attend to be fed. Thats the sad reality.
Most of these kids are disruptive when there and are one by the end of 2nd year in secondary school. They never stood a chance unfortunately.
Then there are the kids thst get a small bit more support from home. However they are heavily influenced by the first batch of kids. They hang around with them outside school and many of them are similarly difficult in school. They tend to follow them out the door after the junior cert/ TY.
The kids that make it to senior cycle were generally identified by the teachers/system in first year and probably primary school as being the ones to make it. Even then they are vulnerable to the influence of the community they come from. They see their former classmates in designer gear and passengers in flashy cars with plenty of money in the pocket. Sime will fall for the life and some for the product that finances the life.
The ones that avoid all that get the reward of the daunting prospect that is the CAO and grant application process. Bare in mind that these kids have no role models/ culture to look up to follow in this regard. Their parents are either on social welfare or in low paid jobs. Their peers are all of the kids lost along the way. They enter a university like UCD or Trinity or Maynooth and everyone around them looks and sounds different and feel like they belong.
The ones that make it do so against all the odds . They deserve great credit for that." That sums it up Tadhg2020.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19194 - 12/04/2026 14:55:17
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Replying To Tadhg2020: "Ive been following this conversation closely.
As someone who spent 10 years working with the people in an area of Dublin comically and socially very similar to the areas that are being referenced and working closely in and with the schools and services in that area( both primary and secondary) i think I have a working knowledge of the challenges faced.
It is my experience that many are lost in primary school. As they go through the years they engage less and less both in terms of attendance and engagement when they are there. Some only attend to be fed. Thats the sad reality.
Most of these kids are disruptive when there and are one by the end of 2nd year in secondary school. They never stood a chance unfortunately.
Then there are the kids thst get a small bit more support from home. However they are heavily influenced by the first batch of kids. They hang around with them outside school and many of them are similarly difficult in school. They tend to follow them out the door after the junior cert/ TY.
The kids that make it to senior cycle were generally identified by the teachers/system in first year and probably primary school as being the ones to make it. Even then they are vulnerable to the influence of the community they come from. They see their former classmates in designer gear and passengers in flashy cars with plenty of money in the pocket. Sime will fall for the life and some for the product that finances the life.
The ones that avoid all that get the reward of the daunting prospect that is the CAO and grant application process. Bare in mind that these kids have no role models/ culture to look up to follow in this regard. Their parents are either on social welfare or in low paid jobs. Their peers are all of the kids lost along the way. They enter a university like UCD or Trinity or Maynooth and everyone around them looks and sounds different and feel like they belong.
The ones that make it do so against all the odds . They deserve great credit for that." This is the testimony of somebody who's seen reality. Equality my eye. The majority of people don't even know the problem exists.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4431 - 12/04/2026 15:01:11
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Replying To Viking66: "You are missing the point. The point is a few hours of classes on careers guidance at age 15 or 16 isnt going to make any difference to kids who either arent in school any more, or just see school as some sort of needless chore from when they are 6 or 8. Its too little too late.
If it was making a difference then there would be far more people from disadvantaged backgrounds in 3rd level education." What will make a difference?
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8511 - 12/04/2026 16:45:25
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Replying To Tadhg2020: "Ive been following this conversation closely.
As someone who spent 10 years working with the people in an area of Dublin comically and socially very similar to the areas that are being referenced and working closely in and with the schools and services in that area( both primary and secondary) i think I have a working knowledge of the challenges faced.
It is my experience that many are lost in primary school. As they go through the years they engage less and less both in terms of attendance and engagement when they are there. Some only attend to be fed. Thats the sad reality.
Most of these kids are disruptive when there and are one by the end of 2nd year in secondary school. They never stood a chance unfortunately.
Then there are the kids thst get a small bit more support from home. However they are heavily influenced by the first batch of kids. They hang around with them outside school and many of them are similarly difficult in school. They tend to follow them out the door after the junior cert/ TY.
The kids that make it to senior cycle were generally identified by the teachers/system in first year and probably primary school as being the ones to make it. Even then they are vulnerable to the influence of the community they come from. They see their former classmates in designer gear and passengers in flashy cars with plenty of money in the pocket. Sime will fall for the life and some for the product that finances the life.
The ones that avoid all that get the reward of the daunting prospect that is the CAO and grant application process. Bare in mind that these kids have no role models/ culture to look up to follow in this regard. Their parents are either on social welfare or in low paid jobs. Their peers are all of the kids lost along the way. They enter a university like UCD or Trinity or Maynooth and everyone around them looks and sounds different and feel like they belong.
The ones that make it do so against all the odds . They deserve great credit for that." That's an excellent post.
And I agree with it.
But every obstacle you listed, while very real, comes down to human behaviour, and not to any system designed to press these groups.
For example, the 'system' makes it a legal requirement to send your kids to primary school.
The 'system' explicitly prohibits the use of or dealing of Class A drugs.
So again I have to ask:
What is it about the 'system', and not the individual, their parents or their peers (individual choices and behaviour) that is holding them back?
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5316 - 12/04/2026 16:55:23
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Replying To Tadhg2020: "Ive been following this conversation closely.
As someone who spent 10 years working with the people in an area of Dublin comically and socially very similar to the areas that are being referenced and working closely in and with the schools and services in that area( both primary and secondary) i think I have a working knowledge of the challenges faced.
It is my experience that many are lost in primary school. As they go through the years they engage less and less both in terms of attendance and engagement when they are there. Some only attend to be fed. Thats the sad reality.
Most of these kids are disruptive when there and are one by the end of 2nd year in secondary school. They never stood a chance unfortunately.
Then there are the kids thst get a small bit more support from home. However they are heavily influenced by the first batch of kids. They hang around with them outside school and many of them are similarly difficult in school. They tend to follow them out the door after the junior cert/ TY.
The kids that make it to senior cycle were generally identified by the teachers/system in first year and probably primary school as being the ones to make it. Even then they are vulnerable to the influence of the community they come from. They see their former classmates in designer gear and passengers in flashy cars with plenty of money in the pocket. Sime will fall for the life and some for the product that finances the life.
The ones that avoid all that get the reward of the daunting prospect that is the CAO and grant application process. Bare in mind that these kids have no role models/ culture to look up to follow in this regard. Their parents are either on social welfare or in low paid jobs. Their peers are all of the kids lost along the way. They enter a university like UCD or Trinity or Maynooth and everyone around them looks and sounds different and feel like they belong.
The ones that make it do so against all the odds . They deserve great credit for that." and this is where the concept of meritocracy becomes a problem in society. If meritocracy really exists then its their fault for not doing better. People do not want to admit that socioeconomic differences negate the impact of meritocracy and in fact create a structure exclusion. I do not blame anyone who puts the investment into their children, I have done it, as you want the best for your kids but neither do I look down on those who cannot make it and blame them for it. Fixing the problems - I am lost but the one thing is it won't happen if we don't admit to what the problem is.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 2194 - 12/04/2026 17:13:34
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Replying To cavanman47: "That's an excellent post.
And I agree with it.
But every obstacle you listed, while very real, comes down to human behaviour, and not to any system designed to press these groups.
For example, the 'system' makes it a legal requirement to send your kids to primary school.
The 'system' explicitly prohibits the use of or dealing of Class A drugs.
So again I have to ask:
What is it about the 'system', and not the individual, their parents or their peers (individual choices and behaviour) that is holding them back?" The "system" should be educating those parents, peers, and individuals, not ignoring them. The sticky plaster solutions of throwing in a playground here and there, and paying people jobseekers allowance to live on for the rest of their lives, are just papering over the cracks. The "system" should be actively promoting real equality of opportunity.
Next time you are in Dublin take a wee drive round the South Liberties.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19194 - 12/04/2026 17:36:02
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Replying To zinny: "and this is where the concept of meritocracy becomes a problem in society. If meritocracy really exists then its their fault for not doing better. People do not want to admit that socioeconomic differences negate the impact of meritocracy and in fact create a structure exclusion. I do not blame anyone who puts the investment into their children, I have done it, as you want the best for your kids but neither do I look down on those who cannot make it and blame them for it. Fixing the problems - I am lost but the one thing is it won't happen if we don't admit to what the problem is." There is a podcast from Cork City called the 2 Norries. If you search for it on YouTube you will find it. It covers this subject very well. Both are from Corks North side Council estates. Both grew up, went to school and hung out in this environment. Both got into drink, crime and drugs in that order. Both spent years in Cork Prison as a result and came out the other side. One is a Psychologist/Counsellor now and the other is a building contractor/ part time counsellor.
Its well worth a watch listen but one passage/exchange really resonates with me.
The Psychologist talks about career guidance in school and in prison. These guys, as he puts it, talking to him about college and education and role models. Then he says to the other lad who agrees fully that he didnt know anyone that went to college in his area when he was growing up. He says it wasn't even discussed in his peer group. Teachers talked about it alright but the students couldn't relate to it at all. As he went on to say, his role models growing up were the joy riders and drug dealers on his estate. They go on to discuss standing on the hill as the joy riders raced each other around the green before burning them out and wanting to be just like them.
They both conclude that they never really stood a chance.
Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 187 - 12/04/2026 17:49:03
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