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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "You should seriously think about changing your user name!

It doesn't matter what you dress it up as, people who come from other countries are not "we". Especially those only here because they are being paid to be here, and probably wouldn't get anything like the same lifestyle in their own country.

Nor do they pretend to be "new Irish". No more than any Irish person who went to England thought themselves as "new English.""
Take everything you just said, read over it again, then bare in mind you live in a country with a global diaspora of approximately 50 million people. You live in a country whose only export for hundreds of years was people. Dont give me "new Irish", "new English". Anyone who emigrates anywhere does so because they are chasing a better life and money as an extension. People who come here, pay their taxes, pay their way and contribute are "we", and Im proud to say that they are.

Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 587 - 20/03/2023 13:40:07    2465164

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Replying To KillingFields:  "rugby isnt a limited international sport. the team isnt any more of an artificial construct as any other international team in any other sport."
In Ireland, it is artificial. It is bigged up in the media because it is an all-island team, its non-political and generally the players are great people who are good role models. It has a limited international appeal in that it is only played at elite international competitive level by 12/15 teams of which only 4 have ever won the world cup and theyre all England or previous colonies. Im generally with you on your posts btw, and think you have good points to make.

On a personal level, I was a good rugby player in my youth. Played Gaelic football as well, but I was a far better rugby player. I played in the AIL and Leinster underage. Where I get critical of Irish rugby and where I say it is definitely artificial is that when I and my club contemporaries reached 17/18/19 and were vying for contracts and Leinster/Ireland spots we were universally thrown in the bin and spots were given to private schoolboys and other lads who were sons and nephews of big corporate people associated with the Leinster branch. These were lads in some cases I could have outplayed every day of the week. Thats my point. In Leinster at least, the club player, especially from outside Dublin just doesent figure in the grand calculation. I still enjoyed playing until injuries started to set in, but deep down Its an elitist club made up
of an elitist mindset in Irish life. Its a closed shop. I would wager Munster is different however with more of a working class background to its base. Cant speak for Ulster or Connacht.

Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 587 - 20/03/2023 14:00:08    2465184

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Replying To Young_gael:  "Take everything you just said, read over it again, then bare in mind you live in a country with a global diaspora of approximately 50 million people. You live in a country whose only export for hundreds of years was people. Dont give me "new Irish", "new English". Anyone who emigrates anywhere does so because they are chasing a better life and money as an extension. People who come here, pay their taxes, pay their way and contribute are "we", and Im proud to say that they are."
As I said, change your name to Young Global Citizen or something more appropriate. There will be nothing Gaelic about this country in 50 years.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2557 - 20/03/2023 14:01:59    2465186

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Replying To KillingFields:  "rugby isnt a limited international sport. the team isnt any more of an artificial construct as any other international team in any other sport."
It seems a silly rule that if your resident in a country for 3 years you can play for that country… surely you should have some sort of ancestral tie to the country in order to qualify… Irish rugby has benefited big time from this but our soccer team won't have such joy as our local league is unlikely to attract any high quality talent from abroad..,, All of these guys come here for lucrative contracts with the added carrot of playing international rugby as well…. I don't think they really call themselves Irish and as soon as their international career is over they will be quickly back to their real homes… Their presence has greatly helped the Irish set up and will probably inspire a new generation of Irish born rugby players but at the end of the day they are not Irish… If you are born and raised in NZ ,Australia or wherever with no Irish roots then you are not Irish nor do you think you are either… This is not an Irish thing… the other national teams are doing the same thing…

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1928 - 20/03/2023 14:27:07    2465199

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "It seems a silly rule that if your resident in a country for 3 years you can play for that country… surely you should have some sort of ancestral tie to the country in order to qualify… Irish rugby has benefited big time from this but our soccer team won't have such joy as our local league is unlikely to attract any high quality talent from abroad..,, All of these guys come here for lucrative contracts with the added carrot of playing international rugby as well…. I don't think they really call themselves Irish and as soon as their international career is over they will be quickly back to their real homes… Their presence has greatly helped the Irish set up and will probably inspire a new generation of Irish born rugby players but at the end of the day they are not Irish… If you are born and raised in NZ ,Australia or wherever with no Irish roots then you are not Irish nor do you think you are either… This is not an Irish thing… the other national teams are doing the same thing…"
Its changed to 5 years and all sports recognize that people will have different backgrounds. between parents and grand parents and place of birth a person could theoretically be eligible for a lot of countries - could be born in france. mother german, father born in italian, grand parents on both sides could also be born/from different countries so 1 person could through direct heritage be eligible for 6/7 countries.
its not true that those players dont really see themselves as irish. many stay in ireland long term. marry an irish women and have kids who grow up here etc.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 20/03/2023 15:25:08    2465244

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Replying To Young_gael:  "In Ireland, it is artificial. It is bigged up in the media because it is an all-island team, its non-political and generally the players are great people who are good role models. It has a limited international appeal in that it is only played at elite international competitive level by 12/15 teams of which only 4 have ever won the world cup and theyre all England or previous colonies. Im generally with you on your posts btw, and think you have good points to make.

On a personal level, I was a good rugby player in my youth. Played Gaelic football as well, but I was a far better rugby player. I played in the AIL and Leinster underage. Where I get critical of Irish rugby and where I say it is definitely artificial is that when I and my club contemporaries reached 17/18/19 and were vying for contracts and Leinster/Ireland spots we were universally thrown in the bin and spots were given to private schoolboys and other lads who were sons and nephews of big corporate people associated with the Leinster branch. These were lads in some cases I could have outplayed every day of the week. Thats my point. In Leinster at least, the club player, especially from outside Dublin just doesent figure in the grand calculation. I still enjoyed playing until injuries started to set in, but deep down Its an elitist club made up
of an elitist mindset in Irish life. Its a closed shop. I would wager Munster is different however with more of a working class background to its base. Cant speak for Ulster or Connacht."
It isnt articificial though.
Limited international appeal isnt true Its expanding all time and new countries getting through and developing. numbers watching and playing the sport increasing quite a lot which doesnt suggest it has limited appeal.
Many more club(youths rugby) players are coming through to professional level than in the past.
the schools players in general play more. train more and get higher level of training than overwhelming majority of club youths players. the guys in the top schools train 3 times a week, do 2/3 coached gym sessions. do 2/3 video sessions a week prepping and readying themselves for games. they train like pro teams do. players in leinster come through if good enough. they have full time staff solely focused on developing the club game and have a talent coach who's primary role is to develop youths rugby and assess players from that stream. that person for several years was Trevor Hogan. former pro for Leinster and Munster from nenagh.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 20/03/2023 15:31:32    2465247

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Its changed to 5 years and all sports recognize that people will have different backgrounds. between parents and grand parents and place of birth a person could theoretically be eligible for a lot of countries - could be born in france. mother german, father born in italian, grand parents on both sides could also be born/from different countries so 1 person could through direct heritage be eligible for 6/7 countries.
its not true that those players dont really see themselves as irish. many stay in ireland long term. marry an irish women and have kids who grow up here etc."
Are you sure it's not changed from 5 to 3 years for eligibility…. could be wrong… Any sort of allegiance to a country through background is surely better than non at all…CJ Stander wasn't long upping sticks when a better offer from home came along…it's only natural

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1928 - 20/03/2023 15:50:22    2465254

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Are you sure it's not changed from 5 to 3 years for eligibility…. could be wrong… Any sort of allegiance to a country through background is surely better than non at all…CJ Stander wasn't long upping sticks when a better offer from home came along…it's only natural"
"CJ Stander wasn't long upping sticks when a better offer from home came along…it's only natural"

What 'better offer from home? CJ Stander retired from playing rugby, when he left Ireland to return to South Africa. He gave his reasons as 'a desire to raise his young daughter around his family in South Africa, to leave the game whilst still in good form, and to reduce the burden placed on his young family by a professional rugby players career'. He now works for a construction company.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2466 - 20/03/2023 16:29:30    2465281

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Replying To KillingFields:  "It isnt articificial though.
Limited international appeal isnt true Its expanding all time and new countries getting through and developing. numbers watching and playing the sport increasing quite a lot which doesnt suggest it has limited appeal.
Many more club(youths rugby) players are coming through to professional level than in the past.
the schools players in general play more. train more and get higher level of training than overwhelming majority of club youths players. the guys in the top schools train 3 times a week, do 2/3 coached gym sessions. do 2/3 video sessions a week prepping and readying themselves for games. they train like pro teams do. players in leinster come through if good enough. they have full time staff solely focused on developing the club game and have a talent coach who's primary role is to develop youths rugby and assess players from that stream. that person for several years was Trevor Hogan. former pro for Leinster and Munster from nenagh."
That put you in your box, Young_gael. Leinster players come through, if they're good enough, according to KillingFields. 'Self assessment' is no assessment, might be the moral of the story?

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3422 - 20/03/2023 16:30:47    2465283

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Are you sure it's not changed from 5 to 3 years for eligibility…. could be wrong… Any sort of allegiance to a country through background is surely better than non at all…CJ Stander wasn't long upping sticks when a better offer from home came along…it's only natural"
Its extended from 3 years to 5.
CJ stander retired playing. what better offer did he get from south africa?
Many others stay in ireland.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 20/03/2023 16:32:29    2465285

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Its changed to 5 years and all sports recognize that people will have different backgrounds. between parents and grand parents and place of birth a person could theoretically be eligible for a lot of countries - could be born in france. mother german, father born in italian, grand parents on both sides could also be born/from different countries so 1 person could through direct heritage be eligible for 6/7 countries.
its not true that those players dont really see themselves as irish. many stay in ireland long term. marry an irish women and have kids who grow up here etc."
I do not know of one single person who was born in another country - including Irish people who have moved to the UK, US, Australia or anywhere else - who consider themselves to be other than their actual nationality.

Indeed if you were living six months in most of the countries where the "new Irish" come from and you claimed you were a "new" one of them and wanted a passport and full citizenship, or social welfare for life and a house you wouldn't be long about being let know how new you are :-)

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2557 - 20/03/2023 16:38:10    2465288

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Replying To Young_gael:  "That quote is often ascribed to Eamon deValera, who was a rugby player in his youth. One has to say there likely is truth in it as well. We have a very unique sporting armosphere and I must be one of very few who watched GAA, rugby, and soccer and likes all three - and can dissociate them depending on my company. Its sad that most Irish most people have one or two they like and tend to hate the third, its a strange dynamic. The three just dont mix.

On international soccer, wish them well but I have a terribly bleak outlook I must say. Id back a merger with the NI team and start again as someone else said earlier. ROI football and the FAI brand is on its knees. On that... its likely coming but will take another generation.

On the rugby, delighted with the slam, and I think we have a special team atm, but the farcical nature of the WC means 2/3 big dogs are going out early. If any Irish team can get the semis and beyond, its this one. Sexton needs to minded. Without him the wheels fall off."
GAA fans are the most broad-minded here.

Vast majority of GAA fans will follow club soccer (whether Irish or Premiership) of some sort, and international rugby. Quite a few follow provincial rugby too.

But GAA barely exists for Dublin-based Rugby fans, and soccer doesn't exist at all for Dublin-based rugby fans. (I knew a former Lions player who was dragged along to an international soccer match once. He said it was the most boring thing he had ever seen in his life, and no amount of my rhapsodising about e.g., Pirlo in midfield was ever going to change his views on that ….)

Soccer fans who follow Irish soccer clubs will have a passing interest in GAA, but very little interest in Rugby.

Urban soccer fans who follow Premiership clubs generally have zero awareness of Rugby and they view GAA with open contempt.

Part of this is the nature of each game. Gaelic football combines aspects of Rugby and soccer, and GAA players can adapt to either - the bigger GAA lads can adapt to Rugby, and the lighter GAA lads can adapt to soccer. GAA players in my club play local semi-pro soccer regularly every year. But very few soccer players will want to give Rugby a try, and very few Rugby players will want to give soccer a go.

points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 239 - 20/03/2023 17:12:18    2465302

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Are you sure it's not changed from 5 to 3 years for eligibility…. could be wrong… Any sort of allegiance to a country through background is surely better than non at all…CJ Stander wasn't long upping sticks when a better offer from home came along…it's only natural"
Its longer now than it was in past. its 5 years now when it had been 3.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 20/03/2023 17:14:13    2465303

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "I do not know of one single person who was born in another country - including Irish people who have moved to the UK, US, Australia or anywhere else - who consider themselves to be other than their actual nationality.

Indeed if you were living six months in most of the countries where the "new Irish" come from and you claimed you were a "new" one of them and wanted a passport and full citizenship, or social welfare for life and a house you wouldn't be long about being let know how new you are :-)"
Ive a former primary school classmate who moved to Australia as a 8 year old and has been there 20 years and now married to an aussie and considers himself irish australian. he has spent all adult life and most of his childhood in oz
he's now married to an aussie etc.
you are getting very hard right here barney and quite xenophobic. its not right
most who come here dont get anything near like getting a passport and full citizenship until theyve legally spent several years here not 6 months.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 20/03/2023 17:23:52    2465306

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Its longer now than it was in past. its 5 years now when it had been 3."
I stand corrected… Thank you KillingFields..!

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1928 - 20/03/2023 17:51:30    2465322

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Replying To points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet:  "GAA fans are the most broad-minded here.

Vast majority of GAA fans will follow club soccer (whether Irish or Premiership) of some sort, and international rugby. Quite a few follow provincial rugby too.

But GAA barely exists for Dublin-based Rugby fans, and soccer doesn't exist at all for Dublin-based rugby fans. (I knew a former Lions player who was dragged along to an international soccer match once. He said it was the most boring thing he had ever seen in his life, and no amount of my rhapsodising about e.g., Pirlo in midfield was ever going to change his views on that ….)

Soccer fans who follow Irish soccer clubs will have a passing interest in GAA, but very little interest in Rugby.

Urban soccer fans who follow Premiership clubs generally have zero awareness of Rugby and they view GAA with open contempt.

Part of this is the nature of each game. Gaelic football combines aspects of Rugby and soccer, and GAA players can adapt to either - the bigger GAA lads can adapt to Rugby, and the lighter GAA lads can adapt to soccer. GAA players in my club play local semi-pro soccer regularly every year. But very few soccer players will want to give Rugby a try, and very few Rugby players will want to give soccer a go."
And you were slagging other people for stereotypes :-)

Casual TV supporters of all games will watch anything generally if there's a bit of a buzz about them. The big loser in that of course is Irish soccer as it is very poorly attended. No interest in soccer of any description but can at least empathise with people who go out and watch their local team rather than endure the drone of Sky Sports.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2557 - 20/03/2023 18:14:32    2465335

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Ive a former primary school classmate who moved to Australia as a 8 year old and has been there 20 years and now married to an aussie and considers himself irish australian. he has spent all adult life and most of his childhood in oz
he's now married to an aussie etc.
you are getting very hard right here barney and quite xenophobic. its not right
most who come here dont get anything near like getting a passport and full citizenship until theyve legally spent several years here not 6 months."
I'm not "getting" very anything. I have same opinions as I had best part of 50 years ago when i would have been described, probably by chaps like yourself, as a "hard Provo" :-)

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2557 - 20/03/2023 18:16:42    2465338

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "I do not know of one single person who was born in another country - including Irish people who have moved to the UK, US, Australia or anywhere else - who consider themselves to be other than their actual nationality.

Indeed if you were living six months in most of the countries where the "new Irish" come from and you claimed you were a "new" one of them and wanted a passport and full citizenship, or social welfare for life and a house you wouldn't be long about being let know how new you are :-)"
Huge difference Barney between landing here and getting benefits from the state and getting citizenship. Especially if you land from a non-EU country. Citizenship is a rigourous process though no doubts some, very few though, arrivals from abroad found a few ways to speed up or guarantee citizenship status.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7345 - 20/03/2023 18:48:01    2465345

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Are you sure it's not changed from 5 to 3 years for eligibility…. could be wrong… Any sort of allegiance to a country through background is surely better than non at all…CJ Stander wasn't long upping sticks when a better offer from home came along…it's only natural"
I don't mind people debating the rights or wrongs of residency rules but when you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about it's best to stay silent. As pointed out already Stander retired from rugby and actually turned down offer from SA to come out of retirement.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7896 - 20/03/2023 20:02:47    2465366

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Are you sure it's not changed from 5 to 3 years for eligibility…. could be wrong… Any sort of allegiance to a country through background is surely better than non at all…CJ Stander wasn't long upping sticks when a better offer from home came along…it's only natural"
James Lowe gave a very honest interview a few years back that he got in some bother for before he made his Ireland debut. He said the eligibility rule was stupid and that it was weird he would be considered Irish. As he said himself, he always dreamed of being an All-Black but sometimes you have to forget about dreams and think about opportunity and €€€s. Fair play to him, he has been a real success in green and proven to be a great recruit by the IRFU.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 20/03/2023 20:52:18    2465374

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