National Forum

Non-Gaa Forum

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To Galway9801:  "
Replying To REDANDBLACK30:  "[quote=KillingFields:  "Trump was able to capitalise on a general discontent, an understandable one too, with how mainstream politicians in America were managing the country, and I enjoyed watching him make the Bushes and Clintons et al squirm.
This won't happen in this country because no matter how bad it gets, and its going to get bad, ff and fg know that our populace will always give them enough votes to lead, which means that in our own way, we too must be at least a little brainwashed.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1316 - 20/09/2022 10:44:37

Jeez you're a big trump apologist... He was able to capitalize on a general discontent and yes we are not going to see too much of a change in ireland but we are far from brainwashed. the huge changes in society and culture in this country in past few decades show that isnt true at all

Trump is the biggest threat to democracy in America since the foundation of the state. He was and remains a hugely corrosive and divisive figure who wields immense power in the Republican Party. No good can come from him.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5814 - 20/09/2022 11:04:51

Yep. he harnessed and built on the tea party section of the republicans and has very much widened the gap and differences between Left and Right

I'm not so sure about your analysis of voting trends in this country, FF and FG are struggling badly in the polls amongst the millennials and that means anyone under 40 these days. They need to make some inroads into the cost of living and housing or else they will be out on their backsides come the next general election.
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2189 - 20/09/2022 11:58:24
They may struggle on polls but most likely will still be in power next time round as Sinn Fein wont get enough seats and few or no others will join them to make a government.

Census in the North on Thursday expected to show a Nationalist/ Catholic majority for the first time. United Ireland still not in sight in the short term as a sizeable 20%-25% of those of the Nationalist/ Catholic tradition has been indoctrinated into the British state. It was always thought that a Catholic/ Nationalist majority would mean a United Ireland but that no longer holds. It is fairly ironic and laughable that these former Nationalists are now propping up the state of those in Unionism who sought to make them second class citizens. Still will be a momentous development for Unionists to find themselves a minority in a state they created for that never to be the case. The Unionist state has gone forever at least.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1549 - 20/09/2022 13:47:55
20-25% of Catholics havent been indoctrinated into British State. they simply see many of the benefits of British state system being far better than being in the republic.

Trump is not the greatest threat to democracy in American history ffs. Don't be so extreme.
The media has had an absolute shocker throughout the course of his candidacy and presidency. The pro Clinton /Biden leanings of all but a few stations was like something you'd see in a 3rd world country,with twitter, Facebook, cnn etc suppressing stories that might hurt Biden in the run up to the 2020 election. Outrageous carry on for a so called democracy.
A partial media is a far greater threat to democracy than Trump.
Also, any politician outside of the centre is by their very nature divisive,he's no less divisive than Krystal Matthews (look up her speech on getting elected), except for his profile.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1316 - 20/09/2022 14:12:30
Nonsense.
Trump was totally the worst threat to democracy considering his actions, isolationism, etc etc


Well to use one example, in the aftermath of Bidens victory, I heard many people say that its great to have a man in the white house who respects women, when in fact numerous women have accused Biden of sexual assault.
Trump has been accused of being a homophobe, when actually he's the first president to ever enter office supporting same sex marriage (Obama started supporting it after getting elected after his army of pr advisers told him to).
I could be here all day giving other examples, the laptop is another one, if that was one of trumps sons it'd be 1000 times bigger a story.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1316 - 20/09/2022 15:56:54
numerous women? maybe there were allegations but with some of them they were proven to be false.
Trump is far from a big supporter of gay rights.

Definitely there should be a move to 32 County Socialist Republic within the next few years. The cost of living crisis shows there needs to be a big redistribution of wealth on this island. A lot of people are really struggling while others have a lot more than they need. Everyone should have a half decent quality of life and we need a Republic that's wants the best for all its citizens and not just "elites". Also Covid highlighted the need for all Ireland approach going forward.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1549 - 20/09/2022 16:50:07

What exactly do you see as a 32 county socialist republic? and what would it bring to ireland and its people?
how would you redistribute wealth anyway?"
They have absolutely been indoctrinated. Morally the partition of Ireland is wrong and is a relic of colonialism. Either they have never read a history book or they choose to turn a blind eye to this. Also economically living standards in the Republic are far higher than in the North (look at the difference in benefits for instance). The only tangible benefit is the NHS. In the early 1900s the North was the most prosperous region of Ireland shipbuilding etc but since partition that has totally flipped especially since the Celtic tiger.

A Socialist 32 County Republic would really help Ireland. Like if you capped the maximum possible wage of an individual at €60,000 then you could make the lowest salary of a full time at €40,000 thus reducing inequality in society and the need for food banks. It would stop greed and lead to a fairer distribution of resources. Also the British would be gone their imperialism has held Ireland back from reaching its full potential."
I don't know myself, but could you give a figure of how much money the government would lose in tax if they decided to cap the wage at 60k.
I'm a postman and many of my colleagues who do alot of overtime would earn over 60k a year. Would you ban them from doing overtime then or what?
Would doctors, employers etc be banned from earning that money too? I'm sure they'd be happy to take their business elsewhere if your plan was implemented."]I don't know myself, but could you give a figure of how much money the government would lose in tax if they decided to cap the wage at 60k. I'm a postman and many of my colleagues who do alot of overtime would earn over 60k a year. Would you ban them from doing overtime then or what? Would doctors, employers etc be banned from earning that money too? I'm sure they'd be happy to take their business elsewhere if your plan was implemented." Galway9801

Is it yourself, Ja? Big fan of your work, if so.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 21/09/2022 15:45:51    2441444

Link

Trump is a streetwise salesemen. Expanded his market and told enough of the electorate what they wanted to hear to get elected. The 'liberal' Democrats helped, didn't take him for a credible candidate, ran one of their worst presidential election candidates against him, completely complacent about the outcome. A lot of Trump voters are uneducated beyond maybe high school, believe a lot of what they hear on television and unsocial media so easy to get them to buy what you're selling. They'd spend $20 on gas to get to Walmart to save $10 in a Black Friday sale. Some good people involved with both Republican and Democrat parties.Arguably the right in the US are more socialist than the left. But it's easier to be a 'liberal' Democrat when your parents money paid for your third level education, helping you to get a good job, earn good money, travel otside the U.S, be more openminded to new ideas, maybe even be 'tolerant', or not. Arguably the right in the US are more socialist than the left. Money in the bank, educated, fairly openminded, Obamacare seems like a plan you can easily afford. Working class, uneducated, some of your hard earned cash going to Obamacare isn't such a good plan for you. Then you see this mad lad on the telly, The Don, telling you he'll build a wall, smash Obamacare, curb the terrorists, the stuff you want to hear. Not a hard choice who to vote for, him or the charismatic lady who didn't leave her philandering husband.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 6882 - 21/09/2022 15:58:51    2441447

Link

Bullard and Keane. Football and fishing.

link

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 6882 - 21/09/2022 16:25:34    2441453

Link

They have absolutely been indoctrinated. Morally the partition of Ireland is wrong and is a relic of colonialism. Either they have never read a history book or they choose to turn a blind eye to this. Also economically living standards in the Republic are far higher than in the North (look at the difference in benefits for instance). The only tangible benefit is the NHS. In the early 1900s the North was the most prosperous region of Ireland shipbuilding etc but since partition that has totally flipped especially since the Celtic tiger.

A Socialist 32 County Republic would really help Ireland. Like if you capped the maximum possible wage of an individual at €60,000 then you could make the lowest salary of a full time at €40,000 thus reducing inequality in society and the need for food banks. It would stop greed and lead to a fairer distribution of resources. Also the British would be gone their imperialism has held Ireland back from reaching its full potential.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1552 - 20/09/2022 19:30:49

I dont think you know what indoctrination is if you honestly believe what we are talking about is indoctrination.
I dont see how irelands partition is morally or anyway else wrong. Living standards are higher in the republic but id take NHS and some other aspects of life in north over the republic any day of the week....

You say a socialist 32 county republic but what exactly do you mean by that?
Capping a max wage at just 60'000 and minimum of just 40'000 is delusional. could and should never happen. wouldnt be feasible and standards of living would drop hugely as would tax income and there would be a brain drain as the best and brightest would leave the country to where they would be paid at a level they deserved.


It all depends on the parliamentary arithmetic, as in any political system. FF in particular are a bunch of chancers who will do anything to get a few bums on ministerial seats, so I wouldn't be so sure that it can't happen. Not so long ago we were told that an FF/FG coalition was impossible.

FF/FG have been playing the "greens under the bed" card for the last few years, since SF became a real competitor to them, conveniently ignoring: (1) the origins of their own parties; and (2) that those same parties have been championing SF's involvement in parliamentary politics/government in the North in the past three decades. Utter hypocrisy.

Again: as long as FF/FG prioritize the needs of vested interests over those of a growing proportion of the Irish people, they will continue to decline.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2191 - 21/09/2022 09:19:46

i dont like FF. But wouldnt call them chancers. Any party who's been in government for as long as they have in this state isnt a bunch of chancers.

Yeah it would be very hard to implement but if there is a will there is a way. You are probably right that elites etc would always block it from happening. A Universal Basic Income (UBI) say €25,000 -€30,000 would be easy to implement if an Irish government had the will to do so. UBI has been trialled in Finland with several positive societal developments; the basic income in Finland led to a small increase in employment, significantly boosted multiple measures of the recipients' well-being, and reinforced positive individual and societal feedback loops. UBI would provide individuals with at least a moderate standard of living.

I watched a show about Dan Breen recently on TG4 and it said that Irish freedom fighters didn't fight for poverty and unemployment but to improve the lives of all Irish people. Breen described how life under British rule made people "serfs". The poverty in Dublin under British rule was stark. A lot of people have a good standard of living and independence has improved the lives of Irish people no doubt but some people have been let behind and they must be helped in different economic times. Also a United Ireland must be achieved as the rebels of 1916 did not fight for to establish a 26 county Republic, but a 32 county Republic.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1552 - 21/09/2022 13:07:52
Some very big differences between us and the finns. In how they think, how they educate and how they work.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2935 - 21/09/2022 17:15:25    2441456

Link

Capping salaries at 60k has to be the most stupid thing iver ever heard here. It would literally bankrupt us overnight and lead to hundreds of thousands of job losses not to mention a brain drain with over a million leaving the country. How would we attract experts in the field of medicine with wages of 60k? Madness

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11054 - 21/09/2022 20:42:39    2441481

Link

i dont like FF. But wouldnt call them chancers. Any party who's been in government for as long as they have in this state isnt a bunch of chancers.

Ah here! Let me introduce you to a few historical crises caused by said bunch of chancers, namely the economic war of the 1930s; their pro-inflationary policies in the late 70s that presaged our economic crisis in the 1980s; and their term in office in the late 90s/2000s which forced the country to go cap in hand to the EU and IMF a few years later.

They are nothing if not chancers, and I haven't seen anything to change my mind in recent years on that score.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 22/09/2022 08:02:03    2441495

Link

Replying To Gleebo:  "I'm not so sure about your analysis of voting trends in this country, FF and FG are struggling badly in the polls amongst the millennials and that means anyone under 40 these days. They need to make some inroads into the cost of living and housing or else they will be out on their backsides come the next general election.
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2189 - 20/09/2022 11:58:24

They may struggle on polls but most likely will still be in power next time round as Sinn Fein wont get enough seats and few or no others will join them to make a government.

It all depends on the parliamentary arithmetic, as in any political system. FF in particular are a bunch of chancers who will do anything to get a few bums on ministerial seats, so I wouldn't be so sure that it can't happen. Not so long ago we were told that an FF/FG coalition was impossible.

FF/FG have been playing the "greens under the bed" card for the last few years, since SF became a real competitor to them, conveniently ignoring: (1) the origins of their own parties; and (2) that those same parties have been championing SF's involvement in parliamentary politics/government in the North in the past three decades. Utter hypocrisy.

Again: as long as FF/FG prioritize the needs of vested interests over those of a growing proportion of the Irish people, they will continue to decline."
Vested interests - a well used phrase in politics that is used when someone with no other ideas and understand want to criticize something - the use of the words have come to mean something dirty or corrupt in politics. There are always going to be vested interests in ever decision made. The job of people opposing them is to come up with realistic alternatives not just to spout off its been made for vested interests or to show why its the wrong decision. If anyone thinks that any of the "vested interests" policies would get reversed by SF if they were in government, they are living in dreamland.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1512 - 22/09/2022 08:05:54    2441496

Link

Replying To REDANDBLACK30:  "
Replying To Galway9801:  "[quote=REDANDBLACK30:  "[quote=KillingFields:  "Trump was able to capitalise on a general discontent, an understandable one too, with how mainstream politicians in America were managing the country, and I enjoyed watching him make the Bushes and Clintons et al squirm.
This won't happen in this country because no matter how bad it gets, and its going to get bad, ff and fg know that our populace will always give them enough votes to lead, which means that in our own way, we too must be at least a little brainwashed.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1316 - 20/09/2022 10:44:37

Jeez you're a big trump apologist... He was able to capitalize on a general discontent and yes we are not going to see too much of a change in ireland but we are far from brainwashed. the huge changes in society and culture in this country in past few decades show that isnt true at all

Trump is the biggest threat to democracy in America since the foundation of the state. He was and remains a hugely corrosive and divisive figure who wields immense power in the Republican Party. No good can come from him.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5814 - 20/09/2022 11:04:51

Yep. he harnessed and built on the tea party section of the republicans and has very much widened the gap and differences between Left and Right

I'm not so sure about your analysis of voting trends in this country, FF and FG are struggling badly in the polls amongst the millennials and that means anyone under 40 these days. They need to make some inroads into the cost of living and housing or else they will be out on their backsides come the next general election.
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2189 - 20/09/2022 11:58:24
They may struggle on polls but most likely will still be in power next time round as Sinn Fein wont get enough seats and few or no others will join them to make a government.

Census in the North on Thursday expected to show a Nationalist/ Catholic majority for the first time. United Ireland still not in sight in the short term as a sizeable 20%-25% of those of the Nationalist/ Catholic tradition has been indoctrinated into the British state. It was always thought that a Catholic/ Nationalist majority would mean a United Ireland but that no longer holds. It is fairly ironic and laughable that these former Nationalists are now propping up the state of those in Unionism who sought to make them second class citizens. Still will be a momentous development for Unionists to find themselves a minority in a state they created for that never to be the case. The Unionist state has gone forever at least.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1549 - 20/09/2022 13:47:55
20-25% of Catholics havent been indoctrinated into British State. they simply see many of the benefits of British state system being far better than being in the republic.

Trump is not the greatest threat to democracy in American history ffs. Don't be so extreme.
The media has had an absolute shocker throughout the course of his candidacy and presidency. The pro Clinton /Biden leanings of all but a few stations was like something you'd see in a 3rd world country,with twitter, Facebook, cnn etc suppressing stories that might hurt Biden in the run up to the 2020 election. Outrageous carry on for a so called democracy.
A partial media is a far greater threat to democracy than Trump.
Also, any politician outside of the centre is by their very nature divisive,he's no less divisive than Krystal Matthews (look up her speech on getting elected), except for his profile.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1316 - 20/09/2022 14:12:30
Nonsense.
Trump was totally the worst threat to democracy considering his actions, isolationism, etc etc


Well to use one example, in the aftermath of Bidens victory, I heard many people say that its great to have a man in the white house who respects women, when in fact numerous women have accused Biden of sexual assault.
Trump has been accused of being a homophobe, when actually he's the first president to ever enter office supporting same sex marriage (Obama started supporting it after getting elected after his army of pr advisers told him to).
I could be here all day giving other examples, the laptop is another one, if that was one of trumps sons it'd be 1000 times bigger a story.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1316 - 20/09/2022 15:56:54
numerous women? maybe there were allegations but with some of them they were proven to be false.
Trump is far from a big supporter of gay rights.

Definitely there should be a move to 32 County Socialist Republic within the next few years. The cost of living crisis shows there needs to be a big redistribution of wealth on this island. A lot of people are really struggling while others have a lot more than they need. Everyone should have a half decent quality of life and we need a Republic that's wants the best for all its citizens and not just "elites". Also Covid highlighted the need for all Ireland approach going forward.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1549 - 20/09/2022 16:50:07

What exactly do you see as a 32 county socialist republic? and what would it bring to ireland and its people?
how would you redistribute wealth anyway?"
They have absolutely been indoctrinated. Morally the partition of Ireland is wrong and is a relic of colonialism. Either they have never read a history book or they choose to turn a blind eye to this. Also economically living standards in the Republic are far higher than in the North (look at the difference in benefits for instance). The only tangible benefit is the NHS. In the early 1900s the North was the most prosperous region of Ireland shipbuilding etc but since partition that has totally flipped especially since the Celtic tiger.

A Socialist 32 County Republic would really help Ireland. Like if you capped the maximum possible wage of an individual at €60,000 then you could make the lowest salary of a full time at €40,000 thus reducing inequality in society and the need for food banks. It would stop greed and lead to a fairer distribution of resources. Also the British would be gone their imperialism has held Ireland back from reaching its full potential."
I don't know myself, but could you give a figure of how much money the government would lose in tax if they decided to cap the wage at 60k.
I'm a postman and many of my colleagues who do alot of overtime would earn over 60k a year. Would you ban them from doing overtime then or what?
Would doctors, employers etc be banned from earning that money too? I'm sure they'd be happy to take their business elsewhere if your plan was implemented."]Yeah the cap would be €60,000. If anyone was allowed to break the cap it wouldn't work because no one would adhere to it. Doctors/ employers would hopefully see the societal good it would do and put that that above their own interests. If they didn't they are very selfish. Like the fact they have a professional job would still be reflected in the fact they would earn €20,000 more than those in non professional jobs. Is it right that people have a lot more than they need while others can't even afford the basics?? The key issue is the level of income disparity between the have and have nots is too high and needs to be reduced. I am not an expert but there are many economists and experts who know what needs to be done to fundamentally reshape the economy in a fairer way.

The cap would have to be respected but no overtime for postal workers etc but such workers could be allowed to work a four day week for the same money.
Not sure of a figure the government would lose in taxes but it would be a good few billion but that could be made up by doubling corporation tax/ windfall taxes?? A four day week would also help with work/life balance and people's mental health and reduce stress and anxiety etc. The poor will not be worried about paying bills, people will have more free time etc so the Irish Government would save a lot of money in terms of the health budget which they could then reinvest in vital services."]Wages capped at €60,000. How would that go down with club teams where some pay £30,000 in a plastic bag?

Neartheborder (Derry) - Posts: 29 - 22/09/2022 09:15:08    2441505

Link

Replying To yew_tree:  "Capping salaries at 60k has to be the most stupid thing iver ever heard here. It would literally bankrupt us overnight and lead to hundreds of thousands of job losses not to mention a brain drain with over a million leaving the country. How would we attract experts in the field of medicine with wages of 60k? Madness"
Yeah and not to mention the thousands of skilled workers in tech, pharmaceuticals and engineering. We'd be like Cuba just with worse weather.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 8281 - 22/09/2022 09:38:56    2441508

Link

Replying To TheFlaker:  "2016 you mean? And he was an unknown quantity in 16. He is far less popular now than he was losing an election to Biden in 20. That is the difference. Top republicans quietly backed him pre 20 election, that isn't the case now. Whoever runs for the Republicans will win is just a daft statement."
Yeah, 2016, my mistake.
The Bushes, Cheneys, Romneys etc stopped short of endorsing Clinton but refused to suoport trump too. They definitely didn't want him to run.

Since Bidens win, Russia has invaded the Ukraine, the taliban has taken Afghanistan, illegal immigration has skyrocketed, crime and inflation have both risen dramatically in America, and many Democrats are openly espousing a racist agenda against White Americans.

Nothing is certain, but yes, I think the republican candidate will definitely win in '24, unless the Democrats replace Biden, in which case they'd have a chance.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1359 - 22/09/2022 10:27:48    2441515

Link

Replying To Galway9801:  "Yeah, 2016, my mistake.
The Bushes, Cheneys, Romneys etc stopped short of endorsing Clinton but refused to suoport trump too. They definitely didn't want him to run.

Since Bidens win, Russia has invaded the Ukraine, the taliban has taken Afghanistan, illegal immigration has skyrocketed, crime and inflation have both risen dramatically in America, and many Democrats are openly espousing a racist agenda against White Americans.

Nothing is certain, but yes, I think the republican candidate will definitely win in '24, unless the Democrats replace Biden, in which case they'd have a chance."
I am not for a minute saying Biden has been brilliant but some of the things you listed there he has had no part in. Inflation is a worldwide issue not an American one. What happened in Afghanistan was nothing to do with him, surely you knew the agreements were in place pre Biden? Immigration has been a mess for years, not an easy thing to fix short term. And Russia invading the Ukraine? Is that the fault of Biden? And what did you expect him to do? Attack Russia? Send thousands of troops? Not sure what your point is here? Biden has actually done a lot of good but the noise on the right means it doesn't get as much attention.

As for 24? Name the one or two Republicans you think will definitely win?

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7368 - 22/09/2022 10:49:17    2441521

Link

Replying To Galway9801:  "Yeah, 2016, my mistake.
The Bushes, Cheneys, Romneys etc stopped short of endorsing Clinton but refused to suoport trump too. They definitely didn't want him to run.

Since Bidens win, Russia has invaded the Ukraine, the taliban has taken Afghanistan, illegal immigration has skyrocketed, crime and inflation have both risen dramatically in America, and many Democrats are openly espousing a racist agenda against White Americans.

Nothing is certain, but yes, I think the republican candidate will definitely win in '24, unless the Democrats replace Biden, in which case they'd have a chance."
You're missing the point about Trump. If he doesn't win the nomination he will most likely run as an independent split the Republican vote and possibly sunder the Republican Party permanently . That is what terrifies the Republican hierarchy.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5872 - 22/09/2022 11:17:17    2441529

Link

Replying To Gleebo:  "i dont like FF. But wouldnt call them chancers. Any party who's been in government for as long as they have in this state isnt a bunch of chancers.

Ah here! Let me introduce you to a few historical crises caused by said bunch of chancers, namely the economic war of the 1930s; their pro-inflationary policies in the late 70s that presaged our economic crisis in the 1980s; and their term in office in the late 90s/2000s which forced the country to go cap in hand to the EU and IMF a few years later.

They are nothing if not chancers, and I haven't seen anything to change my mind in recent years on that score."
Theyre not chancers though. Which is what was said.
They knew what they were doing. Yes they have had some big crises but any one in power that long will have. thats natural especially considering our history....
1930s. we were a new state. very poor one as well historically and i will never vote for them ever as i dont agree with their politics if they were chancers theyd never have got the level of electoral succes theyve had in this country

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2935 - 22/09/2022 12:00:00    2441536

Link

Replying To Gleebo:  "Well yes and no. Yes in the sense that they have a lot of cumainn and constituency volunteers and whatnot. They also have a large proportion of the mainstream media on their side, between INM, The Irish Times (who have gone into hysterics since the last general election), RTÉ and the British-owned media outlets.

No in the sense that the segment of the population who you would expect to be influenced heavily by social media (the under 40s) are turning away from them in large numbers.

Ireland does have significant corruption issues and I wouldn't personally admire many domestic politicians, it's kinda a least-worst option scenario a lot of the time."
They only have to please most of the people enough to tick the box once every few years, but they'll do it while people complain all they like about them. Saying the system is wrong, some of them are chancers, choice of the least-worst option etc on here, on unsocial media, chatting with people just enables them even more and the system won't change if you don't use your vote to get them out or get involved in politics. Opinion polls mean very little. If they indicate that the under 40s electorate are disillusioned with the main parties a large number of them are so apathetic they won't bother to vote. Motivating them to vote is important.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 6882 - 22/09/2022 12:11:49    2441538

Link

Replying To zinny:  "
Replying To Gleebo:  "I'm not so sure about your analysis of voting trends in this country, FF and FG are struggling badly in the polls amongst the millennials and that means anyone under 40 these days. They need to make some inroads into the cost of living and housing or else they will be out on their backsides come the next general election.
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2189 - 20/09/2022 11:58:24

They may struggle on polls but most likely will still be in power next time round as Sinn Fein wont get enough seats and few or no others will join them to make a government.

It all depends on the parliamentary arithmetic, as in any political system. FF in particular are a bunch of chancers who will do anything to get a few bums on ministerial seats, so I wouldn't be so sure that it can't happen. Not so long ago we were told that an FF/FG coalition was impossible.

FF/FG have been playing the "greens under the bed" card for the last few years, since SF became a real competitor to them, conveniently ignoring: (1) the origins of their own parties; and (2) that those same parties have been championing SF's involvement in parliamentary politics/government in the North in the past three decades. Utter hypocrisy.

Again: as long as FF/FG prioritize the needs of vested interests over those of a growing proportion of the Irish people, they will continue to decline."
Vested interests - a well used phrase in politics that is used when someone with no other ideas and understand want to criticize something - the use of the words have come to mean something dirty or corrupt in politics. There are always going to be vested interests in ever decision made. The job of people opposing them is to come up with realistic alternatives not just to spout off its been made for vested interests or to show why its the wrong decision. If anyone thinks that any of the "vested interests" policies would get reversed by SF if they were in government, they are living in dreamland."
My mistake, I should have been more explicit.

How about this revision, "For as long as FF/FG put the interests of their friends in the construction industry/ land-owing/auctioneering sectors/ Galway Tent, above those of the majority of people in Ireland, they will continue to decline"?

And yes, of course there are vested interests in the making of any policy decision, I am not suggesting we ban lobbying (although more robust controls on cash-in-politics and transparency would be nice). But we should also expect a weighing of sectoral interests against those of the common good. It's nigh-on impossible for this to happen in an environment where three-quarters of our parliamentarians benefit in a personal financial capacity from the property-related bubble in our country.

Ireland's property market is quite simply a wild west, against all international comparisons. For instance, only in Ireland do we have upward-only-rent reviews. Only in Ireland can cowboy builders go into bankruptcy having avoided implementing the planning laws (Priory Hall, cough cough) and then saddle the taxpayer with the bill.

There are realistic alternatives out there- Vienna, for instance, isn't much bigger than Dublin, but they have a very well-functioning housing market in which rents are capped per square meter, in which they have a sizeable stock of social housing (actually a majority of total units, though you wouldn't think it, they way they are blended into the city), and in which tenants have far better rights than people renting in Dublin. There's a renters' association which offers cheap legal advice to renters, which can result in a rebate of thousands of euro if the landlord has breached the law with the rental contract.

I was looking for a new apartment last year and just for the hell of it, compared similar areas of those two cities- Dublin could be twice as expensive or more for very apartments in similar-type areas. Eoin O' Broin has referred several times to the Vienna model in his advocacy on housing reform in Ireland.

So there are very plausible ideas, which SF have put forward, you just don't want to listen to them.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 22/09/2022 13:06:16    2441542

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "They only have to please most of the people enough to tick the box once every few years, but they'll do it while people complain all they like about them. Saying the system is wrong, some of them are chancers, choice of the least-worst option etc on here, on unsocial media, chatting with people just enables them even more and the system won't change if you don't use your vote to get them out or get involved in politics. Opinion polls mean very little. If they indicate that the under 40s electorate are disillusioned with the main parties a large number of them are so apathetic they won't bother to vote. Motivating them to vote is important."
Very well said and so true. It's far easier to be an "expert" and exercise your thumb whilst not engaging your brain than it is to get up and vote. People are incarcerated under appalling conditions for opposing totalitarian regimes yet we have people here who won't go out and vote.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5872 - 22/09/2022 13:24:32    2441546

Link

Replying To KillingFields:  "
Replying To Gleebo:  "i dont like FF. But wouldnt call them chancers. Any party who's been in government for as long as they have in this state isnt a bunch of chancers.

Ah here! Let me introduce you to a few historical crises caused by said bunch of chancers, namely the economic war of the 1930s; their pro-inflationary policies in the late 70s that presaged our economic crisis in the 1980s; and their term in office in the late 90s/2000s which forced the country to go cap in hand to the EU and IMF a few years later.

They are nothing if not chancers, and I haven't seen anything to change my mind in recent years on that score."
Theyre not chancers though. Which is what was said.
They knew what they were doing. Yes they have had some big crises but any one in power that long will have. thats natural especially considering our history....
1930s. we were a new state. very poor one as well historically and i will never vote for them ever as i dont agree with their politics if they were chancers theyd never have got the level of electoral succes theyve had in this country"
Ah look, for someone who claims not to like FF, you're spending a lot of time defending them.

Yes, they are chancers. I judge politicians and political parties on what they seek to do, not just the winning of power. If winning elections is all that matters, then sure the likes of Fidez in Hungary or Law and Justice in Poland are master statesmen.

FF have no overriding ideology, policy beliefs or moral compass and will simply do whatever they think will win them power. I'm not a big fan of FG either, but through the Tallaght Strategy, they put the national interest above their own party political interests to put a brake on national spending and to avoid an IMF bailout. Hard to see FF ever doing similar.

Every time FF get into government for a significant period (let's say more than one term), there's a crisis in Ireland. From waging an economic war in the 1930s on the British when they were responsible for 90 per cent of our trade; to the mass emigration of the 50s to the overspending that led to severe economic contractions in the 1980s; to sundering the country financially in the 2000s.

They are spoofers. Unfortunately they seem to be an addiction that a good portion of the Irish electorate have trouble kicking, but that doesn't mean they know what they're doing in policy terms.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 22/09/2022 13:37:26    2441547

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "They only have to please most of the people enough to tick the box once every few years, but they'll do it while people complain all they like about them. Saying the system is wrong, some of them are chancers, choice of the least-worst option etc on here, on unsocial media, chatting with people just enables them even more and the system won't change if you don't use your vote to get them out or get involved in politics. Opinion polls mean very little. If they indicate that the under 40s electorate are disillusioned with the main parties a large number of them are so apathetic they won't bother to vote. Motivating them to vote is important."
I didn't say I wouldn't vote. And in terms of polling, they mattered enough two years ago, when large enough numbers of the under 40s turned out enough to finally force Tweedledum and Tweedledee into coalition together, something which few people thought would ever happen.

The relevation that three-quarters of our parliamentarians stand to benefit financially from soaring property values, while doing little or nothing to correct said issues through legislation, might just wake people up enough to get out there and force change. But we'll see.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 22/09/2022 13:42:22    2441548

Link

Replying To Galway9801:  "Yeah, 2016, my mistake.
The Bushes, Cheneys, Romneys etc stopped short of endorsing Clinton but refused to suoport trump too. They definitely didn't want him to run.

Since Bidens win, Russia has invaded the Ukraine, the taliban has taken Afghanistan, illegal immigration has skyrocketed, crime and inflation have both risen dramatically in America, and many Democrats are openly espousing a racist agenda against White Americans.

Nothing is certain, but yes, I think the republican candidate will definitely win in '24, unless the Democrats replace Biden, in which case they'd have a chance."
Didn't Trump try to hold Zelensky to ransom by withholding monies to bolster Ukraine armed forces because he wanted dirt on Bidens son. Thank God he wasn't in power for the Russian invasion, his buddy Putin would be marching down the Champs Elyssie at this stage probably with Trump waving him on.

updwell (Limerick) - Posts: 690 - 23/09/2022 16:00:14    2441659

Link

Replying To Gleebo:  "
Replying To KillingFields:  "[quote=Gleebo:  "i dont like FF. But wouldnt call them chancers. Any party who's been in government for as long as they have in this state isnt a bunch of chancers.

Ah here! Let me introduce you to a few historical crises caused by said bunch of chancers, namely the economic war of the 1930s; their pro-inflationary policies in the late 70s that presaged our economic crisis in the 1980s; and their term in office in the late 90s/2000s which forced the country to go cap in hand to the EU and IMF a few years later.

They are nothing if not chancers, and I haven't seen anything to change my mind in recent years on that score."
Theyre not chancers though. Which is what was said.
They knew what they were doing. Yes they have had some big crises but any one in power that long will have. thats natural especially considering our history....
1930s. we were a new state. very poor one as well historically and i will never vote for them ever as i dont agree with their politics if they were chancers theyd never have got the level of electoral succes theyve had in this country"
Ah look, for someone who claims not to like FF, you're spending a lot of time defending them.

Yes, they are chancers. I judge politicians and political parties on what they seek to do, not just the winning of power. If winning elections is all that matters, then sure the likes of Fidez in Hungary or Law and Justice in Poland are master statesmen.

FF have no overriding ideology, policy beliefs or moral compass and will simply do whatever they think will win them power. I'm not a big fan of FG either, but through the Tallaght Strategy, they put the national interest above their own party political interests to put a brake on national spending and to avoid an IMF bailout. Hard to see FF ever doing similar.

Every time FF get into government for a significant period (let's say more than one term), there's a crisis in Ireland. From waging an economic war in the 1930s on the British when they were responsible for 90 per cent of our trade; to the mass emigration of the 50s to the overspending that led to severe economic contractions in the 1980s; to sundering the country financially in the 2000s.

They are spoofers. Unfortunately they seem to be an addiction that a good portion of the Irish electorate have trouble kicking, but that doesn't mean they know what they're doing in policy terms."]Saying FF have no overriding ideology or policy beliefs just shows you havent a notion.
Ireland was far from only country to get into issues at those times. 50s was post war and all the issues around that. 30s was great depression. if they were just spoofers theyd have been found out about and would not have coome back again and again in power

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2935 - 23/09/2022 16:27:58    2441664

Link