National Forum

Non-Gaa Forum

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To Galway9801:  "I never said banks sell houses and I never equated the respective roles of banks and landlords in the property market.
More putting words in my mouth (are you Breff in disguise?)

Anyways

Yeah for sure the amount of rent being charged is trapping some people, but putting pressure on the market drives rent up. Failure to build and refusal to lend is making money for landlords but that doesn't mean landlords should be held responsible for the problem. (although I'm there are landlords in government circles)

A relaxation of lending rules would absolutely help first time buyers get onto the property ladder. Your suggestion that it would help landlords more makes it look like you're unaware that there are completely different mortgage rates and lending criteria for owner occupied properties and buy to let properties."
To date, we've had a good 'oul back and forth on this issue. It's quite obvious we don't agree on much when it comes to housing. That being said, I try to be respectful, and I don't personally see the need to question if I'm a different poster masquerading as someone else.

I was responding specifically to the post where you yourself said that "you apply completely different outlooks to both entities" (banks and landlords). This statement implied to me that you yourself would treat/view both entities the same.

In relation to knowledge about the different types of mortgage available: yes, I am aware of this. That doesn't mean I know all there is to know about this topic. I don't have all the answers, or most likely none at all.

oceanofnoise (Meath) - Posts: 44 - 29/03/2024 08:58:55    2534417

Link

Replying To zinny:  "I would say the conversation has resorted to hyperbole but I am worried you actually believe rubbish.

Nobody has put forward a formula on how to solve the problem. Have you met a builder out of work? how would you suddenly create new houses - ask Leggo to get involved?

There is nothing wrong with landlords and they are necessary as not everyone can afford or want to take on a mortgage. So what you are asking for is for the state to discriminate against them by saying that the property they are in they need to leave because the landlord needs to sell it to someone who wants to own it and live in it. Ireland took its addiction to owning the house from the UK, in Europe the concept of renting is far common but then again Europeans do not have the same need to show that by owning property they are somehow better than others.

Banks are part of the problem and if you think that they are not taking advantage of the situation they you are pretty naive.
I don't believe anyone hasn't got empathy for people stuck in the current crises however believing in simple solutions is not helping."
Just because Europe don't do it doesn't mean we should.

There are genetic markers of historical oppression that influence our desire to own something. This isn't me being emotive either, this is fact. It has nothing to do with being better than others. I small asset is not much for a lifetime of work.

Yes Europe are more into renting but you have security of tenancy, reasonable rents, you can have pets etc.

True not everyone can afford it, but a vast majority want to.

Do we all have to have standard construction methods? We can build five times as many modular homes without sourcing any new tradesmen.

Relaxing mortgage rules will make it worse. That will only increase competition for limited stock and ultimately increase prices.

The crisis is the banks fault. The taxpayer still holds considerable stake in most banks. We can further limit buy to let mortgages and increase/enforce vacant property penalties.

Then relax planning laws and rezone more land to increase supply of modular homes that can be delivered quickly.

Finance this via state housing agency or perhaps partnership with credit unions. The price is set at an affordable level and first come first serve.

That will solve the problem indefinitely.

Any job should provide enough to have a place to live, otherwise what is the point?

People need to live, not survive.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2759 - 29/03/2024 09:43:57    2534426

Link

Replying To Doylerwex:  "Just because Europe don't do it doesn't mean we should.

There are genetic markers of historical oppression that influence our desire to own something. This isn't me being emotive either, this is fact. It has nothing to do with being better than others. I small asset is not much for a lifetime of work.

Yes Europe are more into renting but you have security of tenancy, reasonable rents, you can have pets etc.

True not everyone can afford it, but a vast majority want to.

Do we all have to have standard construction methods? We can build five times as many modular homes without sourcing any new tradesmen.

Relaxing mortgage rules will make it worse. That will only increase competition for limited stock and ultimately increase prices.

The crisis is the banks fault. The taxpayer still holds considerable stake in most banks. We can further limit buy to let mortgages and increase/enforce vacant property penalties.

Then relax planning laws and rezone more land to increase supply of modular homes that can be delivered quickly.

Finance this via state housing agency or perhaps partnership with credit unions. The price is set at an affordable level and first come first serve.

That will solve the problem indefinitely.

Any job should provide enough to have a place to live, otherwise what is the point?

People need to live, not survive."
I think that's a good post.

I would agree that any full time job should mean ability to own a home.
And I believe I have given examples of exactly how that is in fact the case at present.

But those with more money will always want to live in nicer houses in more convenient locations. That's just human nature.

And those with less money will always have to identify what falls within their means and take 1 of 2 options:
1. Accept that the property you can afford may mean a longer commute to work and won't be as big or as fancy as some others.
2. Reassess your employment situation and make moves to change it, via-skilling, education, job searching, or whatever it may take to improve your situation.


House prices are high here, and banks are slow to lend. That is one side of th argument (and I believe landlords, certainly small landlords, are barely part of problem if not part of the solution)


But the amount of people facing options 1 or 2 above and flat out refusing to do anything but complain about their situation in the hope a magic wand will be waved are a massive part of the problem too.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5028 - 29/03/2024 11:27:38    2534439

Link

Replying To oceanofnoise:  "To date, we've had a good 'oul back and forth on this issue. It's quite obvious we don't agree on much when it comes to housing. That being said, I try to be respectful, and I don't personally see the need to question if I'm a different poster masquerading as someone else.

I was responding specifically to the post where you yourself said that "you apply completely different outlooks to both entities" (banks and landlords). This statement implied to me that you yourself would treat/view both entities the same.

In relation to knowledge about the different types of mortgage available: yes, I am aware of this. That doesn't mean I know all there is to know about this topic. I don't have all the answers, or most likely none at all."
Yeah I've enjoyed it too, and to be clear I'm sure you're not masquerading as anyone, it was a dig at Breff who has a habit of putting words in my mouth.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1761 - 29/03/2024 12:25:30    2534447

Link

Replying To Galway9801:  "Yeah I've enjoyed it too, and to be clear I'm sure you're not masquerading as anyone, it was a dig at Breff who has a habit of putting words in my mouth."
Point out where I've done that please

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12133 - 29/03/2024 13:15:53    2534454

Link

Replying To Breffni40:  "Point out where I've done that please"
At the top of the previous page (145),, and halfway down page 138 would be good examples.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1761 - 29/03/2024 14:25:28    2534478

Link

Replying To cavanman47:  "I think that's a good post.

I would agree that any full time job should mean ability to own a home.
And I believe I have given examples of exactly how that is in fact the case at present.

But those with more money will always want to live in nicer houses in more convenient locations. That's just human nature.

And those with less money will always have to identify what falls within their means and take 1 of 2 options:
1. Accept that the property you can afford may mean a longer commute to work and won't be as big or as fancy as some others.
2. Reassess your employment situation and make moves to change it, via-skilling, education, job searching, or whatever it may take to improve your situation.


House prices are high here, and banks are slow to lend. That is one side of th argument (and I believe landlords, certainly small landlords, are barely part of problem if not part of the solution)


But the amount of people facing options 1 or 2 above and flat out refusing to do anything but complain about their situation in the hope a magic wand will be waved are a massive part of the problem too."
I do agree that people should start by looking at themselves, but at the moment the odds against them are almost insurmountable.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2759 - 29/03/2024 23:50:39    2534541

Link

Replying To cavanman47:  "I think that's a good post.

I would agree that any full time job should mean ability to own a home.
And I believe I have given examples of exactly how that is in fact the case at present.

But those with more money will always want to live in nicer houses in more convenient locations. That's just human nature.

And those with less money will always have to identify what falls within their means and take 1 of 2 options:
1. Accept that the property you can afford may mean a longer commute to work and won't be as big or as fancy as some others.
2. Reassess your employment situation and make moves to change it, via-skilling, education, job searching, or whatever it may take to improve your situation.


House prices are high here, and banks are slow to lend. That is one side of th argument (and I believe landlords, certainly small landlords, are barely part of problem if not part of the solution)


But the amount of people facing options 1 or 2 above and flat out refusing to do anything but complain about their situation in the hope a magic wand will be waved are a massive part of the problem too."
I should note as well actually, these people have a right to feel a little sorry for themselves.

They're looking at what their parents could have with one factory wage and an inter cert education.

We have working professional couples homeless now. Madness.

It isn't fair at all. It's either by design, which honestly I think is the case with fine Gael, or at best has been facilitated through decades of negligent politics.

I don't particularly like Fianna fail either, but they're generally great for building investment.

From the 30s through to the 80s we built magnificent communities.

Council employed and trained huge numbers of tradespeople.

In the 90s we all ran away with ourselves and assumed the private sector would look after it. That's what lead to this absolute disaster.

I stand by what I said earlier. It is ruining our society.

I'm exceptionally proud of this country, but the state this has been allowed to get to is utterly shameful.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2759 - 29/03/2024 23:58:34    2534543

Link

Replying To Doylerwex:  "Just because Europe don't do it doesn't mean we should.

There are genetic markers of historical oppression that influence our desire to own something. This isn't me being emotive either, this is fact. It has nothing to do with being better than others. I small asset is not much for a lifetime of work.

Yes Europe are more into renting but you have security of tenancy, reasonable rents, you can have pets etc.

True not everyone can afford it, but a vast majority want to.

Do we all have to have standard construction methods? We can build five times as many modular homes without sourcing any new tradesmen.

Relaxing mortgage rules will make it worse. That will only increase competition for limited stock and ultimately increase prices.

The crisis is the banks fault. The taxpayer still holds considerable stake in most banks. We can further limit buy to let mortgages and increase/enforce vacant property penalties.

Then relax planning laws and rezone more land to increase supply of modular homes that can be delivered quickly.

Finance this via state housing agency or perhaps partnership with credit unions. The price is set at an affordable level and first come first serve.

That will solve the problem indefinitely.

Any job should provide enough to have a place to live, otherwise what is the point?

People need to live, not survive."
Ok you were referring to Leggo!

On a more serious note, the use of modular homes for whatever reason has not been something that has become popular in Ireland and that could be for a number of different reasons, one I would suggest is a mindset that they would be inferior to traditional homes. I also believe for some time it was difficult to get finance for them and I wonder what the difference in insurance would look like. Back to the European experience - they have been used in Europe since the 50's 60's but as I said we tend to follow the trends of our neighbors rather than the continent - ironic is it not that we try to claim we are so different to the people of the UK but we mimic them in so many ways.
I believe most of the discussions I have seen on the use of modular homes would say that they are not the answer to the current problem. Yes there may be a time to delivery difference but to think that all it takes is for a lorry to show up (and that's if the ability to get them to where people want their homes exist as they are not heading off down the backroads of Wexford) is totally wrong, you also have the fact that the entire industry is at the moment flat out building and if you think they are going to down tools on what they are doing and switch then you are wrong.
As you pointed out Europe is much better setup for rental than we are but it also applies to modular homes, how long before you would see the complains on the standards in Ireland than just would not exist in Europe?
Loser planning laws - is it the laws or the people? The laws were put in place for a reason - and a nod to Europe again. You are a big advocate for social housing but where? social housing means one thing to a lot of people and therefore nobody wants it near them but also planning has to take account of the infrastructure that surrounds it - our public transport infrastructure is brutal. If we could get the places to put houses we have no infrastructure to ensure that they are served correctly. We build motorways when we should have been building commuter rail lines that would connect the country together. Blame the politicians or blame the people who elect them? we all want immediate results and never want to hear that the answer is more complex and if we don't get immediate results then we vote them out of office. Get immediate results and all it does is create the next crises.
A place to live in doesn't mean you have to own it, a lot of people live comfortably all their lives all over the world in rented accommodation.
The US caused the 2008 GFC and it had its roots in the push to ensure everyone could own their own home - that was considered the only option as there was no hope they could regulate the rental market. Home ownership and a properly regulated rental market go hand in hand - public and private finance have to go hand in hand (but not public ownership of banks which never works). If the system was to changed - either there are too many or there is the perception there are too many who would just take advantage of it, which means nothing changes.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1806 - 30/03/2024 05:50:58    2534552

Link

Replying To zinny:  "Ok you were referring to Leggo!

On a more serious note, the use of modular homes for whatever reason has not been something that has become popular in Ireland and that could be for a number of different reasons, one I would suggest is a mindset that they would be inferior to traditional homes. I also believe for some time it was difficult to get finance for them and I wonder what the difference in insurance would look like. Back to the European experience - they have been used in Europe since the 50's 60's but as I said we tend to follow the trends of our neighbors rather than the continent - ironic is it not that we try to claim we are so different to the people of the UK but we mimic them in so many ways.
I believe most of the discussions I have seen on the use of modular homes would say that they are not the answer to the current problem. Yes there may be a time to delivery difference but to think that all it takes is for a lorry to show up (and that's if the ability to get them to where people want their homes exist as they are not heading off down the backroads of Wexford) is totally wrong, you also have the fact that the entire industry is at the moment flat out building and if you think they are going to down tools on what they are doing and switch then you are wrong.
As you pointed out Europe is much better setup for rental than we are but it also applies to modular homes, how long before you would see the complains on the standards in Ireland than just would not exist in Europe?
Loser planning laws - is it the laws or the people? The laws were put in place for a reason - and a nod to Europe again. You are a big advocate for social housing but where? social housing means one thing to a lot of people and therefore nobody wants it near them but also planning has to take account of the infrastructure that surrounds it - our public transport infrastructure is brutal. If we could get the places to put houses we have no infrastructure to ensure that they are served correctly. We build motorways when we should have been building commuter rail lines that would connect the country together. Blame the politicians or blame the people who elect them? we all want immediate results and never want to hear that the answer is more complex and if we don't get immediate results then we vote them out of office. Get immediate results and all it does is create the next crises.
A place to live in doesn't mean you have to own it, a lot of people live comfortably all their lives all over the world in rented accommodation.
The US caused the 2008 GFC and it had its roots in the push to ensure everyone could own their own home - that was considered the only option as there was no hope they could regulate the rental market. Home ownership and a properly regulated rental market go hand in hand - public and private finance have to go hand in hand (but not public ownership of banks which never works). If the system was to changed - either there are too many or there is the perception there are too many who would just take advantage of it, which means nothing changes."
You've obviously gone to a bit of trouble to answer that post without really saying much.

What I'm reading from it is you think things are grand the way they are. Surely not?

Modular homes would have shorter lifespan but once the panels are clad externally in concrete there's no insurance impact.

Banks certainly don't like them, hence why I'd suggested public private partnership with credit unions, after which the banks would have no choice but to engage.

Planning part is fair, but two things on that.

1. If you want a new home you can't be that fussy within reason.

2. The need to catch-up the shortfall of 400k homes trumps anyone's right to view a river. The trivial stuff that has to be reviewed at planning phase is laughable.

In terms of getting people to actually build them I can see the expertise being imported from Germany, Sweden, Switzerland etc. Irish wouldn't be willing to do it because they couldn't charge as much.

I do think they are the obvious solution but the political will isn't there at the minute.

We are similar to the British in loads of ways. There's huge cultural links, family ties etc. Although we're still unique.

When it comes to property ownership as a right, or almost a right, ourselves the Brits and the yanks are right. The continent are wrong. As I said before, to leave nothing behind for your children after a lifetime of work is an insult while the people you rent from leave a license to print money to theirs. That Is basically a monarch. Everyone at the mercy of those who's ancestors were the most gifted thieves.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2759 - 30/03/2024 12:57:13    2534595

Link

This hunt by the FAI for a manager is becoming an embarrassment. Not to me, mind you. We in Wicklow have enough of our own to contend with. Poyet turned a 5 yr term down according to reports. He was supposed to be interested last year. I suppose it's not possible to embarrass the FAI. They have certainly had their problems the past few yrs - most of which were self inflicted.

Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 1022 - 30/03/2024 17:24:09    2534645

Link

Replying To Galway9801:  "At the top of the previous page (145),, and halfway down page 138 would be good examples."
I addressed this very civilly but its inexplicably not been posted

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12133 - 30/03/2024 18:28:55    2534659

Link

Replying To Breffni40:  "I addressed this very civilly but its inexplicably not been posted"
I believe you.
I'll never quite figure out hoganstands post vetting process.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1761 - 30/03/2024 19:25:49    2534684

Link

Replying To Freethinker:  "This hunt by the FAI for a manager is becoming an embarrassment. Not to me, mind you. We in Wicklow have enough of our own to contend with. Poyet turned a 5 yr term down according to reports. He was supposed to be interested last year. I suppose it's not possible to embarrass the FAI. They have certainly had their problems the past few yrs - most of which were self inflicted."
Even in the bad old days getting a manager wasn't as long as this.

bruffgael (Limerick) - Posts: 156 - 30/03/2024 19:50:09    2534690

Link

Replying To bruffgael:  "Even in the bad old days getting a manager wasn't as long as this."
What's the rush? No competitive game for 5 months.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7391 - 30/03/2024 21:10:53    2534703

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "What's the rush? No competitive game for 5 months."
I suppose none really, as long as John O'Shea is prepared to step in from time to time. Having said that, it must be heading for 6 months since Mr Kenny ran out of road, so it could hardly be called a "rushed" process.

Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 1022 - 30/03/2024 21:37:27    2534712

Link

Replying To Breffni40:  "I addressed this very civilly but its inexplicably not been posted"
Not much to address.
He's right.


Any joy with the daft search?
They don't allow external links on here.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5028 - 30/03/2024 23:46:38    2534731

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "What's the rush? No competitive game for 5 months."
A manager needs time to prepare and get to know players and have a couple of friendly games before the competitive games begin.

bruffgael (Limerick) - Posts: 156 - 31/03/2024 21:31:04    2534881

Link

Replying To Freethinker:  "I suppose none really, as long as John O'Shea is prepared to step in from time to time. Having said that, it must be heading for 6 months since Mr Kenny ran out of road, so it could hardly be called a "rushed" process."
The options for a new manager suffered a setback when Gus Poyet withdrew from the race. The new man has the problem, that Ireland are not a good team. We lack quality players, and the Swiss game showed how limited a team Ireland are.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1760 - 02/04/2024 12:13:21    2535159

Link

Replying To thelongridge:  "The options for a new manager suffered a setback when Gus Poyet withdrew from the race. The new man has the problem, that Ireland are not a good team. We lack quality players, and the Swiss game showed how limited a team Ireland are."
Not good but improving on performances of the past few years. I didn't think Swiss result was that bad. Lost by a free kick to a team that will play in the Euros, ranked 43 places above us in world rankings. I think we've no superstars for sure, not an attractive proposition for most managers, but could be the makings for an up and coming manager who can make the team and it's potential better than the sum of its parts.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7391 - 02/04/2024 12:47:15    2535166

Link