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Replying To Doylerwex:  "I'd suspect they're reported as what's drawn down.

I.e. you lend 275k now but don't get it back until 2059 when the repayments are done, so this would show as an accounting loss for 7 years until they start paying down the principal.

Mortgages are long-term investments for banks. There's no way they're reporting 108m in mortgage arrears."
Fair enough Doylerwex.
I'm far from a financial guru!

oceanofnoise (Meath) - Posts: 44 - 27/03/2024 14:56:05    2534113

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Replying To Breffni40:  "Yeah ive been convinced. Nothing can be done. People just need to work harder and harder and harder while the prices go up up up and their income remains the same.

People will die homeless on the streets but we'll still have an economy, which of course is the only reason for living!

The only reason families are sleeping in cars is because their kind landlord/bank/employer only wanted market value for their investment/assets. This is normal!

Perhaps we could add some more hours to the day, so people can get up even earlier in the morning to work hard, really hard. Unlike others!"
Sorry everyone was away for a few days.

I can't speak for anyone else on this forum but that sarcastic post above is a complete, and deliberate, misrepresentation of what I've been saying, not a first for you Breff.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1761 - 27/03/2024 17:21:27    2534142

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Replying To oceanofnoise:  "The banks are not the problem. The banks are not determining the ludicrous asking prices for property.
Banks have always had one thing at their core: using money to make more money. Money is their mantra, not customer satisfaction or loyalty.

That hasn't changed in thousands of years, so why would it change now?"
Okay well that seems to be a total contradiction.

You justify banks unreasonable policies by saying that their purpose is to make money. It is their mantra etc. Not customer satisfaction or loyalty.

Yet landlords could say the exact same thing about rental properties. Their purpose is to make money, not customer satisfaction or loyalty.

Yet you apply two completely different outlooks on both entities.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1761 - 27/03/2024 17:25:51    2534145

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Replying To Galway9801:  "Okay well that seems to be a total contradiction.

You justify banks unreasonable policies by saying that their purpose is to make money. It is their mantra etc. Not customer satisfaction or loyalty.

Yet landlords could say the exact same thing about rental properties. Their purpose is to make money, not customer satisfaction or loyalty.

Yet you apply two completely different outlooks on both entities."
Making money and providing affordable housing to buy or rent are semi contradictory objectives. Why build houses that sell for 300000 when for very little more cost per unit you can build houses that sell for 500000? That's why we need a government who are prepared to govern.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12253 - 27/03/2024 18:45:54    2534161

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Replying To Galway9801:  "Okay well that seems to be a total contradiction.

You justify banks unreasonable policies by saying that their purpose is to make money. It is their mantra etc. Not customer satisfaction or loyalty.

Yet landlords could say the exact same thing about rental properties. Their purpose is to make money, not customer satisfaction or loyalty.

Yet you apply two completely different outlooks on both entities."
Banks don't sell houses. (I've lost count of the number of times I've made this point over the past few days)

Landlords do have the option to sell the houses they rent for exorbitant prices. They don't, because the so-called market is heavily weighted in their favour at present and they're making too much money. I never once stated they should develop a commitment to customer satisfaction, or that the majority of landlords are playing the game for anything other than financial gain.

Banks are not landlords, landlords are not banks. Einhorn is not Finkle.
So I don't understand how or why would one equate their respective roles in the so-called property market. They certainly have a symbiotic relationship, but they perform different functions.

My core argument all along is simply that the property price/salary ratio is all wrong, driven in large part by a lack of housing for sale. The figures released yesterday back this up: we now have the lowest number of properties for sale in this country for almost 20 years. The number of people who are classified as homeless continues to rise.

Like it or like it not, landlordism is surely contributing to this shortage by virtue of the fact that (A) these houses are being kept in the rental market & (B) the amount of rent being charged is trapping folk into a never ending cycle where they cannot afford to raise a deposit.

So, I don't really understand how a relaxation of bank lending practises is going to make any additional houses appear on the market, or make things in any way more affordable in any sort of timeframe, be that short, medium or long. I would have thought that if lending policies were relaxed, it would encourage MORE landlords to enter the market.

Would you see any parallels between today's situation and that of the tenant farmer in 19th century Ireland? I would.

oceanofnoise (Meath) - Posts: 44 - 27/03/2024 19:50:18    2534169

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Replying To Galway9801:  "Okay well that seems to be a total contradiction.

You justify banks unreasonable policies by saying that their purpose is to make money. It is their mantra etc. Not customer satisfaction or loyalty.

Yet landlords could say the exact same thing about rental properties. Their purpose is to make money, not customer satisfaction or loyalty.

Yet you apply two completely different outlooks on both entities."
They are different though.

Banking is unfortunately a necessary evil.

Landlords are not. Not all, but many are white collar criminals rubbing their hands while everyone becomes more and more hopelessly miserable.

That sarcastic post is over the top but honestly the lack of empathy you've shown has shocked me.

I don't know you. You might be a lovely fella, but I cannot wrap my head around how anyone could try to justify the state of our housing market.

There's no rationale. It's the darkest period in modern history and we're destroying our society.

By and large we're a really charitable people, but we're turning into greedy monsters.

What our own elites are doing to people now is a thousand times worse than 800 years of oppression we suffered.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2759 - 27/03/2024 19:51:58    2534171

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "They are different though.

Banking is unfortunately a necessary evil.

Landlords are not. Not all, but many are white collar criminals rubbing their hands while everyone becomes more and more hopelessly miserable.

That sarcastic post is over the top but honestly the lack of empathy you've shown has shocked me.

I don't know you. You might be a lovely fella, but I cannot wrap my head around how anyone could try to justify the state of our housing market.

There's no rationale. It's the darkest period in modern history and we're destroying our society.

By and large we're a really charitable people, but we're turning into greedy monsters.

What our own elites are doing to people now is a thousand times worse than 800 years of oppression we suffered."
We are going down the same path that the UK went down during the 80s in the reign of Margaret Thatcher. And we aren't jogging down it, we are running.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12253 - 28/03/2024 08:13:57    2534227

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "They are different though.

Banking is unfortunately a necessary evil.

Landlords are not. Not all, but many are white collar criminals rubbing their hands while everyone becomes more and more hopelessly miserable.

That sarcastic post is over the top but honestly the lack of empathy you've shown has shocked me.

I don't know you. You might be a lovely fella, but I cannot wrap my head around how anyone could try to justify the state of our housing market.

There's no rationale. It's the darkest period in modern history and we're destroying our society.

By and large we're a really charitable people, but we're turning into greedy monsters.

What our own elites are doing to people now is a thousand times worse than 800 years of oppression we suffered."
I'm sorry but that last line of yours is absolutely ludicrous!

Seriously. Just think about it.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5028 - 28/03/2024 09:59:37    2534245

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Replying To Galway9801:  "Sorry everyone was away for a few days.

I can't speak for anyone else on this forum but that sarcastic post above is a complete, and deliberate, misrepresentation of what I've been saying, not a first for you Breff."
That's route 1.

Take your example of someone who applied themselves, rolled up their sleeves, and now finds themselves doing well for themselves. And ridicule and make all sorts of excuses as to how you simply must have been given your deposit from your parents, won the lotto, met lady luck in a champagne bar in Saint Tropez. .etc.
There's simply no way that you can be telling us the truth. You MUST have been given an advantage not available to everyone else!


He's also tried route 2.

I presented a snapshot in time the other day of what was available for a working person who was single, earning minimum wage (above the social housing threshold), working in or around Dublin and needing to live close by, etc.
And the attitude was: why would you want to live in "relative squalor"?.
Why can't I stay in the job I currently work, where I feel I'm not paid enough, and still get that 3 bed townhouse in Monkstown overlooking the coast within 30 seconds of the DART?


For those worrying about our country changing too much, fear not! Irish begrudgery is alive and well!

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5028 - 28/03/2024 10:14:35    2534249

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Replying To cavanman47:  "That's route 1.

Take your example of someone who applied themselves, rolled up their sleeves, and now finds themselves doing well for themselves. And ridicule and make all sorts of excuses as to how you simply must have been given your deposit from your parents, won the lotto, met lady luck in a champagne bar in Saint Tropez. .etc.
There's simply no way that you can be telling us the truth. You MUST have been given an advantage not available to everyone else!


He's also tried route 2.

I presented a snapshot in time the other day of what was available for a working person who was single, earning minimum wage (above the social housing threshold), working in or around Dublin and needing to live close by, etc.
And the attitude was: why would you want to live in "relative squalor"?.
Why can't I stay in the job I currently work, where I feel I'm not paid enough, and still get that 3 bed townhouse in Monkstown overlooking the coast within 30 seconds of the DART?


For those worrying about our country changing too much, fear not! Irish begrudgery is alive and well!"
What are you on about Monkstown?. Try to see the big picture and stop trying focus on yourself or individuals. Not one thing I've said is directly related to my own circumstances. It's a noted trend that people who crow about being self-made are far from it. I could say I donate houses to the poor and insist you believe me. Anecdotal evidence seems irrelevant until its your own anecdotes about working harder than others and your idiot, wasteful friends.

I actually had 3 jobs pre-covid. 2 are gone now, but you've both jumped to wild conclusions about me to suit yourselves so spare me the righteousness.

Lads look up the snapshot on daft referenced to see the ****holes cavanman47 thinks minimum wage workers deserve to live in on the maximum mortgage available to them

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12133 - 28/03/2024 14:42:51    2534330

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Replying To cavanman47:  "That's route 1.

Take your example of someone who applied themselves, rolled up their sleeves, and now finds themselves doing well for themselves. And ridicule and make all sorts of excuses as to how you simply must have been given your deposit from your parents, won the lotto, met lady luck in a champagne bar in Saint Tropez. .etc.
There's simply no way that you can be telling us the truth. You MUST have been given an advantage not available to everyone else!


He's also tried route 2.

I presented a snapshot in time the other day of what was available for a working person who was single, earning minimum wage (above the social housing threshold), working in or around Dublin and needing to live close by, etc.
And the attitude was: why would you want to live in "relative squalor"?.
Why can't I stay in the job I currently work, where I feel I'm not paid enough, and still get that 3 bed townhouse in Monkstown overlooking the coast within 30 seconds of the DART?


For those worrying about our country changing too much, fear not! Irish begrudgery is alive and well!"
Also I think begrudery is a very appropriate sense during a housing crisis that so many are benefitting from and will continue to do so

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12133 - 28/03/2024 14:44:45    2534331

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The cost of building a house is ridiculous at the minute which is causing an even bigger crisis. Houses going on the market that people wouldn't have looked twice at 5 or 6 years ago are being snapped up for 30-40 per cent more than they were 5 or 6 years ago. People afraid to miss out so they are buying average houses because they can't afford to build. It's a vicious circle.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7912 - 28/03/2024 16:17:40    2534347

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I see Roy Keane is now favourite for the Irish job. To be honest I don't think it matter who gets it, Ireland aren't good enough and won't be for a while. Hope I'm wrong obviously

DuhallowRed (Cork) - Posts: 269 - 28/03/2024 19:31:31    2534371

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "They are different though.

Banking is unfortunately a necessary evil.

Landlords are not. Not all, but many are white collar criminals rubbing their hands while everyone becomes more and more hopelessly miserable.

That sarcastic post is over the top but honestly the lack of empathy you've shown has shocked me.

I don't know you. You might be a lovely fella, but I cannot wrap my head around how anyone could try to justify the state of our housing market.

There's no rationale. It's the darkest period in modern history and we're destroying our society.

By and large we're a really charitable people, but we're turning into greedy monsters.

What our own elites are doing to people now is a thousand times worse than 800 years of oppression we suffered."
Point out one time I tried to justify the housing market please. I'm well aware it's very very difficult.
What I don't buy is the assumption that landlords are exclusively to blame, or even if they're contributing in any major way at all to the crisis. (remember, there were landlords in the 90s when there was no crisis).
I'm also sceptical as to whether ordinary workers are as helpless in this situation as is being portrayed. I'm sorry but lots of people are just way too careless with their money, and lots don't even seem inclined to try and even earn money to begin with. Saying that doesn't make me heartless.

Banks maybe a necessary evil, but their overly stringent lending rules are not a necessary evil. I can't understand why you avd ocean seem so determined to back them up here.

Seeing as how the government isn't building homes, and the banks aren't lending money, if anything it's the landlords who are more of a "necessary evil"

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1761 - 28/03/2024 19:56:10    2534374

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Replying To oceanofnoise:  "Fair enough Doylerwex.
I'm far from a financial guru!"
Neither would Doyler be. The number you are looking at is the increase in impairments which is what the bank puts aside for expected losses on its loan portfolio - basically the amount that they expect they wont recover on what they have lent which includes the expected interest to be earned on the loan. Banks make money on the spread between what they pay for customers for the money they deposit with them and what they lend it to others. They account for that in the net inters income number. What they then do is calculate a separate number of the loans which they expect they will make losses on. In 2023 the net interest income number increased by €1.2B and expected loan losses by 108M or 397M across all customer business. Don't worry banks are doing well. Basically interest rates have gone up and these have been passed onto borrowers but the customers with deposits have not received the same increase in interest rates.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1806 - 28/03/2024 20:04:08    2534375

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Replying To oceanofnoise:  "Banks don't sell houses. (I've lost count of the number of times I've made this point over the past few days)

Landlords do have the option to sell the houses they rent for exorbitant prices. They don't, because the so-called market is heavily weighted in their favour at present and they're making too much money. I never once stated they should develop a commitment to customer satisfaction, or that the majority of landlords are playing the game for anything other than financial gain.

Banks are not landlords, landlords are not banks. Einhorn is not Finkle.
So I don't understand how or why would one equate their respective roles in the so-called property market. They certainly have a symbiotic relationship, but they perform different functions.

My core argument all along is simply that the property price/salary ratio is all wrong, driven in large part by a lack of housing for sale. The figures released yesterday back this up: we now have the lowest number of properties for sale in this country for almost 20 years. The number of people who are classified as homeless continues to rise.

Like it or like it not, landlordism is surely contributing to this shortage by virtue of the fact that (A) these houses are being kept in the rental market & (B) the amount of rent being charged is trapping folk into a never ending cycle where they cannot afford to raise a deposit.

So, I don't really understand how a relaxation of bank lending practises is going to make any additional houses appear on the market, or make things in any way more affordable in any sort of timeframe, be that short, medium or long. I would have thought that if lending policies were relaxed, it would encourage MORE landlords to enter the market.

Would you see any parallels between today's situation and that of the tenant farmer in 19th century Ireland? I would."
I never said banks sell houses and I never equated the respective roles of banks and landlords in the property market.
More putting words in my mouth (are you Breff in disguise?)

Anyways

Yeah for sure the amount of rent being charged is trapping some people, but putting pressure on the market drives rent up. Failure to build and refusal to lend is making money for landlords but that doesn't mean landlords should be held responsible for the problem. (although I'm there are landlords in government circles)

A relaxation of lending rules would absolutely help first time buyers get onto the property ladder. Your suggestion that it would help landlords more makes it look like you're unaware that there are completely different mortgage rates and lending criteria for owner occupied properties and buy to let properties.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1761 - 28/03/2024 21:21:27    2534384

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Replying To Breffni40:  "What are you on about Monkstown?. Try to see the big picture and stop trying focus on yourself or individuals. Not one thing I've said is directly related to my own circumstances. It's a noted trend that people who crow about being self-made are far from it. I could say I donate houses to the poor and insist you believe me. Anecdotal evidence seems irrelevant until its your own anecdotes about working harder than others and your idiot, wasteful friends.

I actually had 3 jobs pre-covid. 2 are gone now, but you've both jumped to wild conclusions about me to suit yourselves so spare me the righteousness.

Lads look up the snapshot on daft referenced to see the ****holes cavanman47 thinks minimum wage workers deserve to live in on the maximum mortgage available to them"
Ocean seems totally unwilling to entertain any criticism of the banks.
So I'll ask you. Do you think that the maximum mortgage available to them is fair?

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1761 - 28/03/2024 21:25:26    2534386

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Replying To zinny:  "Neither would Doyler be. The number you are looking at is the increase in impairments which is what the bank puts aside for expected losses on its loan portfolio - basically the amount that they expect they wont recover on what they have lent which includes the expected interest to be earned on the loan. Banks make money on the spread between what they pay for customers for the money they deposit with them and what they lend it to others. They account for that in the net inters income number. What they then do is calculate a separate number of the loans which they expect they will make losses on. In 2023 the net interest income number increased by €1.2B and expected loan losses by 108M or 397M across all customer business. Don't worry banks are doing well. Basically interest rates have gone up and these have been passed onto borrowers but the customers with deposits have not received the same increase in interest rates."
Thank you for taking the time to give that detailed explanation, much appreciated.

oceanofnoise (Meath) - Posts: 44 - 28/03/2024 23:13:32    2534402

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "They are different though.

Banking is unfortunately a necessary evil.

Landlords are not. Not all, but many are white collar criminals rubbing their hands while everyone becomes more and more hopelessly miserable.

That sarcastic post is over the top but honestly the lack of empathy you've shown has shocked me.

I don't know you. You might be a lovely fella, but I cannot wrap my head around how anyone could try to justify the state of our housing market.

There's no rationale. It's the darkest period in modern history and we're destroying our society.

By and large we're a really charitable people, but we're turning into greedy monsters.

What our own elites are doing to people now is a thousand times worse than 800 years of oppression we suffered."
I would say the conversation has resorted to hyperbole but I am worried you actually believe rubbish.

Nobody has put forward a formula on how to solve the problem. Have you met a builder out of work? how would you suddenly create new houses - ask Leggo to get involved?

There is nothing wrong with landlords and they are necessary as not everyone can afford or want to take on a mortgage. So what you are asking for is for the state to discriminate against them by saying that the property they are in they need to leave because the landlord needs to sell it to someone who wants to own it and live in it. Ireland took its addiction to owning the house from the UK, in Europe the concept of renting is far common but then again Europeans do not have the same need to show that by owning property they are somehow better than others.

Banks are part of the problem and if you think that they are not taking advantage of the situation they you are pretty naive.
I don't believe anyone hasn't got empathy for people stuck in the current crises however believing in simple solutions is not helping.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1806 - 29/03/2024 06:35:43    2534406

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Replying To Breffni40:  "What are you on about Monkstown?. Try to see the big picture and stop trying focus on yourself or individuals. Not one thing I've said is directly related to my own circumstances. It's a noted trend that people who crow about being self-made are far from it. I could say I donate houses to the poor and insist you believe me. Anecdotal evidence seems irrelevant until its your own anecdotes about working harder than others and your idiot, wasteful friends.

I actually had 3 jobs pre-covid. 2 are gone now, but you've both jumped to wild conclusions about me to suit yourselves so spare me the righteousness.

Lads look up the snapshot on daft referenced to see the ****holes cavanman47 thinks minimum wage workers deserve to live in on the maximum mortgage available to them"
I posted links to 4 properties last night, all perfectly ready to move in, not ****holes by any means.

(Guessing post wasn't allowed because of the links, but look for yourself, properly this time, they're in Navan, Kilmessan and Athy)


If someone (not you specifically) is in a position to call a turn-key property within commuting distance of Dublin city centre a "****hole" or "relative squalor", then their plight might not be quite as bad as is being portrayed on here.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5028 - 29/03/2024 08:47:08    2534414

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