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Replying To oceanofnoise:  "The couple you mention with the 100K deposit; these people are yet another example of the dysfunction in the property market. But not for the reason you believe.

Can you not see that if the banks are not giving a couple like this a mortgage, then maybe it's actually the supply/demand side of the property market that isn't working and not the bank's policies?"
Sorry, but if you read the lending rules the banks are obliged to follow, they're pretty straightforward.

For a couple who have 100k saved, to not be offered a mortgage, there's going to be a simple reason:

1. The house is costing over a million (assuming they're both first time buyers). Half a mil if not their first house.

2. One or both of them cannot show consistent earnings over the last 24 months (unlikely in this case if they've saved 100k)

3. One or both cannot show tax compliance.

4. One or both has a large outstanding debt

5 Their circumstances have changed since they first applied and the banks want up-to-date information

My guess in this case is there's a gap in employment somewhere over the past 2 years. But without knowing the full story it's hard to say. That situation is certainly an anamoly and not representative of the wider situation.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5028 - 25/03/2024 09:53:41    2533443

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Replying To oceanofnoise:  "I agree wholeheartedly with everything you mention here. But it should be evident that due to the ratio of property price/income, working and saving hard is often not going to get a person a property that meets their needs."
Needs or wants?

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5028 - 25/03/2024 09:56:08    2533444

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No offence lads but there is no need to give your personal circumstances. I worked hard and paid my way stuff is almost never in good faith. There's always a generous donation from relatives or an uncle is auctioneer or whatever. We're all anonymous so it can't be proven so don't bother

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12133 - 25/03/2024 10:02:40    2533445

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Needs or wants?"
Needs

oceanofnoise (Meath) - Posts: 44 - 25/03/2024 10:19:40    2533454

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Replying To oceanofnoise:  "Needs"
OK.

Let's cut through the anecdotal stories then and examine what is and isn't affordable to the average worker in this country vs what their needs might be.

The median wage in Ireland is around 45000 euro per annum. Some earn less of course.
In the likes of Meath, Kildare, Wicklow (the commutable-to-Dublin counties) anyone earning under 40k is entitled to be placed on the housing register.

So instead of 45k, let's take the example of someone earning €40,001 per annum. (Worst case scenario)
They are single, so this is their total income.
They have never owned a house in the past.
They are working in full time employment.

In this example, this person would be eligible to borrow 3.5 x 40k. . . So €140k. This plus a 10% deposit allows them to purchase a property for just over 150k, but let's say 150k for ease of argument. (Worse case scenario)

A quick Daft.ie search as of today shows available turn-key properties in Athy, Navan, Kilmessan, Tinahely and others for 150k or less.

Now, it's not a spanking new 3 bed townhouse in Ranelagh next door to the latest gastro-cafe or a penthouse overlooking grand canal Square, but these are properties within commutable distances of Dublin that would satisfy the NEEDS of the person described above.

Would I WANT to swap where I'm living for any of these alternatives? No, I wouldn't. But if I NEEDED to, all would be viable options for me.

If I WANT somewhere nicer or more conveniently located, then I need to look at my employment situation and seek to improve it. Maybe I should up-skill. Maybe I should take advantage of the national employment shortage and change job or use it as leverage in seeking a pay rise. There are numerous channels I could go down, but the principle is the same. . .I need to ask myself "where do I need to get to in 12 or 24 months in order to better position myself to afford the house I want?"

My experience is that some people ask themselves that question, take appropriate action, and get to where they want to.
Others don't look inwards, don't take action, and are left complaining in 24 months time that it's the system that's failing them and that their mate or neighbour just got lucky.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5028 - 25/03/2024 12:09:50    2533514

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Replying To cavanman47:  "OK.

Let's cut through the anecdotal stories then and examine what is and isn't affordable to the average worker in this country vs what their needs might be.

The median wage in Ireland is around 45000 euro per annum. Some earn less of course.
In the likes of Meath, Kildare, Wicklow (the commutable-to-Dublin counties) anyone earning under 40k is entitled to be placed on the housing register.

So instead of 45k, let's take the example of someone earning €40,001 per annum. (Worst case scenario)
They are single, so this is their total income.
They have never owned a house in the past.
They are working in full time employment.

In this example, this person would be eligible to borrow 3.5 x 40k. . . So €140k. This plus a 10% deposit allows them to purchase a property for just over 150k, but let's say 150k for ease of argument. (Worse case scenario)

A quick Daft.ie search as of today shows available turn-key properties in Athy, Navan, Kilmessan, Tinahely and others for 150k or less.

Now, it's not a spanking new 3 bed townhouse in Ranelagh next door to the latest gastro-cafe or a penthouse overlooking grand canal Square, but these are properties within commutable distances of Dublin that would satisfy the NEEDS of the person described above.

Would I WANT to swap where I'm living for any of these alternatives? No, I wouldn't. But if I NEEDED to, all would be viable options for me.

If I WANT somewhere nicer or more conveniently located, then I need to look at my employment situation and seek to improve it. Maybe I should up-skill. Maybe I should take advantage of the national employment shortage and change job or use it as leverage in seeking a pay rise. There are numerous channels I could go down, but the principle is the same. . .I need to ask myself "where do I need to get to in 12 or 24 months in order to better position myself to afford the house I want?"

My experience is that some people ask themselves that question, take appropriate action, and get to where they want to.
Others don't look inwards, don't take action, and are left complaining in 24 months time that it's the system that's failing them and that their mate or neighbour just got lucky."
Had a look at the areas you mentioned on daft. It's mostly sites and 5 apt/houses. If you think these are worth 150k, and they'll probably sell for more, then we are never gonna have a meeting of minds here.

Live in relative squalor or dry your eyes isn't as rational an analysis as you seem to think it is

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12133 - 25/03/2024 13:36:18    2533555

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Replying To cavanman47:  "OK.

Let's cut through the anecdotal stories then and examine what is and isn't affordable to the average worker in this country vs what their needs might be.

The median wage in Ireland is around 45000 euro per annum. Some earn less of course.
In the likes of Meath, Kildare, Wicklow (the commutable-to-Dublin counties) anyone earning under 40k is entitled to be placed on the housing register.

So instead of 45k, let's take the example of someone earning €40,001 per annum. (Worst case scenario)
They are single, so this is their total income.
They have never owned a house in the past.
They are working in full time employment.

In this example, this person would be eligible to borrow 3.5 x 40k. . . So €140k. This plus a 10% deposit allows them to purchase a property for just over 150k, but let's say 150k for ease of argument. (Worse case scenario)

A quick Daft.ie search as of today shows available turn-key properties in Athy, Navan, Kilmessan, Tinahely and others for 150k or less.

Now, it's not a spanking new 3 bed townhouse in Ranelagh next door to the latest gastro-cafe or a penthouse overlooking grand canal Square, but these are properties within commutable distances of Dublin that would satisfy the NEEDS of the person described above.

Would I WANT to swap where I'm living for any of these alternatives? No, I wouldn't. But if I NEEDED to, all would be viable options for me.

If I WANT somewhere nicer or more conveniently located, then I need to look at my employment situation and seek to improve it. Maybe I should up-skill. Maybe I should take advantage of the national employment shortage and change job or use it as leverage in seeking a pay rise. There are numerous channels I could go down, but the principle is the same. . .I need to ask myself "where do I need to get to in 12 or 24 months in order to better position myself to afford the house I want?"

My experience is that some people ask themselves that question, take appropriate action, and get to where they want to.
Others don't look inwards, don't take action, and are left complaining in 24 months time that it's the system that's failing them and that their mate or neighbour just got lucky."
Sure.
Anecdotal stories are Ok as a means of illustrating or embellishing a point, but I agree that we should try and deal in facts and figures whenever possible.

I agree with almost everything you say in your most recent post.
Where our opinions probably differ is in relation to how and why people choose where to live.

I genuinely believe that the majority know the difference between their needs and their wants. So, for example, if faced with living closer to a good school or a good gastropub, the school would win out most of the time. To assume people think otherwise is quite patronising in my opinion.

I agree that there are some people who cannot seem to see that a home will not just land in their lap, and that there must be sacrifice or compromise or whatever other words you want to use, if they are to become a homeowner. I agree that 9 times out of 10, the answer to most questions about our own personal circumstances should start with the statement: "What can I do to make a change?"

The point I have been trying to make all along is that the simple ratio of property price/salary in Ireland is completely and utterly out of sync. The main reason for this disparity surely is that we have not been building adequate, appropriate housing stock during this period?

The link below goes into good enough detail about this, but to directly quote and summarise the article:
"The average industrial worker needs more than seven times their salary to buy a house today, compared to four-and-a-half times their salary in 1973. That means the gap has grown by almost two-thirds in 50 years, before taxes, interest rates and inflation are taken into account."

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/twenty-fold-pay-increase-hasnt-been-enough-to-keep-up-with-housing-costs

This next article goes into a lot of detail about this topic too, but again to directly quote a couple of relevant points:
"The age at which a majority of Irish households owned their own home was just 26 at the start of the 1990s. By 2016, it has risen by a full decade to 35. Even more shocking, the CSO data show that, in 1991, the age at which two-thirds of Irish households were homeowners was just 28, versus 41 today - a 13 year difference!"

"Some 88% of the "living with mum and dad" cohort would prefer to be living independently, but the current cost of housing means they are unable to do so. For those working full-time, but living with their parents, in 84% of cases this reflects their financial situation, to a greater or lesser extent.
In other words, their full-time job does not pay them enough to afford to leave home."

https://www.housingeurope.eu/resource-1673/was-it-more-affordable-for-our-parents-to-buy-a-home-than-it-is-for-today-s-generation

I think we are seriously under-serving the young population of this country, and housing is just the canary in the coalmine.

oceanofnoise (Meath) - Posts: 44 - 25/03/2024 13:40:43    2533561

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Replying To Viking66:  "Nowhere near the 1200-1500 per month that private landlords are charging down here. Its a supply and demand issue. Very basic economics. We don't have enough housing, especially affordable housing."
Yeah I agree with that.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1761 - 25/03/2024 14:52:11    2533605

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Replying To oceanofnoise:  "The couple you mention with the 100K deposit; these people are yet another example of the dysfunction in the property market. But not for the reason you believe.

Can you not see that if the banks are not giving a couple like this a mortgage, then maybe it's actually the supply/demand side of the property market that isn't working and not the bank's policies?"
Ocean Im happy for the government to build homes to alleviate the supply /demand issue but I'm sorry if the bank is gonna turn you away after saving that much money they're being absolute d**ks.
Besides there was a house that they had in mind. It was on the market. So supply wasn't the problem here.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1761 - 25/03/2024 15:00:20    2533609

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Replying To Breffni40:  "Had a look at the areas you mentioned on daft. It's mostly sites and 5 apt/houses. If you think these are worth 150k, and they'll probably sell for more, then we are never gonna have a meeting of minds here.

Live in relative squalor or dry your eyes isn't as rational an analysis as you seem to think it is"
Filter 1-bed minimum and the sites won't show up.

The point of my post was that even for the worst case scenario (outside of those where the government intervenes and pays someone's way), there are options there.

Also, if you happen to find yourself in such a scenario, there are options to help move up the ladder, as it were (springboard funding of further education, funded skills courses, etc).

Sure, my analysis may not be a black-and-white catch-all one, but I'm backing up my original point: that it starts with the individual.

Have you any rational solutions?

I suggested 100% mortgages as a very quick improvement that requires nothing but adequate due diligence on the part of the banks to successfully control. (I have 2 lesser options I'll share which are light versions of this if you want).

The only other one you could look at is to officially declare a housing emergency and thus by-pass the standard planning and appeals process.
It's radical, authoritarian, undemocratic, and all the rest. . .but it seems to be the only answer to the "build more houses yesterday" cries.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5028 - 25/03/2024 15:01:07    2533610

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Filter 1-bed minimum and the sites won't show up.

The point of my post was that even for the worst case scenario (outside of those where the government intervenes and pays someone's way), there are options there.

Also, if you happen to find yourself in such a scenario, there are options to help move up the ladder, as it were (springboard funding of further education, funded skills courses, etc).

Sure, my analysis may not be a black-and-white catch-all one, but I'm backing up my original point: that it starts with the individual.

Have you any rational solutions?

I suggested 100% mortgages as a very quick improvement that requires nothing but adequate due diligence on the part of the banks to successfully control. (I have 2 lesser options I'll share which are light versions of this if you want).

The only other one you could look at is to officially declare a housing emergency and thus by-pass the standard planning and appeals process.
It's radical, authoritarian, undemocratic, and all the rest. . .but it seems to be the only answer to the "build more houses yesterday" cries."
Every ladder is just waiting for a boomer to pull up behind them :)

No individual or entity should be allowed own more than one rented residential property. Buy and own as many as you like but being a landlord should never ever be a profession, nevermind such a lucrative one. More than one? sell it, holiday in it. 20? sell them all, buy commercial property, invest in bitcoin or whatever. Leech off someone/something else that isn't a basic human right.

Worked hard all your life to buy properties for a pension or whatever? Don't rip off others to the extent that you're stealing their pensions and mortgages. Or just sell it

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12133 - 25/03/2024 16:02:06    2533640

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Replying To Breffni40:  "Every ladder is just waiting for a boomer to pull up behind them :)

No individual or entity should be allowed own more than one rented residential property. Buy and own as many as you like but being a landlord should never ever be a profession, nevermind such a lucrative one. More than one? sell it, holiday in it. 20? sell them all, buy commercial property, invest in bitcoin or whatever. Leech off someone/something else that isn't a basic human right.

Worked hard all your life to buy properties for a pension or whatever? Don't rip off others to the extent that you're stealing their pensions and mortgages. Or just sell it"
And when those who want to rent somewhere temporarily, be it for a year, 2 years, 5 years, but not buy there. . .do they just live in hotels and hostels when there are no rentals available?

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5028 - 25/03/2024 16:36:41    2533656

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Replying To cavanman47:  "OK.

Let's cut through the anecdotal stories then and examine what is and isn't affordable to the average worker in this country vs what their needs might be.

The median wage in Ireland is around 45000 euro per annum. Some earn less of course.
In the likes of Meath, Kildare, Wicklow (the commutable-to-Dublin counties) anyone earning under 40k is entitled to be placed on the housing register.

So instead of 45k, let's take the example of someone earning €40,001 per annum. (Worst case scenario)
They are single, so this is their total income.
They have never owned a house in the past.
They are working in full time employment.

In this example, this person would be eligible to borrow 3.5 x 40k. . . So €140k. This plus a 10% deposit allows them to purchase a property for just over 150k, but let's say 150k for ease of argument. (Worse case scenario)

A quick Daft.ie search as of today shows available turn-key properties in Athy, Navan, Kilmessan, Tinahely and others for 150k or less.

Now, it's not a spanking new 3 bed townhouse in Ranelagh next door to the latest gastro-cafe or a penthouse overlooking grand canal Square, but these are properties within commutable distances of Dublin that would satisfy the NEEDS of the person described above.

Would I WANT to swap where I'm living for any of these alternatives? No, I wouldn't. But if I NEEDED to, all would be viable options for me.

If I WANT somewhere nicer or more conveniently located, then I need to look at my employment situation and seek to improve it. Maybe I should up-skill. Maybe I should take advantage of the national employment shortage and change job or use it as leverage in seeking a pay rise. There are numerous channels I could go down, but the principle is the same. . .I need to ask myself "where do I need to get to in 12 or 24 months in order to better position myself to afford the house I want?"

My experience is that some people ask themselves that question, take appropriate action, and get to where they want to.
Others don't look inwards, don't take action, and are left complaining in 24 months time that it's the system that's failing them and that their mate or neighbour just got lucky."
Prices on daft are pretty anecdotal to be fair.

I was in a few bidding wars a couple of years back.

You can assume 200k will reach 300k when the retired Dublin civil servant with the three pensions enters the frey.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2759 - 26/03/2024 00:10:30    2533779

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Prices on daft are pretty anecdotal to be fair.

I was in a few bidding wars a couple of years back.

You can assume 200k will reach 300k when the retired Dublin civil servant with the three pensions enters the frey."
At some point yourself and Breff are going to realise you are both just proving my point!

It's easier to moan and nay-say than admit there's more people could be doing to improve their own situation.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5028 - 26/03/2024 10:26:07    2533809

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Filter 1-bed minimum and the sites won't show up.

The point of my post was that even for the worst case scenario (outside of those where the government intervenes and pays someone's way), there are options there.

Also, if you happen to find yourself in such a scenario, there are options to help move up the ladder, as it were (springboard funding of further education, funded skills courses, etc).

Sure, my analysis may not be a black-and-white catch-all one, but I'm backing up my original point: that it starts with the individual.

Have you any rational solutions?

I suggested 100% mortgages as a very quick improvement that requires nothing but adequate due diligence on the part of the banks to successfully control. (I have 2 lesser options I'll share which are light versions of this if you want).

The only other one you could look at is to officially declare a housing emergency and thus by-pass the standard planning and appeals process.
It's radical, authoritarian, undemocratic, and all the rest. . .but it seems to be the only answer to the "build more houses yesterday" cries."
A great many radical measures need to be taken.

A government that is serious about tackling the problems we have in relation to housing would have taken action a long, long time ago.

Figures released today confirm that the number of properties currently for sale in Ireland is at its lowest in almost 20 years. Not unsurprisingly, property prices continue to climb.

It should be quite evident that banks don't sell houses. So no amount of relaxation of bank lending policies is going to magic houses out of thin air.

And of course neither is talking about it any more. The time for action is now; starting by removing the majority of private landlords from the so-called market. Means test it, limit property ownership to two properties per landlord, increase taxation on rental income. Just do whatever needs to be done, and do it NOW before things get much much worse.

This is one part of an action plan. There are a huge amount of other steps which need to happen to ensure a sustainable housing system for all future generations, and not to continue repeating the mistakes of the past.

oceanofnoise (Meath) - Posts: 44 - 26/03/2024 10:28:17    2533810

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Replying To cavanman47:  "At some point yourself and Breff are going to realise you are both just proving my point!

It's easier to moan and nay-say than admit there's more people could be doing to improve their own situation."
I agree with you on that.

Absolutely people should start with themselves but that doesn't change the fact that the market is broken.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2759 - 26/03/2024 10:51:53    2533814

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Replying To oceanofnoise:  "A great many radical measures need to be taken.

A government that is serious about tackling the problems we have in relation to housing would have taken action a long, long time ago.

Figures released today confirm that the number of properties currently for sale in Ireland is at its lowest in almost 20 years. Not unsurprisingly, property prices continue to climb.

It should be quite evident that banks don't sell houses. So no amount of relaxation of bank lending policies is going to magic houses out of thin air.

And of course neither is talking about it any more. The time for action is now; starting by removing the majority of private landlords from the so-called market. Means test it, limit property ownership to two properties per landlord, increase taxation on rental income. Just do whatever needs to be done, and do it NOW before things get much much worse.

This is one part of an action plan. There are a huge amount of other steps which need to happen to ensure a sustainable housing system for all future generations, and not to continue repeating the mistakes of the past."
So limit rental properties to 2 per landlord and what exactly do you think will happen?

I can tell you;
The landlord's spouse, children, siblings, friends will suddenly become landlords.
Increase tax on rental income and more rentals will be done under the table.


Houses won't be made appear out of thin air, but when the main opposition party is the biggest objectors to new builds in the state, it's a bit rich saying the government aren't serious about addressing the issue.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5028 - 26/03/2024 11:55:30    2533843

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Replying To cavanman47:  "So limit rental properties to 2 per landlord and what exactly do you think will happen?

I can tell you;
The landlord's spouse, children, siblings, friends will suddenly become landlords.
Increase tax on rental income and more rentals will be done under the table.


Houses won't be made appear out of thin air, but when the main opposition party is the biggest objectors to new builds in the state, it's a bit rich saying the government aren't serious about addressing the issue."
Grand. Let's just leave things exactly as they are and watch the country rot so.

oceanofnoise (Meath) - Posts: 44 - 26/03/2024 12:00:37    2533845

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Replying To oceanofnoise:  "Grand. Let's just leave things exactly as they are and watch the country rot so."
Yeah ive been convinced. Nothing can be done. People just need to work harder and harder and harder while the prices go up up up and their income remains the same.

People will die homeless on the streets but we'll still have an economy, which of course is the only reason for living!

The only reason families are sleeping in cars is because their kind landlord/bank/employer only wanted market value for their investment/assets. This is normal!

Perhaps we could add some more hours to the day, so people can get up even earlier in the morning to work hard, really hard. Unlike others!

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12133 - 26/03/2024 13:32:06    2533868

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Replying To oceanofnoise:  "Grand. Let's just leave things exactly as they are and watch the country rot so."
Not for a second saying nothing should be done. But the solutions you put forward aren't practically workable.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5028 - 26/03/2024 14:00:28    2533878

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