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Replying To Galway9801:  "Would ya give over. It's a reasonably stress free job with decent pay but it's not unbelievably privileged.
My best mate is a plumber and he takes home 200 euro a week more than me,(not a
Those prices in 2012 were half what they are now, sure, but they were the same for everyone.
Like I said anyone could have done what I done."
I'm sure you worked hard for it and made sacrifices, like everyone who owns a home but you're still missing my point.

This is the first generation in the history of capitalism that are better educated, harder working, yet financially worse of than their parents.

The world we're in now is nothing like the world of 2012. We had massive unemployment and excess supply then. Yes you made good choices, but you're the exception not the rule.

There are thousands of couples with masters working White collar Jobs now that will never own a home. Landlords are part of this problem.

Take the very common example of an inheritance property or a pension property. They own them. Their costs are not increasing, yet they've tripled the rent in the last decade. That is absolutely deplorable gouging at the expense of decent hard working families.

Just to note I have no stake in this. I'm fortunate enough to be a home owner. I made good choices and some sacrifices too, but I recognize that I'm unbelievably lucky, and many of my peers haven't had that luck.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2759 - 24/03/2024 11:28:25    2533005

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Replying To cavanman47:  "What you're not saying is that he made the right choices and put in the effort to get there, instead of sitting on his a*** and complaining that a house hasn't fallen into his lap yet."
Do you think people actually expect homes for nothing?

I think they expect a fair shake.

You have group a who are incapable, or totally unwilling to work. The state will give them a House.

Group b are the lucky ones who got 100% mortgages in the boom.

Group c are generational wealth getting help from their parents.

Group d are who I'm advocating for. Educated, working hard, squeezed from every angle and trapped in a completely broken private rental market. This group should not exist. It's an enormous moral cloud blocking out the light of our wonderful country.

I'm from Wexford lads. We cannot stomach this type of injustice. Tremendous wealth built on the blood sweat and tears of decent people. The ones who contribute most to our broken society.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2759 - 24/03/2024 11:35:19    2533006

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Do you think people actually expect homes for nothing?

I think they expect a fair shake.

You have group a who are incapable, or totally unwilling to work. The state will give them a House.

Group b are the lucky ones who got 100% mortgages in the boom.

Group c are generational wealth getting help from their parents.

Group d are who I'm advocating for. Educated, working hard, squeezed from every angle and trapped in a completely broken private rental market. This group should not exist. It's an enormous moral cloud blocking out the light of our wonderful country.

I'm from Wexford lads. We cannot stomach this type of injustice. Tremendous wealth built on the blood sweat and tears of decent people. The ones who contribute most to our broken society."
Spot on Doyler

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12258 - 24/03/2024 11:56:01    2533013

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "I'm sure you worked hard for it and made sacrifices, like everyone who owns a home but you're still missing my point.

This is the first generation in the history of capitalism that are better educated, harder working, yet financially worse of than their parents.

The world we're in now is nothing like the world of 2012. We had massive unemployment and excess supply then. Yes you made good choices, but you're the exception not the rule.

There are thousands of couples with masters working White collar Jobs now that will never own a home. Landlords are part of this problem.

Take the very common example of an inheritance property or a pension property. They own them. Their costs are not increasing, yet they've tripled the rent in the last decade. That is absolutely deplorable gouging at the expense of decent hard working families.

Just to note I have no stake in this. I'm fortunate enough to be a home owner. I made good choices and some sacrifices too, but I recognize that I'm unbelievably lucky, and many of my peers haven't had that luck."
Well there you go. By your own words making good choices was the exception, not the rule, and now the people who made bad choices are passing the blame.
Better educated means nothing. Lots of degrees are completely worthless. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that couples with masters are struggling financially.
To say our generation is harder working than our parents is a bit of an unfair generalisation.

Landlords provide a service, and it is a service that is in huge demand right now, so unfortunately, the prices tend to go up. Horribly stringent lending rules and lack of new builds are behind the crisis.

If I do decide to invest in a second home I'd say the banks and the government would be laughing their backsides off watching people like me take the blame for the crisis.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1761 - 24/03/2024 12:06:53    2533016

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Replying To Viking66:  "Spot on Doyler"
His first sentence isnt spot on.
If you put your name on a list for a council house you're literally expecting a house for nothing.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1761 - 24/03/2024 12:08:14    2533018

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "I'm sure you worked hard for it and made sacrifices, like everyone who owns a home but you're still missing my point.

This is the first generation in the history of capitalism that are better educated, harder working, yet financially worse of than their parents.

The world we're in now is nothing like the world of 2012. We had massive unemployment and excess supply then. Yes you made good choices, but you're the exception not the rule.

There are thousands of couples with masters working White collar Jobs now that will never own a home. Landlords are part of this problem.

Take the very common example of an inheritance property or a pension property. They own them. Their costs are not increasing, yet they've tripled the rent in the last decade. That is absolutely deplorable gouging at the expense of decent hard working families.

Just to note I have no stake in this. I'm fortunate enough to be a home owner. I made good choices and some sacrifices too, but I recognize that I'm unbelievably lucky, and many of my peers haven't had that luck."
They're not better educated or harder working than their parents. They may have more qualifications but it's not the same thing. Just because education is more accessible doesn't make it a better standard of education. For me the standard of secondary and third level education here has dropped. Too much emphasis on passing exams without practical understanding of the topics studied at secondary and third level. Too many Mickey Mouse courses available where graduates don't understand what they've studied. There's Engineering graduates who have never seen a PLC, their only interaction with logic controllers is using a simulator! So it's little wonder they don't get a job in the field they graduated in. Many of them don't have the iniative to know that and get some practical experience first, they have unrealistic salary demands based on very little experience. And when the country went wallop many trades went college and unskilled to get degrees showing some iniative, unlike a lot of our youth. Not sitting at home struggling through the slowdown. Many working now in their graduate jobs doing Plumbing, Electrician nixers on their days off, fair play to them. More of them are BER assesors now too. Can do a free course to become a BER assessor. How many graduates working white collar jobs would go and do that course to top up their income? There's some irony that you can become a BER assessor for free and the BER certs are, arguably, adding to the cost of houses.

Not all of our youth haven't much initiative I might add. Some of them have the cop on to budget for a house that isn't next door to Mam and Dad and a short cycle to work. They'll move further away and put up with a long commute to get an affordable roof over their head. So there's a cohort that shouldn't expect to be buying a house. There's plenty of greedy landlords but they don't set the market rate for property, they don't dictate how banks sell mortgages and they do not give incentives to buyers to buy new houses and very little incentive to buying an older property. Lots of variables in 2024 but buying a house is doable, if not a new home at the address you aspire to. Life isn't fair sometimes but complaining about it rather than seeing the system and how to get a house, is wasting time. Budgeting, having a steady income making yourself a good candidate for a mortgage is what matters. No matter what the job is. Banks don't care if your job is what you have a masters in as long as you can pay the mortgage.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7391 - 24/03/2024 13:33:41    2533038

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Oh I'd love to know why you won't post ANY of my opinions on this?

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8603 - 24/03/2024 15:09:56    2533067

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Replying To Galway9801:  "His first sentence isnt spot on.
If you put your name on a list for a council house you're literally expecting a house for nothing."
Not entirely correct. You do have to pay rent. You're just protected against unreasonable increases and have security of tenancy.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2759 - 24/03/2024 16:16:25    2533146

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In all this debate about housing, it's evident that there's an attitude from certain people that everyone should be able to afford a house if they work and save hard. I use the word "attitude" because it drips off every word.

I'm from Co. Meath, so will try to use some examples from close to home; At the moment, there are couple of 5 bedroom houses in housing estates* for sale within the county. One has an asking price of 590K, the other is looking for 725K. If you are of the opinion that that these prices are somehow reasonable, then I honestly think you need your head examined. If you can't or won't see that the cost of a house relative to people's income is completely out of sync, then there is literally no point debating.
*I'm not some sort of housing estate snob. I have lived many's a housing estate. I just use these examples because houses in housing estates should generally be the most affordable type of house we build.

I would also add, that if you are of the opinion that banks and lending practices are the main issue with housing here, then it's definitely a lost cause trying to talk with you. For obvious reasons, we have a heavily regulated mortgage lending market. That can only be a good thing.

A lot of people in this country can't seem to look past the end of their own nose and see other people's struggles. And a struggle, by the way, for the "there are 25,000 people a day dying from hunger" merchants, is relative to your own personal circumstances. The world is full of absolute horror; famine, war, genocide, oppression. If you start talking about all these things relative to the Irish housing crisis, then all you're trying to do is employ distraction techniques and disregard people's concerns about their own personal struggles to find a home. Most reasonable folk would see that the lot of a person experiencing war in Gaza at the moment cannot be compared to anything on this Earth. It is beyond our comprehension. You would have to experience the horror to understand the horror.

I get the impression that a lot of people from the "work hard, save hard" brigade have never had the experience of their life being turned absolutely upside down and inside out via some sort of major life event.

I go back to something I said in a previous post; the lack of empathy on here is just staggering. Congratulations if you bought a house in 2012. But walk a mile in my shoes and all that...

oceanofnoise (Meath) - Posts: 44 - 24/03/2024 18:10:54    2533227

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Replying To PattyONeill:  "
Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "GAA green lights rugby and soccer activity to take place in Croke Park and Pairc Ui Chaoimh

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Barney will be chocking on his coddle."
Given that soccer people have been complaining so much about funding going to Casement Park they can stay well away as far as I am concerned.
I find it strange how the RTE article mentioned the Tailteann Games being played at Croke Park as if it something foreign. The Tailteann Games was the centre piece of Gaelic athletics. I bet in those ancient Tailteann Games the Ulster men reigned supreme."
I tired to open a tread on this big news but not allowed for some reason ?

brisbane (Galway) - Posts: 674 - 24/03/2024 18:25:57    2533239

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Replying To oceanofnoise:  "In all this debate about housing, it's evident that there's an attitude from certain people that everyone should be able to afford a house if they work and save hard. I use the word "attitude" because it drips off every word.

I'm from Co. Meath, so will try to use some examples from close to home; At the moment, there are couple of 5 bedroom houses in housing estates* for sale within the county. One has an asking price of 590K, the other is looking for 725K. If you are of the opinion that that these prices are somehow reasonable, then I honestly think you need your head examined. If you can't or won't see that the cost of a house relative to people's income is completely out of sync, then there is literally no point debating.
*I'm not some sort of housing estate snob. I have lived many's a housing estate. I just use these examples because houses in housing estates should generally be the most affordable type of house we build.

I would also add, that if you are of the opinion that banks and lending practices are the main issue with housing here, then it's definitely a lost cause trying to talk with you. For obvious reasons, we have a heavily regulated mortgage lending market. That can only be a good thing.

A lot of people in this country can't seem to look past the end of their own nose and see other people's struggles. And a struggle, by the way, for the "there are 25,000 people a day dying from hunger" merchants, is relative to your own personal circumstances. The world is full of absolute horror; famine, war, genocide, oppression. If you start talking about all these things relative to the Irish housing crisis, then all you're trying to do is employ distraction techniques and disregard people's concerns about their own personal struggles to find a home. Most reasonable folk would see that the lot of a person experiencing war in Gaza at the moment cannot be compared to anything on this Earth. It is beyond our comprehension. You would have to experience the horror to understand the horror.

I get the impression that a lot of people from the "work hard, save hard" brigade have never had the experience of their life being turned absolutely upside down and inside out via some sort of major life event.

I go back to something I said in a previous post; the lack of empathy on here is just staggering. Congratulations if you bought a house in 2012. But walk a mile in my shoes and all that..."
Fantastic post

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2759 - 24/03/2024 21:40:14    2533342

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Replying To Galway9801:  "His first sentence isnt spot on.
If you put your name on a list for a council house you're literally expecting a house for nothing."
I know many working people who rent council houses. I'm sure you deliver post to many of them.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12258 - 24/03/2024 22:19:51    2533361

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Replying To oceanofnoise:  "In all this debate about housing, it's evident that there's an attitude from certain people that everyone should be able to afford a house if they work and save hard. I use the word "attitude" because it drips off every word.

I'm from Co. Meath, so will try to use some examples from close to home; At the moment, there are couple of 5 bedroom houses in housing estates* for sale within the county. One has an asking price of 590K, the other is looking for 725K. If you are of the opinion that that these prices are somehow reasonable, then I honestly think you need your head examined. If you can't or won't see that the cost of a house relative to people's income is completely out of sync, then there is literally no point debating.
*I'm not some sort of housing estate snob. I have lived many's a housing estate. I just use these examples because houses in housing estates should generally be the most affordable type of house we build.

I would also add, that if you are of the opinion that banks and lending practices are the main issue with housing here, then it's definitely a lost cause trying to talk with you. For obvious reasons, we have a heavily regulated mortgage lending market. That can only be a good thing.

A lot of people in this country can't seem to look past the end of their own nose and see other people's struggles. And a struggle, by the way, for the "there are 25,000 people a day dying from hunger" merchants, is relative to your own personal circumstances. The world is full of absolute horror; famine, war, genocide, oppression. If you start talking about all these things relative to the Irish housing crisis, then all you're trying to do is employ distraction techniques and disregard people's concerns about their own personal struggles to find a home. Most reasonable folk would see that the lot of a person experiencing war in Gaza at the moment cannot be compared to anything on this Earth. It is beyond our comprehension. You would have to experience the horror to understand the horror.

I get the impression that a lot of people from the "work hard, save hard" brigade have never had the experience of their life being turned absolutely upside down and inside out via some sort of major life event.

I go back to something I said in a previous post; the lack of empathy on here is just staggering. Congratulations if you bought a house in 2012. But walk a mile in my shoes and all that..."
I used the global problems argument in response to doylers assertion that I had no morals or humanity. I found it to be a load of guff, self righteous tbh

Whether or not I decide to invest in a second home that comes onto the market in order to rent it out, thus becoming a landlord, those houses you mentioned will still be out of reach.

I know a couple who saved, quite literally, 100k, over the course of a few years, and were told by the bank that it wasn't enough (I don't know the asking price of the house). For you to say that this can "only be a good thing" is totally unfair to those people putting in the effort.

I don't understand your "wall a mile in my shoes" argument. I've mentioned a few times at this stage that I wasn't earning any more money than my friends and peers at the time,, most of them were, and are earning more than me..

I walked the same mile they walked, I just chose to wear more comfortable shoes.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1761 - 24/03/2024 22:55:22    2533381

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Replying To Viking66:  "I know many working people who rent council houses. I'm sure you deliver post to many of them."
What rent are they paying?

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1761 - 24/03/2024 22:55:52    2533383

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And ocean of noise, before I call it for the night, id like to clarify your "work hard, save hard brigade" line. There seemed to be a sneering tone to that line.
Any functioning society needs people to work hard, and all the better if they're careful with their money.
Are you suggesting that working and being careful with money is something to be frowned upon?

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1761 - 24/03/2024 23:18:23    2533393

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Replying To Galway9801:  "What rent are they paying?"
Nowhere near the 1200-1500 per month that private landlords are charging down here. Its a supply and demand issue. Very basic economics. We don't have enough housing, especially affordable housing.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12258 - 25/03/2024 00:35:33    2533404

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Replying To oceanofnoise:  "In all this debate about housing, it's evident that there's an attitude from certain people that everyone should be able to afford a house if they work and save hard. I use the word "attitude" because it drips off every word.

I'm from Co. Meath, so will try to use some examples from close to home; At the moment, there are couple of 5 bedroom houses in housing estates* for sale within the county. One has an asking price of 590K, the other is looking for 725K. If you are of the opinion that that these prices are somehow reasonable, then I honestly think you need your head examined. If you can't or won't see that the cost of a house relative to people's income is completely out of sync, then there is literally no point debating.
*I'm not some sort of housing estate snob. I have lived many's a housing estate. I just use these examples because houses in housing estates should generally be the most affordable type of house we build.

I would also add, that if you are of the opinion that banks and lending practices are the main issue with housing here, then it's definitely a lost cause trying to talk with you. For obvious reasons, we have a heavily regulated mortgage lending market. That can only be a good thing.

A lot of people in this country can't seem to look past the end of their own nose and see other people's struggles. And a struggle, by the way, for the "there are 25,000 people a day dying from hunger" merchants, is relative to your own personal circumstances. The world is full of absolute horror; famine, war, genocide, oppression. If you start talking about all these things relative to the Irish housing crisis, then all you're trying to do is employ distraction techniques and disregard people's concerns about their own personal struggles to find a home. Most reasonable folk would see that the lot of a person experiencing war in Gaza at the moment cannot be compared to anything on this Earth. It is beyond our comprehension. You would have to experience the horror to understand the horror.

I get the impression that a lot of people from the "work hard, save hard" brigade have never had the experience of their life being turned absolutely upside down and inside out via some sort of major life event.

I go back to something I said in a previous post; the lack of empathy on here is just staggering. Congratulations if you bought a house in 2012. But walk a mile in my shoes and all that..."
A 725K newly built house is a house.

A 15 year old 300K house is a house.

Cut your cloth to measure. It's very stressful looking for a house and take advice from anyone you can. Filter good tips from bad.

No-one's entitled to buy a new house beside Mammy and Daddy in Dublin but fair play if they can do so relative to their income.

Not far from the Meath border, in Maynooth, a 3 bed new build will set you back 500K. Crazy money. Cynically I'll say it was 450K and someone says stick an 8K solar panel on it and charge another 50K. You can even buy a 600K 4 bed house in Maynooth with superb view of Tescos but it's a short walk to McDonalds.

I could buy a 3 bed, needing a good bit of work, near my hometown for <80K, but there's not much work there and house is in an isolated area

Close to where I live there's a 20 year old 3 bed house available for 265K asking price in a nice estate.

Dunno if it's good advice but I think always talk to the agent and visit the property. You'll get a feel for the house and the area, schools, shops, sports clubs, that you don't get to see online. Talk to the locals there. There's some good older houses available. Might mean another 20 mins driving each way to work, but your days off and where you live is as important as your job to you and your family's quality of life.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7391 - 25/03/2024 01:04:44    2533407

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Replying To Galway9801:  "And ocean of noise, before I call it for the night, id like to clarify your "work hard, save hard brigade" line. There seemed to be a sneering tone to that line.
Any functioning society needs people to work hard, and all the better if they're careful with their money.
Are you suggesting that working and being careful with money is something to be frowned upon?"
I agree wholeheartedly with everything you mention here. But it should be evident that due to the ratio of property price/income, working and saving hard is often not going to get a person a property that meets their needs.

oceanofnoise (Meath) - Posts: 44 - 25/03/2024 08:22:08    2533419

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Replying To Galway9801:  "I used the global problems argument in response to doylers assertion that I had no morals or humanity. I found it to be a load of guff, self righteous tbh

Whether or not I decide to invest in a second home that comes onto the market in order to rent it out, thus becoming a landlord, those houses you mentioned will still be out of reach.

I know a couple who saved, quite literally, 100k, over the course of a few years, and were told by the bank that it wasn't enough (I don't know the asking price of the house). For you to say that this can "only be a good thing" is totally unfair to those people putting in the effort.

I don't understand your "wall a mile in my shoes" argument. I've mentioned a few times at this stage that I wasn't earning any more money than my friends and peers at the time,, most of them were, and are earning more than me..

I walked the same mile they walked, I just chose to wear more comfortable shoes."
The couple you mention with the 100K deposit; these people are yet another example of the dysfunction in the property market. But not for the reason you believe.

Can you not see that if the banks are not giving a couple like this a mortgage, then maybe it's actually the supply/demand side of the property market that isn't working and not the bank's policies?

oceanofnoise (Meath) - Posts: 44 - 25/03/2024 08:30:51    2533422

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "A 725K newly built house is a house.

A 15 year old 300K house is a house.

Cut your cloth to measure. It's very stressful looking for a house and take advice from anyone you can. Filter good tips from bad.

No-one's entitled to buy a new house beside Mammy and Daddy in Dublin but fair play if they can do so relative to their income.

Not far from the Meath border, in Maynooth, a 3 bed new build will set you back 500K. Crazy money. Cynically I'll say it was 450K and someone says stick an 8K solar panel on it and charge another 50K. You can even buy a 600K 4 bed house in Maynooth with superb view of Tescos but it's a short walk to McDonalds.

I could buy a 3 bed, needing a good bit of work, near my hometown for <80K, but there's not much work there and house is in an isolated area

Close to where I live there's a 20 year old 3 bed house available for 265K asking price in a nice estate.

Dunno if it's good advice but I think always talk to the agent and visit the property. You'll get a feel for the house and the area, schools, shops, sports clubs, that you don't get to see online. Talk to the locals there. There's some good older houses available. Might mean another 20 mins driving each way to work, but your days off and where you live is as important as your job to you and your family's quality of life."
I should have clarified that both the 590k and 725k houses I mentioned yesterday are not new-builds. A house is a house, for sure. But a house which you have vastly overpaid for due to market rates is also a noose around your neck for the rest of your life.

I aree that people should buy according to their budget and not according to their desires.

I don't fully agree with you about people not having the right to buy a house close to their families or local community. I think it's very important for people to be involved in local community in some way or another, so there's nothing wrong per se with folk wanting to be immersed in the area they grew up in. Of course that may not be possible if it's out of budget, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be an aspiration.

All sound advice about talking with as many people as you can before you buy. Good neighbours don't grow on trees!

oceanofnoise (Meath) - Posts: 44 - 25/03/2024 08:40:34    2533425

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