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Replying To MachaireConnacht:  "But why do we need to spend huge money on the treatment instead of protecting the source? Unfortunately farming in this country is now industrialised and should not be distinguished from industry. The best way to avoid expensive water treatment and filters is stop the **** getting into our rivers, lakes and groundwater in the first place whether its from industrialised farming or factories. Rivers are in a desperate state and many in areas where the only heavy industry is farming like dairy. Origin green is the greatest cod on the planet. We're publicly subsidising industrial farming, much of the output of which is going abraod like baby formula to China, and then we have to pay again to treat/filter the water we've polluted through public funds. And I say that as someone who has no time for Eamonn Ryan and the D4 Greens. I'm saying it as someone who lives and works in rural Ireland and is seeing the place poisoned at an alarming rate over the past 20 years in particular. Most farmers are doing this because this is the way they've been led by government policy and the IFA. And most older farmers, in the west at least, know its not right and are well aware that the less intensive way was the best way. But they were pushed into a corner to go intensive, where go industrial or go home seems to be the mantra. The old people used to have a saying half stock half profit, full stock no profit and they were dead right. The price of full stock is costly for everybody now."
Very fair point about controlling the source of bad water rather than adding more cost when treating that bad water.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7322 - 04/03/2024 15:15:36    2529747

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "The sovereign people voted to reject the two treaties and were then made vote again.

Would you cancel election results if you don't like the outcome?"
Re-elections often happen when the original vote results in a stalemate/impasse.

There are plenty who voted for Brexit who wish they had a 2nd chance to vote on it now.

Nobody in this country is forced to vote, so not sure why you chose that word. And when they do vote, nobody is forced to vote in a particular way.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5009 - 04/03/2024 15:49:22    2529757

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Re-elections often happen when the original vote results in a stalemate/impasse.

There are plenty who voted for Brexit who wish they had a 2nd chance to vote on it now.

Nobody in this country is forced to vote, so not sure why you chose that word. And when they do vote, nobody is forced to vote in a particular way."
It wasn't a stalemate or an impasse!

The citizens having made a decision had that decision rejected and they were made to vote again on the two treaties.

That is what happened. Perhaps you know different?

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2511 - 04/03/2024 16:18:21    2529768

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "It wasn't a stalemate or an impasse!

The citizens having made a decision had that decision rejected and they were made to vote again on the two treaties.

That is what happened. Perhaps you know different?"
Eh barney you do realise lisbon treaty came about because french and dutch votwrs had rejected eu constution in earlier votes and ireland were only coubtry to hold a referendum so would be quite different to rest of countries which voted on treaty in their parliments.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3494 - 04/03/2024 17:10:45    2529784

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "It wasn't a stalemate or an impasse!

The citizens having made a decision had that decision rejected and they were made to vote again on the two treaties.

That is what happened. Perhaps you know different?"
Nice was rejected as the fear was that it would compromise Ireland's neutrality.

A subsequent agreement was signed prevent our neutrality being compromised before the 2nd Nice vote.


Lisbon 1 was rejected with feedback showing the voters didn't feel it had been adequately explained in real terms.

Lisbon 2 was held after a far more comprehensive campaign. The question put to the people was the same, and the opportunity to vote Yes or No was every bit as open as it was first time around.


Both were an impasse as the Irish government has it written into law that a referendum is required before they can agree to these agreements. So even when all of Europe apart from Ireland were leaning one way, it wasn't until the Ireland people democratically approved both treaties that they could be ratified.


Is there something different you're seeking from your democratic parliament? Care to suggest what that might look like?

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5009 - 04/03/2024 18:27:24    2529803

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "It wasn't a stalemate or an impasse!

The citizens having made a decision had that decision rejected and they were made to vote again on the two treaties.

That is what happened. Perhaps you know different?"
Nobody is "made to vote"
It's totally voluntary.
But don't let the facts get in the way of a good oul whingy moan.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1379 - 04/03/2024 18:51:35    2529807

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "We don't even set our targetsBarney. We do what the EU tells us to do. We now have a deposit return scheme which our government, Dublin not Brussels, claims 'will reduce litter and boost Ireland's recycling rates' which the EU made us implement. It will create more journeys back to shops to claim a deposit back when we have recycling bins at home to recycle them and we're already paying for. Can't be good for the environment despite more transport emissions and recycling emissions and recycling scrap waste. Even if it's not a political show I thought Kielty was very soft on Ryan. Why didn't he ask about domestic drinking water quality when he was talking about improving water quality? Plenty of grants if you've a few quid for electric cars, electric heat pumps, solar panels but no grants for homeowners to cover some cost of fitting a water filter system. Improve the drinking water, minimise plastic water bottle waste. Forget about pushing recycling on people as the best option. Encourage them to reduce waste by buying less non-essentials. Not many middle class votes in that though or VAT returns telling people to spend less. Bash the farmers, get some good headlines doing that, ignore the big industry polluters. Blame the petrol and diesel cars but don't incentive motorists to carpool more to work, shops, sports evens etc. And insult people's intelligence by telling them they have to pay a deposit for cans and plastic bottles so they don't litter, when the huge majority don't litter. A big boost for the recycling companies that collect this material for less effort. Vote no to this. Scheme covers plastic and cans not glass. Bottled beer is good lads. The queue for bottle banks starts here."
Have you ever looked in recycling bins? It has been proven that the use of an inventive increases recycling rates or the use of charges reduces waste. Nobody will go to the shop just to recycle the bottles you will bring them with you the next time you go to do your shopping. The only problem I have with the recycling is that it gives the impression that recycling solves the problem - reduction is the ultimate aim. So you are right reduced consumption on items which end up going to waste anyway is better - fast fashion for example - its not that the GP do not say these things but how do you legislate to solve them - tax fast fashion items - how do you do that? that is a mindset change for the public. Glass is not covered currently and would have to be managed differently however not many people carry around glass bottles in the bags, glass bottles tend to be consumed at home, bars restaurants etc. a lot of countries have deposit return for glass as well.
The GP are the fall guys for all of this and will be wiped out in the next GE, the changes needed were never going to be popular and everyone else was quite happy for them to take the heat for that. Look at the US - Biden touts his green agenda but the US is the biggest Oil producer in the world which has kept petrol prices down in the US - do you want to win the next election or produce less oil!

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1799 - 05/03/2024 02:55:35    2529869

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Interesting documentary, Runaway Joe, the elusive Joe Maloney.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7322 - 07/03/2024 04:17:38    2530151

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Let's hope these referendums pass tomorrow and women will not be locked up in their house all day and not allowed leave unless the parish priest gives them permissions.

Some day a woman may even become President. We can but dream ...

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2511 - 07/03/2024 17:44:31    2530218

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Let's hope these referendums pass tomorrow and women will not be locked up in their house all day and not allowed leave unless the parish priest gives them permissions.

Some day a woman may even become President. We can but dream ..."
The voting is ongoing and I doubt this comment will be up until after the polls have closed or very near closed but I'd be very surprised if these referendums pass, everyone I know that voted put down No and No.
Nobody understood what the vote is about and in that case the smart thing was to stay as we are.
The referendum wasn't explained or if it was I missed it, and I don't know about anyone else but we certainly got no info through the post on it.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2733 - 08/03/2024 20:26:35    2530374

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "The voting is ongoing and I doubt this comment will be up until after the polls have closed or very near closed but I'd be very surprised if these referendums pass, everyone I know that voted put down No and No.
Nobody understood what the vote is about and in that case the smart thing was to stay as we are.
The referendum wasn't explained or if it was I missed it, and I don't know about anyone else but we certainly got no info through the post on it."
The government didn't explain it because they weren't able to… they were hopeful of a small turnout out so those who did vote would pass the referendum in support of the government … When care groups were calling for a NO vote that tells you all you need to know about this referendum…!

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1885 - 09/03/2024 08:38:43    2530404

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Nobody is "made to vote"
It's totally voluntary.
But don't let the facts get in the way of a good oul whingy moan."
They weren't made to vote but holding a second referendum is as close as you can get to it without actually doing it, and even had we voted no a second time there would have been a third one imo.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1693 - 09/03/2024 12:33:08    2530436

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Nice was rejected as the fear was that it would compromise Ireland's neutrality.

A subsequent agreement was signed prevent our neutrality being compromised before the 2nd Nice vote.


Lisbon 1 was rejected with feedback showing the voters didn't feel it had been adequately explained in real terms.

Lisbon 2 was held after a far more comprehensive campaign. The question put to the people was the same, and the opportunity to vote Yes or No was every bit as open as it was first time around.


Both were an impasse as the Irish government has it written into law that a referendum is required before they can agree to these agreements. So even when all of Europe apart from Ireland were leaning one way, it wasn't until the Ireland people democratically approved both treaties that they could be ratified.


Is there something different you're seeking from your democratic parliament? Care to suggest what that might look like?"
Is there any chance that one of those agreements could be signed in the near future waiving our neutrality?
I know little about the ins and outs of these international agreements, legalities etc except that when push comes to shove they're effectively little more than a piece of paper,, in the event of a global conflict Ireland is a valuable location strategically and no way in hell will the EU allow us to simply sit it out, and I doubt very much that Leo will spend too much time sticking up for us either.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1693 - 09/03/2024 12:40:55    2530437

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "The government didn't explain it because they weren't able to… they were hopeful of a small turnout out so those who did vote would pass the referendum in support of the government … When care groups were calling for a NO vote that tells you all you need to know about this referendum…!"
Well I hope they respect the peoples vote now, I think another big factor is people are so sick of this government and it an opportunity to show that in a way too.
The establishment treat the people like sheep who will follow wherever they are led but I that the worm has turned.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2733 - 09/03/2024 13:17:33    2530444

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "Well I hope they respect the peoples vote now, I think another big factor is people are so sick of this government and it an opportunity to show that in a way too.
The establishment treat the people like sheep who will follow wherever they are led but I that the worm has turned."
I'm Not sure but I think Mary Lou has said she will push to re run the referendum in a few years if it's rejected,,

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1693 - 09/03/2024 13:42:34    2530448

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "Well I hope they respect the peoples vote now, I think another big factor is people are so sick of this government and it an opportunity to show that in a way too.
The establishment treat the people like sheep who will follow wherever they are led but I that the worm has turned."
The main opposition parties called for 2 yes votes too. .

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5009 - 09/03/2024 14:46:19    2530456

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "Well I hope they respect the peoples vote now, I think another big factor is people are so sick of this government and it an opportunity to show that in a way too.
The establishment treat the people like sheep who will follow wherever they are led but I that the worm has turned."
The establishment, including Sinn Féin, got a right kicking yesterday.

Mary Lou says she will re-run it! Apart from the fact that she will never get a chance now, why exactly? Do NGOs run SF now?

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2511 - 09/03/2024 14:50:21    2530458

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Replying To Galway9801:  "Is there any chance that one of those agreements could be signed in the near future waiving our neutrality?
I know little about the ins and outs of these international agreements, legalities etc except that when push comes to shove they're effectively little more than a piece of paper,, in the event of a global conflict Ireland is a valuable location strategically and no way in hell will the EU allow us to simply sit it out, and I doubt very much that Leo will spend too much time sticking up for us either."
It is a possibility, yes. But the EU won't have a say. They don't control what NATO-allied countries do in these situations and the EU was, after-all, set up specifically to avoid conflicts like the world wars.

The government, the UN and the Dail as a whole all need to agree. Could happen. Came very close under Jack Lynch.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5009 - 09/03/2024 15:05:53    2530461

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "The establishment, including Sinn Féin, got a right kicking yesterday.

Mary Lou says she will re-run it! Apart from the fact that she will never get a chance now, why exactly? Do NGOs run SF now?"
Hasn't SF always been run by a NGO - the Army Council?

At a time of record levels of homelessness, lack of housing and long waiting lists the Government was wasting time and money on a frivolous meaningless Referendum.
If there's a problem with 1930s social mores in the Bunreacht why not go through and modernise the entire document?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1379 - 09/03/2024 15:33:42    2530466

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Hasn't SF always been run by a NGO - the Army Council?

At a time of record levels of homelessness, lack of housing and long waiting lists the Government was wasting time and money on a frivolous meaningless Referendum.
If there's a problem with 1930s social mores in the Bunreacht why not go through and modernise the entire document?"
Significantly ncreasing our population at a time of record levels of homelessness and long waiting lists would seem to be a pretty bad idea too yet you seem to be in favour of that...

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1693 - 09/03/2024 16:02:01    2530472

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