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And i mean if the Department of Education approach it in a different way from Junior Infants.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7868 - 20/02/2024 20:15:58    2527272

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Replying To Breffni40:  "Landlords"
Landlord income is earned.

Not all rent paid is earned. Is that what you're getting at?

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5008 - 20/02/2024 22:04:06    2527288

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "I can hold my own with anyone on history.

The point is you can have socialist policies within a free market system.

Economic and social policies are completely independent of eachother and that's where it differs from communism.

James Larkin and Connolly are founding fathers of our labour party. They were socialists.

Social democrats founded by Roisin shorthall and Catherine Murphy. Socialists.

All Nordic countries are socialist in the free market system. Not Communist.

An argument can be made for France.

We're basically falling out over the difference between collective ownership and state ownership.

You can have a socialist taxation policy without taking private land.

Definitions and ideologies evolve over time."
Labels Doyler thats all they are and everyone gets sucked in by the media into simplifying what is happening in the world through the use of labels. If the US is at odds with another country the government line is always about them being communist. If the US gets slightly annoyed with some country the media start referring to the country as a socialist knowing that in a lot of peoples mind there is little difference between that and communism. The manipulation of the masses through the media by the use of labels has being going on for years. At the end of day countries have to decide for themselves what balance they want or well at least the countries where people get a choice.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1798 - 21/02/2024 02:29:34    2527303

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Replying To cavanman47:  "I think you've hit the nail on the head there in terms of how Ireland's 'socialist' political parties lean.

The earned wealth in this country is more directly distributed to those who don't earn than in any other country in the western world. (i.e. we have high social welfare and under-investment in services as a result)."
There's a huge gap in this country between the richest 3% and the rest of the population. By GDP per capita we are the 3rd richest country in the world. But at the same time our average industrial wage is 550 euro. Pitifully small compared to most Northern European countries. We have more universal, as in not means tested, social welfare payments such as children's allowance also. The can't work won't work brigade need educated, but also the opportunity to earn a decent wage to incentivise them to work. Why work your ass off for 400 odd euro a week when that won't even pay the rent on a grotty hole for you and your family to live in?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11643 - 21/02/2024 07:50:11    2527309

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Landlord income is earned.

Not all rent paid is earned. Is that what you're getting at?"
No. There's a huge chunk of peoples earnings going straight to landlords who earn it by nothing more than accident of birth, either through inheritance or purchasing it for a relative pittance. Then there's the vulture funds taking their cut out of the economy. Not earned either.

I know social welfare is a huge bugbear of yours but I really don't believe it's as significant as you do

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12110 - 21/02/2024 11:03:09    2527343

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Replying To Breffni40:  "No. There's a huge chunk of peoples earnings going straight to landlords who earn it by nothing more than accident of birth, either through inheritance or purchasing it for a relative pittance. Then there's the vulture funds taking their cut out of the economy. Not earned either.

I know social welfare is a huge bugbear of yours but I really don't believe it's as significant as you do"
Welfare is the second largest budget after health.

I worked as a manager in the deasp for a while. I was unbelievably naive going into it. We have a huge cohort of people who for generations welfare is a lifestyle choice. To be fair, they're gifted in finding ways to not work. This is almost unique to Ireland.

Having said that I agree with you. Landlords income is not earned. Generational wealth is having a massive impact on the housing crisis that people refuse to acknowledge.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2621 - 21/02/2024 12:07:05    2527351

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Replying To Breffni40:  "No. There's a huge chunk of peoples earnings going straight to landlords who earn it by nothing more than accident of birth, either through inheritance or purchasing it for a relative pittance. Then there's the vulture funds taking their cut out of the economy. Not earned either.

I know social welfare is a huge bugbear of yours but I really don't believe it's as significant as you do"
Well hold on. Purchasing a house for 'relative pittance' is just a good investment. If someone then rents out that house at market value, as opposed to leaving it lying idle, then they have earned the right to do so (accident/good fortune of birth is completely different obviously).

For the record, I'm not and have never been a landlord and I rented in Dublin for over 15 years.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5008 - 21/02/2024 12:34:57    2527356

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Welfare is the second largest budget after health.

I worked as a manager in the deasp for a while. I was unbelievably naive going into it. We have a huge cohort of people who for generations welfare is a lifestyle choice. To be fair, they're gifted in finding ways to not work. This is almost unique to Ireland.

Having said that I agree with you. Landlords income is not earned. Generational wealth is having a massive impact on the housing crisis that people refuse to acknowledge."
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-spei/socialprotectionexpenditureinireland2021/mainresults/#:~:text=The%20Public%20Health%20scheme%20is,4.9bn%20or%208.3%25).

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12110 - 21/02/2024 12:35:12    2527357

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Welfare is the second largest budget after health.

I worked as a manager in the deasp for a while. I was unbelievably naive going into it. We have a huge cohort of people who for generations welfare is a lifestyle choice. To be fair, they're gifted in finding ways to not work. This is almost unique to Ireland.

Having said that I agree with you. Landlords income is not earned. Generational wealth is having a massive impact on the housing crisis that people refuse to acknowledge."
It's not that it's not acknowledged, it's 100% intentional and designed this way. Property is theft :)

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12110 - 21/02/2024 12:38:00    2527358

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Well hold on. Purchasing a house for 'relative pittance' is just a good investment. If someone then rents out that house at market value, as opposed to leaving it lying idle, then they have earned the right to do so (accident/good fortune of birth is completely different obviously).

For the record, I'm not and have never been a landlord and I rented in Dublin for over 15 years."
No I mean people who have bought houses, in my lifetime, for less than 30k. Now using that good fortune to exploit the next generation. We know who inflated and destroyed the economy, and these people and those who voted for and continue to vote for, are still on this gravy train.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12110 - 21/02/2024 13:13:58    2527371

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Welfare is the second largest budget after health.

I worked as a manager in the deasp for a while. I was unbelievably naive going into it. We have a huge cohort of people who for generations welfare is a lifestyle choice. To be fair, they're gifted in finding ways to not work. This is almost unique to Ireland.

Having said that I agree with you. Landlords income is not earned. Generational wealth is having a massive impact on the housing crisis that people refuse to acknowledge."
Social welfare is a small price to pay for a peaceful society, and the money given out is all spent back into the economy right away, don't think the they are saving their 200 euros a week?
It's the crooks at the top we should worry about,
the poor are there just to remind the middle classes to keep going to work and paying taxes or else this is how you end up!

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2731 - 21/02/2024 14:25:39    2527387

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "Social welfare is a small price to pay for a peaceful society, and the money given out is all spent back into the economy right away, don't think the they are saving their 200 euros a week?
It's the crooks at the top we should worry about,
the poor are there just to remind the middle classes to keep going to work and paying taxes or else this is how you end up!"
Funnily enough tho. . .you can become middle class by going to work and paying taxes. That fact seems lost on some.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5008 - 21/02/2024 19:30:26    2527437

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Welfare is the second largest budget after health.

I worked as a manager in the deasp for a while. I was unbelievably naive going into it. We have a huge cohort of people who for generations welfare is a lifestyle choice. To be fair, they're gifted in finding ways to not work. This is almost unique to Ireland.

Having said that I agree with you. Landlords income is not earned. Generational wealth is having a massive impact on the housing crisis that people refuse to acknowledge."
I thought your welfare was suspended if you didn't engage with the DEASP?

bruffgael (Limerick) - Posts: 141 - 21/02/2024 19:38:59    2527439

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Replying To bruffgael:  "I thought your welfare was suspended if you didn't engage with the DEASP?"
That's true. Reduced or suspended.

The problem is how vague the definition of engage is.

That's one appointment per month while on an activation programme

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2621 - 21/02/2024 20:23:44    2527442

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Funnily enough tho. . .you can become middle class by going to work and paying taxes. That fact seems lost on some."
Problem is for alot of the longterm unemployed the alternative is a job on the minimum wage. Which is actually less than you get on the social if you are a couple and have a few kids. If you go working in McDonald's in most other European countries you can earn enough that you could even afford to pay rent! If you want actually to own a house in this country you need an income well in excess of a grand a week. Most long term unemployed aren't going to get a job that pays that much, however many courses they go on.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11643 - 21/02/2024 21:33:19    2527455

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Replying To Viking66:  "There's a huge gap in this country between the richest 3% and the rest of the population. By GDP per capita we are the 3rd richest country in the world. But at the same time our average industrial wage is 550 euro. Pitifully small compared to most Northern European countries. We have more universal, as in not means tested, social welfare payments such as children's allowance also. The can't work won't work brigade need educated, but also the opportunity to earn a decent wage to incentivise them to work. Why work your ass off for 400 odd euro a week when that won't even pay the rent on a grotty hole for you and your family to live in?"
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-elcq/earningsandlabourcostsq12023finalq22023preliminaryestimates/


Where are you getting average industrial wage of 550 from??
It's in excess of €900 according to the CSO.
Comes to about €720 after tax (for a PAYE employee).

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5008 - 22/02/2024 10:15:15    2527502

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Replying To Viking66:  "Problem is for alot of the longterm unemployed the alternative is a job on the minimum wage. Which is actually less than you get on the social if you are a couple and have a few kids. If you go working in McDonald's in most other European countries you can earn enough that you could even afford to pay rent! If you want actually to own a house in this country you need an income well in excess of a grand a week. Most long term unemployed aren't going to get a job that pays that much, however many courses they go on."
You have to start somewhere tho. .

I've worked in all sorts of jobs, some for less than the minimum wage (yes, it would have been illegal at the time but I was happy to have it). I've emigrated, I've done part time study while working, I've taken pay cuts to move sector for longer term gain.

I don't think I'd be in a comparable situation right now if I sat on social welfare all my adult life and complained that the government were making me poor.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5008 - 22/02/2024 10:21:22    2527505

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Replying To cavanman47:  "https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-elcq/earningsandlabourcostsq12023finalq22023preliminaryestimates/


Where are you getting average industrial wage of 550 from??
It's in excess of €900 according to the CSO.
Comes to about €720 after tax (for a PAYE employee)."
That's an eye opener. I'd say they are including management all the way up to Board members to get that average. I was talking about take home pay but 720 euro take home is great money, and you would be able to afford the 300-400 euro a week rent or mortgage. Most people I know, including myself although I'm self employed, aren't earning anything like that unless they are management level.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11643 - 22/02/2024 12:37:06    2527533

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Replying To cavanman47:  "You have to start somewhere tho. .

I've worked in all sorts of jobs, some for less than the minimum wage (yes, it would have been illegal at the time but I was happy to have it). I've emigrated, I've done part time study while working, I've taken pay cuts to move sector for longer term gain.

I don't think I'd be in a comparable situation right now if I sat on social welfare all my adult life and complained that the government were making me poor."
Both scenarios deserve better, Whether it's you or the person on the dole, incredibly wealthy people and corporations have profited off it

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12110 - 22/02/2024 12:44:16    2527539

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Aside from Ireland specific problems anyway, capitalism requires wars and slavery to function so it's really not a gotcha to sneer at socialism or communism or whatever

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12110 - 22/02/2024 14:09:02    2527566

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