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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Rugadh Liam timpeall an chuinne ón Tigh Thomais, Bhí club amhrániocht thuas stairghre sna laethanta sin, An Goilín, Faoi cheannas an t-amhránaí Úi Rathach, tim Dennehy, Bhíos ag obair sa tigh sin ar dtús na 80í agus mise i mó deagoír. So b'feidir gur fuair tú pint den leann dubh Ó mo laimshe :-)"
Didn't realise you loved the native language. Can you let me know the numbers behind your assumption that the increase in Irish exempt students is down to immigration.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7885 - 19/02/2024 17:09:15    2527055

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "Didn't realise you loved the native language. Can you let me know the numbers behind your assumption that the increase in Irish exempt students is down to immigration."
There are no official breakdowns but I know from teachers that in their schools it is mostly children of migrant families who seek and get exemptions, Which is pretty logical would you not think?

It is now becoming more widespread and will lead to Irish going way of history if it continues to be a pattern.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2527 - 19/02/2024 17:22:38    2527059

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "There are no official breakdowns but I know from teachers that in their schools it is mostly children of migrant families who seek and get exemptions, Which is pretty logical would you not think?

It is now becoming more widespread and will lead to Irish going way of history if it continues to be a pattern."
Better to have 1 million learning, loving and speaking the language than batin it into 2 million who'll hate it, forget most of it a week after they finish school and would look at ya as if you had 2 heads if you said a word of Gaeilge to them.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1405 - 19/02/2024 18:56:21    2527071

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "There are no official breakdowns but I know from teachers that in their schools it is mostly children of migrant families who seek and get exemptions, Which is pretty logical would you not think?

It is now becoming more widespread and will lead to Irish going way of history if it continues to be a pattern."
Ah yeah of course you know from people who told you. I can tell you for a fact there are more Irish kids being exempt from our national language and it is getting easier to be allowed do resource classes during Irish.

I work in schools all over the West and North West and can see the kids and their nationalities so I am talking factually here. If our language dies it will be because of Irish people not migrant families. Anyone who says otherwise is talking out of their backside.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7885 - 19/02/2024 19:28:02    2527078

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Better to have 1 million learning, loving and speaking the language than batin it into 2 million who'll hate it, forget most of it a week after they finish school and would look at ya as if you had 2 heads if you said a word of Gaeilge to them."
The Department of Education is clueless on Irish. Stuck in the past. Won't listen to forward thinking people who want change.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7885 - 19/02/2024 19:50:23    2527081

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Democracy has only ever existed under an economy that allows free enterprise and private property. No socialist state has been a democracy.

Of course unbridled capitalism is anathema. Which is why we have trade unions and public services. Again, the first of which were banned under socialism, and the second of which were appalling messes. As any Pole or Russian of 40 or over will tell you. Which is why nobody votes for socialists anymore!"
You are still caught up in the early 20th century Barney with your ideas of what a socialist is. Bertie maybe stretched even the modern definition of socialism when he claimed he was one, although I supposed he satisfied one of your criteria insofar as he didn't have a bank account, but definitely socialism has evolved from where it was, just like everything else in life.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/dail-row-over-socialist-ahern-1.995233

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11736 - 19/02/2024 22:55:35    2527105

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Replying To Viking66:  "You are still caught up in the early 20th century Barney with your ideas of what a socialist is. Bertie maybe stretched even the modern definition of socialism when he claimed he was one, although I supposed he satisfied one of your criteria insofar as he didn't have a bank account, but definitely socialism has evolved from where it was, just like everything else in life.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/dail-row-over-socialist-ahern-1.995233"
People might not understand what socialism means, The concept itself has not changed, PBP are socialists because they believe in state ownership as the main factor in the economy.

SF, Labour, SDs are not socialists because they do not. They are what Americans used to call "tax and spend liberals."

Cuba is socialist, Sweden is not socialist. These are not difficult concepts to grasp. You maybe ought to have done a history and philosophy model along with social sciences.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2527 - 20/02/2024 00:09:19    2527117

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Anyone who thinks Ireland will be United under a socialist model is off their heads. It will be a federal state in the EU obviously.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11227 - 20/02/2024 07:44:27    2527127

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "People might not understand what socialism means, The concept itself has not changed, PBP are socialists because they believe in state ownership as the main factor in the economy.

SF, Labour, SDs are not socialists because they do not. They are what Americans used to call "tax and spend liberals."

Cuba is socialist, Sweden is not socialist. These are not difficult concepts to grasp. You maybe ought to have done a history and philosophy model along with social sciences."
Cuba is Communist.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11736 - 20/02/2024 07:46:48    2527129

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "People might not understand what socialism means, The concept itself has not changed, PBP are socialists because they believe in state ownership as the main factor in the economy.

SF, Labour, SDs are not socialists because they do not. They are what Americans used to call "tax and spend liberals."

Cuba is socialist, Sweden is not socialist. These are not difficult concepts to grasp. You maybe ought to have done a history and philosophy model along with social sciences."
I've spent my whole life studying history. And have been caught up in postwar cold War and post cold war history to a large degree on account of my father's job and then my own life choices!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11736 - 20/02/2024 07:48:23    2527130

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Flaker, barney can eother of ye produce links to stats that back up what ye're saying?
And id 100% agree with flaker on this.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3499 - 20/02/2024 13:19:00    2527186

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Flaker, barney can eother of ye produce links to stats that back up what ye're saying?
And id 100% agree with flaker on this."
I have the numbers from the schools I work with. Over 30 schools in total on the West Coast. Official figures are released annually but it doesn't break it down that well. In all the schools I am involved with the numbers are increasing for Irish kids being exempt from the language, especially those coming into 1st year.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7885 - 20/02/2024 14:16:34    2527198

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "People might not understand what socialism means, The concept itself has not changed, PBP are socialists because they believe in state ownership as the main factor in the economy.

SF, Labour, SDs are not socialists because they do not. They are what Americans used to call "tax and spend liberals."

Cuba is socialist, Sweden is not socialist. These are not difficult concepts to grasp. You maybe ought to have done a history and philosophy model along with social sciences."
I can hold my own with anyone on history.

The point is you can have socialist policies within a free market system.

Economic and social policies are completely independent of eachother and that's where it differs from communism.

James Larkin and Connolly are founding fathers of our labour party. They were socialists.

Social democrats founded by Roisin shorthall and Catherine Murphy. Socialists.

All Nordic countries are socialist in the free market system. Not Communist.

An argument can be made for France.

We're basically falling out over the difference between collective ownership and state ownership.

You can have a socialist taxation policy without taking private land.

Definitions and ideologies evolve over time.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2629 - 20/02/2024 15:57:44    2527218

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "I have the numbers from the schools I work with. Over 30 schools in total on the West Coast. Official figures are released annually but it doesn't break it down that well. In all the schools I am involved with the numbers are increasing for Irish kids being exempt from the language, especially those coming into 1st year."
Surely the blame lies with their parents? I've very little Irish and most of it wouldn't get let on this forum but I encourage the 4 kids to speak it as much as possible. They all struggled with it at the start and therefore hated it. A bit like when they started hurling. Now they get a buzz out of it. I'm so glad I kept them at it.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11736 - 20/02/2024 17:37:20    2527241

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "I can hold my own with anyone on history.

The point is you can have socialist policies within a free market system.

Economic and social policies are completely independent of eachother and that's where it differs from communism.

James Larkin and Connolly are founding fathers of our labour party. They were socialists.

Social democrats founded by Roisin shorthall and Catherine Murphy. Socialists.

All Nordic countries are socialist in the free market system. Not Communist.

An argument can be made for France.

We're basically falling out over the difference between collective ownership and state ownership.

You can have a socialist taxation policy without taking private land.

Definitions and ideologies evolve over time."
Socialism is an ideal. No more or less than that. Whether you are a socialist or not depends on your view of what way the world's wealth, and in particular earned wealth, should be distributed, vis a vis capital and labour.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11736 - 20/02/2024 17:42:50    2527244

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "I have the numbers from the schools I work with. Over 30 schools in total on the West Coast. Official figures are released annually but it doesn't break it down that well. In all the schools I am involved with the numbers are increasing for Irish kids being exempt from the language, especially those coming into 1st year."
Work with in what capacity btw?
Id see it just from reports but yeah its increased a lot even since i finished school decade and half or so ago

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3499 - 20/02/2024 17:56:52    2527249

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Replying To Viking66:  "Socialism is an ideal. No more or less than that. Whether you are a socialist or not depends on your view of what way the world's wealth, and in particular earned wealth, should be distributed, vis a vis capital and labour."
A bit like Christianity....an ideal that no one tries to implement....

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1405 - 20/02/2024 18:47:49    2527259

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Replying To Viking66:  "Socialism is an ideal. No more or less than that. Whether you are a socialist or not depends on your view of what way the world's wealth, and in particular earned wealth, should be distributed, vis a vis capital and labour."
I think you've hit the nail on the head there in terms of how Ireland's 'socialist' political parties lean.

The earned wealth in this country is more directly distributed to those who don't earn than in any other country in the western world. (i.e. we have high social welfare and under-investment in services as a result).

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5010 - 20/02/2024 19:16:46    2527263

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Replying To cavanman47:  "I think you've hit the nail on the head there in terms of how Ireland's 'socialist' political parties lean.

The earned wealth in this country is more directly distributed to those who don't earn than in any other country in the western world. (i.e. we have high social welfare and under-investment in services as a result)."
Landlords

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12116 - 20/02/2024 19:25:45    2527266

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Replying To Viking66:  "Surely the blame lies with their parents? I've very little Irish and most of it wouldn't get let on this forum but I encourage the 4 kids to speak it as much as possible. They all struggled with it at the start and therefore hated it. A bit like when they started hurling. Now they get a buzz out of it. I'm so glad I kept them at it."
Everyone can take some blame. Laying it on parents is half fair but won't solve anything. The vast majority of people would be fluent in Irish if they approach it in a different way starting from junior infants.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7885 - 20/02/2024 19:51:21    2527270

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