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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "I don't think you know too much about socialism!

Check out the history of the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics for a start.

Socialism means state ownership and the abolition of private property. Nothing else."
You lost everyone at Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics . I am still awaiting your reply to my post about exemptions for Irish in secondary schools.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7885 - 19/02/2024 10:00:08    2526878

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Socialism was described as the gateway to communism by Marx :-)"
Where oh where is our James Connolly ?
Where oh where is that gallant man ?
He is gone to organise the Union
That working men they may yet be free.

baire (Galway) - Posts: 1785 - 19/02/2024 10:04:43    2526880

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Socialism was described as the gateway to communism by Marx :-)"
Liam Weldon, Dark Horse on the Wind.
An bhfuil an ceirnín seo agat? Duine cumasach agus amhránaí den scoth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti1CKgvMbXo

baire (Galway) - Posts: 1785 - 19/02/2024 10:17:19    2526884

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Replying To Viking66:  "That's Communism Barney. I've an Honours degree in a Social Science and got distinctions in A and S level Economics at school. I know what Socialism is. And I'm not talking about media generalisations."
I see your social sciences degree and raise my doctorate :-)

I will indulge you. Who were the first people to use the word "socialism" and what they mean by it?

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2527 - 19/02/2024 11:57:13    2526913

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Replying To baire:  "Liam Weldon, Dark Horse on the Wind.
An bhfuil an ceirnín seo agat? Duine cumasach agus amhránaí den scoth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti1CKgvMbXo"
Níl an ceirnín agam ach chualais é ag canadh an tamhrán sin i Teach Thomais na blianta fada o shin. Ar dtús an 80i, Dia Linn!

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2527 - 19/02/2024 12:00:06    2526916

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Jesus lads will let's compare Blue Peter badges.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7885 - 19/02/2024 12:36:32    2526928

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "I don't think you know too much about socialism!

Check out the history of the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics for a start.

Socialism means state ownership and the abolition of private property. Nothing else."
Interesting take

You do know Russia calls itself a democracy these days. . .

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5010 - 19/02/2024 12:53:06    2526935

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "I see your social sciences degree and raise my doctorate :-)

I will indulge you. Who were the first people to use the word "socialism" and what they mean by it?"
Socialism as defined back in the late 19th and early 20th centuries by many different people and more importantly in many different ways, has very little relevance in this day and age. And perhaps more importantly very little relevance in that day and age either, as Socialism in its academic form was impossible in the real world. Perhaps, surprisingly, GBSs takes on it in the 20s most accurately reflected his time in the real world.
As I posted earlier my take on it is Real Socialism, as in something that can work in the real world, right now, revolves around equality of opportunity, and therefore education, and equal rights to access housing and health that aren't dependent on rate of income. Economics wise I'd lean towards JMK rather than AS, which sits badly with most of my family but so be it. Real world workable Socialism is a left leaning hybrid of what academics proposed, which like most things academics propose just doesn't translate into real life too well Barney. Likewise pure capitalism as described in academic works doesn't exist either as it tended to lead to revolutions, which scared the bejaysus out of the then capitalists when it happened as they realised that if they didn't throw the big dog a bone that dog would end up eating them ;-)

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11736 - 19/02/2024 13:25:03    2526956

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Socialism was described as the gateway to communism by Marx :-)"
Absolutely it was.

I would argue that we're debating the evolution of thought though.

Most western democracies have some form of social democratic party, none of Which are advocating communism.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2629 - 19/02/2024 13:56:50    2526969

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "It's common in GAA too unfortunately, especially if some supporters are intoxicated. Do you go to as many soccer games as GAA games?"
I mostly either go to GAA (mostly Gaelic football) and Munster Rugby. But I do support Cork City and Manchester United in soccer, been to Old Trafford a few times which it is what you'd expect from an English atmosphere but it was my first League of Ireland game, I was very surprised that the fans in LOI were just as bad as premier league fans.

DuhallowRed (Cork) - Posts: 267 - 19/02/2024 14:14:03    2526975

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Very interesting thread, I once heard socialists described as people that have nothing and want to share it with everybody!

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2739 - 19/02/2024 14:42:53    2526988

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Replying To Viking66:  "Socialism as defined back in the late 19th and early 20th centuries by many different people and more importantly in many different ways, has very little relevance in this day and age. And perhaps more importantly very little relevance in that day and age either, as Socialism in its academic form was impossible in the real world. Perhaps, surprisingly, GBSs takes on it in the 20s most accurately reflected his time in the real world.
As I posted earlier my take on it is Real Socialism, as in something that can work in the real world, right now, revolves around equality of opportunity, and therefore education, and equal rights to access housing and health that aren't dependent on rate of income. Economics wise I'd lean towards JMK rather than AS, which sits badly with most of my family but so be it. Real world workable Socialism is a left leaning hybrid of what academics proposed, which like most things academics propose just doesn't translate into real life too well Barney. Likewise pure capitalism as described in academic works doesn't exist either as it tended to lead to revolutions, which scared the bejaysus out of the then capitalists when it happened as they realised that if they didn't throw the big dog a bone that dog would end up eating them ;-)"
Super post. Great fan on Keynes myself.

Solutions were everywhere here in 2011 and fg did everything they could to make it worse.

Either they didn't care, or nobody in the party ever read a book.

I'll let you decide which.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2629 - 19/02/2024 14:51:00    2526994

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "Very interesting thread, I once heard socialists described as people that have nothing and want to share it with everybody!"
In our family the saying goes "If you are not Red when you are 18 you have no heart. If you are still Red when you are 30 you have no brain". I'm the brainless minority;-)

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11736 - 19/02/2024 14:58:20    2526998

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Good man Viking, you managed to avoid giving a definition. Or rather you know what it is!

I see you referencing George Bernard Shaw. Well, there you go. Proves my point, He was a socialist and he supported Stalin. Also a thundering eijit, which helps in still retaining a naive beliefs into adulthood, Look at the Dáil!

Equality of opportunity is a concept much older than socialism. Goes back to the thinkers who influenced the growth of democracy. None of whom were socialists,

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2527 - 19/02/2024 15:09:55    2527004

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Good man Viking, you managed to avoid giving a definition. Or rather you know what it is!

I see you referencing George Bernard Shaw. Well, there you go. Proves my point, He was a socialist and he supported Stalin. Also a thundering eijit, which helps in still retaining a naive beliefs into adulthood, Look at the Dáil!

Equality of opportunity is a concept much older than socialism. Goes back to the thinkers who influenced the growth of democracy. None of whom were socialists,"
They were the original real socialists. If real Capitalists had their way there would be no such thing as democracy. One man one vote is a complete anathema to a Capitalist- you can't let the plebs have any say in government, they might want to get educated and realise how badly treated they are! And GBS saw things how they were in the 20s and 30s, when naked capitalism pre and post WW1 had nearly ruined the world. As regards his views on Stalin, and Mussolini it has to be said, he spent a large chunk of his time winding people up and playing devil's advocate even. I never met the man obviously, but I think he had pretty good values at the back of it all.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11736 - 19/02/2024 15:24:29    2527007

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Good man Viking, you managed to avoid giving a definition. Or rather you know what it is!

I see you referencing George Bernard Shaw. Well, there you go. Proves my point, He was a socialist and he supported Stalin. Also a thundering eijit, which helps in still retaining a naive beliefs into adulthood, Look at the Dáil!

Equality of opportunity is a concept much older than socialism. Goes back to the thinkers who influenced the growth of democracy. None of whom were socialists,"
They were the original real socialists. If real Capitalists had their way there would be no such thing as democracy. One man one vote is a complete anathema to a Capitalist- you can't let the plebs have any say in government, they might want to get educated and realise how badly treated they are! And GBS saw things how they were in the 20s and 30s, when naked capitalism pre and post WW1 had nearly ruined the world. As regards his views on Stalin, and Mussolini it has to be said, he spent a large chunk of his time winding people up and playing devil's advocate even. I never met the man obviously, but I think he had pretty good values at the back of it all.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11736 - 19/02/2024 15:25:05    2527008

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Níl an ceirnín agam ach chualais é ag canadh an tamhrán sin i Teach Thomais na blianta fada o shin. Ar dtús an 80i, Dia Linn!"
Tá amhráin bhreátha air, Dark Horse on the Wind, Via Extasia agus cinn eile.
Bhínn féin isteach i dTeach Thomáis fadó freisin ach casadh Liam orm i dtosach sa Brazen Head sna 70 óidí. Is cuimhneach liom é ag rá linn agus muid an-óg, yeese fellas want to sow your wild oats, I'm trying to reap mine! D'athraigh sé féin is a theaghlach as na Líbéirtí go Baile Fhormaid áit a mbíodh garraí aige agus d'fhásadh sé torthaí agus glasraí ann.
Bhí agus tá an-mheas agam air.

baire (Galway) - Posts: 1785 - 19/02/2024 15:32:57    2527011

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Replying To baire:  "Tá amhráin bhreátha air, Dark Horse on the Wind, Via Extasia agus cinn eile.
Bhínn féin isteach i dTeach Thomáis fadó freisin ach casadh Liam orm i dtosach sa Brazen Head sna 70 óidí. Is cuimhneach liom é ag rá linn agus muid an-óg, yeese fellas want to sow your wild oats, I'm trying to reap mine! D'athraigh sé féin is a theaghlach as na Líbéirtí go Baile Fhormaid áit a mbíodh garraí aige agus d'fhásadh sé torthaí agus glasraí ann.
Bhí agus tá an-mheas agam air."
Rugadh Liam timpeall an chuinne ón Tigh Thomais, Bhí club amhrániocht thuas stairghre sna laethanta sin, An Goilín, Faoi cheannas an t-amhránaí Úi Rathach, tim Dennehy, Bhíos ag obair sa tigh sin ar dtús na 80í agus mise i mó deagoír. So b'feidir gur fuair tú pint den leann dubh Ó mo laimshe :-)

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2527 - 19/02/2024 15:42:51    2527014

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Replying To baire:  "Liam Weldon, Dark Horse on the Wind.
An bhfuil an ceirnín seo agat? Duine cumasach agus amhránaí den scoth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti1CKgvMbXo"
Great song from Ballyer

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11736 - 19/02/2024 16:18:28    2527027

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Replying To Viking66:  "They were the original real socialists. If real Capitalists had their way there would be no such thing as democracy. One man one vote is a complete anathema to a Capitalist- you can't let the plebs have any say in government, they might want to get educated and realise how badly treated they are! And GBS saw things how they were in the 20s and 30s, when naked capitalism pre and post WW1 had nearly ruined the world. As regards his views on Stalin, and Mussolini it has to be said, he spent a large chunk of his time winding people up and playing devil's advocate even. I never met the man obviously, but I think he had pretty good values at the back of it all."
Democracy has only ever existed under an economy that allows free enterprise and private property. No socialist state has been a democracy.

Of course unbridled capitalism is anathema. Which is why we have trade unions and public services. Again, the first of which were banned under socialism, and the second of which were appalling messes. As any Pole or Russian of 40 or over will tell you. Which is why nobody votes for socialists anymore!

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2527 - 19/02/2024 16:39:32    2527038

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