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Replying To Bon:  "If a United Ireland was to happen do you think the loyalist types would just take that lying down? There'd be murder again."
So the threat of force by the UVF that led to partition and the non implementation of the home rule bill is still there and that's your fear? who are the terrorists now and who have they always been?
If people are so happy being British then they can always move to Britain, were they will be identified as Irish people as soon as they speak because that is in reality what they are.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2739 - 16/02/2024 16:01:25    2526378

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Replying To SaffronDon:  "Just allow them to continue their drug dealing like they do in Drogheda, Dublin, Limerick etc and they'll fall into line like the rest. Loyalists without British intelligence in a conflict will be about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike."
Jamie Bwyson and Jim Allister are their intellectual leaders!

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2739 - 16/02/2024 16:07:06    2526379

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Replying To DuhallowRed:  "Socialism as been tried in other countries and it shows time and time again it doesn't work"
Capitalism is only marginally better.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2629 - 16/02/2024 16:34:39    2526382

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "We all have welfare states though.

Even American survey data suggests their population are in favour of more socialist policies when that word is removed from the language.

FDRs new deal was a socialist policy.

The time that's referenced as America's golden age is when government policy was furthest left.

Taxation and distribution is just as important as the ownership of the means of production.

You should see some of the graphs detailing decreases in taxation and regulations, CEO pay and poverty from to 50s through Reaganomics era to present.

France, Belgium, UK were all the same in the post war era"
Socialism means no private ownership of property or business. America is pretty big on both. Ireland will plummit into economic depression if we tried to seize the means of production. I'm glad you brought up FDR though. He imprisoned more than 100,000 Japanese Americans for simply being of Japanese origin. No trial or any evidence to show any of them had any loyalty to Japan. The New Deal itself is debatable. It was largely funded by imposing taxes on goods and services (we have it as VAT here). These taxes affect those on the lowest incomes the hardest. It also prolonged unemployment by making it more expensive for businesses to expand and hire.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 16/02/2024 17:02:24    2526385

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Socialism means no private ownership of property or business. America is pretty big on both. Ireland will plummit into economic depression if we tried to seize the means of production. I'm glad you brought up FDR though. He imprisoned more than 100,000 Japanese Americans for simply being of Japanese origin. No trial or any evidence to show any of them had any loyalty to Japan. The New Deal itself is debatable. It was largely funded by imposing taxes on goods and services (we have it as VAT here). These taxes affect those on the lowest incomes the hardest. It also prolonged unemployment by making it more expensive for businesses to expand and hire."
The definition of socialism is the collective ownership of the means of production.

A trade union in other words. Are you opposed to those?

You've defined communism.

Do you think America's poor are better off in the 50s or now?

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2629 - 16/02/2024 17:35:20    2526391

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Replying To DuhallowRed:  "Socialism as been tried in other countries and it shows time and time again it doesn't work"
It got the UK back on its feet after WW2. Produced an NHS that actually functioned. Everyone got reasonable education.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11736 - 16/02/2024 18:44:05    2526399

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "So the threat of force by the UVF that led to partition and the non implementation of the home rule bill is still there and that's your fear? who are the terrorists now and who have they always been?
If people are so happy being British then they can always move to Britain, were they will be identified as Irish people as soon as they speak because that is in reality what they are."
Sure because people are just going to move back to Britain just like that, that's realistic.
Personally it wouldn't bother me one way or another about a United Ireland, but I don't think most people ever want a return to the violence.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1899 - 16/02/2024 19:30:07    2526403

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "The definition of socialism is the collective ownership of the means of production.

A trade union in other words. Are you opposed to those?

You've defined communism.

Do you think America's poor are better off in the 50s or now?"
Same thing. No private company will accept it so the only option is for the Government to seize their property. Americas poor are better off now. You have to be delusional to think life in the 40s was better than now.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 16/02/2024 19:34:35    2526404

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Socialism means no private ownership of property or business. America is pretty big on both. Ireland will plummit into economic depression if we tried to seize the means of production. I'm glad you brought up FDR though. He imprisoned more than 100,000 Japanese Americans for simply being of Japanese origin. No trial or any evidence to show any of them had any loyalty to Japan. The New Deal itself is debatable. It was largely funded by imposing taxes on goods and services (we have it as VAT here). These taxes affect those on the lowest incomes the hardest. It also prolonged unemployment by making it more expensive for businesses to expand and hire."
You havent a notion of what socialism is.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3499 - 16/02/2024 20:40:05    2526412

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Replying To tireoghainabu:  "We can all read, no need to post your reply three times."
He just can't make a point- he has to ram his point down our throats. Hence him posting it three times.

bruffgael (Limerick) - Posts: 141 - 16/02/2024 20:54:38    2526414

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Replying To bruffgael:  "He just can't make a point- he has to ram his point down our throats. Hence him posting it three times."
Usually an IT issue tbh

points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 238 - 16/02/2024 21:36:29    2526418

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Part of the issue is that "socialism" nowadays is a word with no fixed meaning. It covers anything from repressive dictatorships to fantastic free countries such as Sweden, Norway, Canada, Iceland etc, which I can tell you are better places to live in than either Ireland or Britain (apart from the GAA).

Anyone with a "belief" that "nationalisation is best" is an ideologue and an extremist. Equally, anyone with a belief that "the free market is best" is also an ideologue and an extremist.

The boring, middle-of-the-road reality is that a mixed economy is best. The state is good at some things (haven't noticed even the most ardent right-winger advocating that armies should be privatised, or that all roads should be privatised and tolled); terrible at other things (I don't want to buy a car made by the government). And conversely.

The hard right and the hard right have one thing in common - a tendency to elevate their policies to quasi-dogma, and an inability to think outside their herd bubble.

We need a bit of nationalisation and to accept that there is a role for the state. We also need plenty of private enterprise and to accept that they too have an important role. Problems start when, through ideological rigidity, societies start requiring state or private actors to do that which they are manifestly rubbish at. Such as governments making cars (Trabant, British Leyland) or refrigerators; or private companies (who exist primarily to make shareholders rich) being forced to carry out altruistic roles, such as PSO (public service obligations) duties - e.g., trying to force rail companies to service sparsely-populated routes.

Moderation and pragmatism are key; not fixed-opinion ideologues on statist or free market high horses hurling insults at each other.

points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 238 - 16/02/2024 22:02:31    2526422

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Whatever about the attitudes to partition further south we in Donegal only know too well what a disaster it has been for the county, We have been cut off from our natural hinterlands with one road connecting us to the rest of the Republic making us virtually an island completely hindering our development.The sooner it can be got rid of the better for us here.Whether in a united Ireland the government would be Socialist,Social Democratic or Christian Democratic etc wouldn't worry me as long as it would be a democracy and could be changed at elections.

gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 1056 - 17/02/2024 11:16:57    2526451

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Replying To gunman:  "Whatever about the attitudes to partition further south we in Donegal only know too well what a disaster it has been for the county, We have been cut off from our natural hinterlands with one road connecting us to the rest of the Republic making us virtually an island completely hindering our development.The sooner it can be got rid of the better for us here.Whether in a united Ireland the government would be Socialist,Social Democratic or Christian Democratic etc wouldn't worry me as long as it would be a democracy and could be changed at elections."
Absolutely! The fact that the North has a different currency further compounds the issue. Donegal remains the forgotten county with very little industry. People have to go to Galway for any serious health issues, as Letterkenny is inadequate. 32 county republic would benefit Donegal as regards tourism, infrastructure, jobs, healthcare and everything else!! The Mica issue is an absolute disaster!

Ryanteam (Cork) - Posts: 214 - 17/02/2024 13:01:24    2526466

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Replying To gunman:  "Whatever about the attitudes to partition further south we in Donegal only know too well what a disaster it has been for the county, We have been cut off from our natural hinterlands with one road connecting us to the rest of the Republic making us virtually an island completely hindering our development.The sooner it can be got rid of the better for us here.Whether in a united Ireland the government would be Socialist,Social Democratic or Christian Democratic etc wouldn't worry me as long as it would be a democracy and could be changed at elections."
I always find Donegal have more in common with Glasgow than they do with Dublin. So many Celtic supporters in that county.

Ollie2 (Louth) - Posts: 782 - 17/02/2024 15:06:43    2526483

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Replying To Ollie2:  "I always find Donegal have more in common with Glasgow than they do with Dublin. So many Celtic supporters in that county."
What do you want them to do, support Dublin?

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 17/02/2024 15:39:00    2526490

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Replying To SaffronDon:  "What do you want them to do, support Dublin?"
Do you not support the Dubs?

Ollie2 (Louth) - Posts: 782 - 17/02/2024 15:46:41    2526492

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Replying To KillingFields:  "You havent a notion of what socialism is."
Sure. I'm the future socialist governement of Ireland will be more than happy for American companies to continue operating in Ireland and making profit.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 17/02/2024 15:48:33    2526493

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Replying To Ollie2:  "Do you not support the Dubs?"
Usually anybody bar Dublin or Kerry, for the good of the game

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 17/02/2024 16:02:45    2526495

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Replying To SaffronDon:  "Usually anybody bar Dublin or Kerry, for the good of the game"
Would you support Down and Derry?

Ollie2 (Louth) - Posts: 782 - 17/02/2024 17:12:11    2526509

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