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Replying To BarneyGrant: "There are more Irish people leaving than returning. This is not rocket science. There is a reason the % of population born overseas is steadily increasing, way beyond levels in ANY other EU state.
If you think that is healthy for any society then fair enough. If you think Ireland is no more than an industrial estate and financial centre, likewise.
Being against all of that bizarrely defines one as "far right" now. When I was younger it was a leftist position." I agree with all of that Barney except for the last line. I don't think immigration was ever really a left/right issue, except where its been objected to on racist grounds. I still associate the far right with the 3rd Reich, Germany for pure bred Aryans etc etc.
The issue is complicated though. Firstly nearly no economy in Europe has grown at the rate ours has. That's not only stretched our services due to poor planning at government level, but really stretched our human resources to keep up. If there wasn't the demand for workers, especially skilled ones in healthcare and menial ones in many poorly paid sectors like hospitality, we wouldn't have had anywhere near the inward migration we have had. Basically put, our economic growth has outstripped our population growth.
We also have, and have always had, a fairly large number of "can't work won't work " types in the country. If more of these lads worked, there'd be less demand for some inward migration.
And because of our disproportionately large inward investment, multinationals etc, your "industrial estate and financial centre" scenario, and as we will likely be even more so going forwards as the other main English speaking country in Europe is no longer in the EU, our countrys economy on paper looks bigger/better than it actually is for most of our population in reality. On the ground. This is attracting lads around the world to move here, even though for many born here it's just an illusion.
Finally, because our "great" wealth is so poorly distributed, with most of it concentrated in relatively few hands at the top of the tree, this is exacerbating the tensions in poorer areas as regards immigrants, as many in these poorer areas are struggling to get houses, get decent education for their kids, get access to proper healthcare, get decently paid jobs, a better quality of life you could say, as it is.
As you probably can tell Barney I'm still very much left of centre in my economic, social and political outlook. But I'm also a realist. Globalisation is a reality, driven by ease of travel, better access to information due to the Internet, and for many in poorer parts of the world the goal of financial security and/or wealth/quality of life. The problem if you are "small c" conservative, as I would be myself btw, is that leaves you with 2 basic choices. You can close/restrict your borders and suffer the longterm economic pain caused by being outside of regional/global markets, like North Korea for an extreme example where life hasn't changed much since the 1940s, or embrace it and try to make it work as best you can, which is the position where most other countries in the world have been heading since the 2nd World War. I don't particularly like change tbh, but I can see why it's necessary, and in some instances unavoidable, given the alternatives. Where we have fell down as a country is that the people running the place have wanted the bigger cake that globalisation and right wing Adam Smith economic policies brings, but are now wholly unprepared for the cake sinking in the middle as the oven hasn't been improved to cook it. And immigration is just the tip of the problems we now face as a result of that economic and social mismanagement.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13070 - 04/01/2024 10:15:11
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Absolute British boxing robbery last night in Liverpool. Natasha Jonas was beaten from start to finish yet got a split decision victory from the three scammers at ringside. Mayer might as well have been a punch bag for all the attention she got from the British commentators as she beat up Jonas. It was as if they were all briefed on how to commentate on this one or else they all had their own tinted glasses on. The American reaction tells a very different story.
British ref Howard Foster allowing Jonas to hold onto her opponent just to try and land shots but Mayer was told to break when she did the same. Despite it being a lively, enjoyable watch at the time, the running of the event was like something out of the Guy Ritchie film Snatch. Rotten to it's core and why many people turn away from an otherwise exciting sport.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2445 - 21/01/2024 10:39:05
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Replying To Viking66: "I agree with all of that Barney except for the last line. I don't think immigration was ever really a left/right issue, except where its been objected to on racist grounds. I still associate the far right with the 3rd Reich, Germany for pure bred Aryans etc etc.
The issue is complicated though. Firstly nearly no economy in Europe has grown at the rate ours has. That's not only stretched our services due to poor planning at government level, but really stretched our human resources to keep up. If there wasn't the demand for workers, especially skilled ones in healthcare and menial ones in many poorly paid sectors like hospitality, we wouldn't have had anywhere near the inward migration we have had. Basically put, our economic growth has outstripped our population growth.
We also have, and have always had, a fairly large number of "can't work won't work " types in the country. If more of these lads worked, there'd be less demand for some inward migration.
And because of our disproportionately large inward investment, multinationals etc, your "industrial estate and financial centre" scenario, and as we will likely be even more so going forwards as the other main English speaking country in Europe is no longer in the EU, our countrys economy on paper looks bigger/better than it actually is for most of our population in reality. On the ground. This is attracting lads around the world to move here, even though for many born here it's just an illusion.
Finally, because our "great" wealth is so poorly distributed, with most of it concentrated in relatively few hands at the top of the tree, this is exacerbating the tensions in poorer areas as regards immigrants, as many in these poorer areas are struggling to get houses, get decent education for their kids, get access to proper healthcare, get decently paid jobs, a better quality of life you could say, as it is.
As you probably can tell Barney I'm still very much left of centre in my economic, social and political outlook. But I'm also a realist. Globalisation is a reality, driven by ease of travel, better access to information due to the Internet, and for many in poorer parts of the world the goal of financial security and/or wealth/quality of life. The problem if you are "small c" conservative, as I would be myself btw, is that leaves you with 2 basic choices. You can close/restrict your borders and suffer the longterm economic pain caused by being outside of regional/global markets, like North Korea for an extreme example where life hasn't changed much since the 1940s, or embrace it and try to make it work as best you can, which is the position where most other countries in the world have been heading since the 2nd World War. I don't particularly like change tbh, but I can see why it's necessary, and in some instances unavoidable, given the alternatives. Where we have fell down as a country is that the people running the place have wanted the bigger cake that globalisation and right wing Adam Smith economic policies brings, but are now wholly unprepared for the cake sinking in the middle as the oven hasn't been improved to cook it. And immigration is just the tip of the problems we now face as a result of that economic and social mismanagement." That's a hell of a post
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2961 - 21/01/2024 11:02:45
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Replying To Viking66: "I agree with all of that Barney except for the last line. I don't think immigration was ever really a left/right issue, except where its been objected to on racist grounds. I still associate the far right with the 3rd Reich, Germany for pure bred Aryans etc etc.
The issue is complicated though. Firstly nearly no economy in Europe has grown at the rate ours has. That's not only stretched our services due to poor planning at government level, but really stretched our human resources to keep up. If there wasn't the demand for workers, especially skilled ones in healthcare and menial ones in many poorly paid sectors like hospitality, we wouldn't have had anywhere near the inward migration we have had. Basically put, our economic growth has outstripped our population growth.
We also have, and have always had, a fairly large number of "can't work won't work " types in the country. If more of these lads worked, there'd be less demand for some inward migration.
And because of our disproportionately large inward investment, multinationals etc, your "industrial estate and financial centre" scenario, and as we will likely be even more so going forwards as the other main English speaking country in Europe is no longer in the EU, our countrys economy on paper looks bigger/better than it actually is for most of our population in reality. On the ground. This is attracting lads around the world to move here, even though for many born here it's just an illusion.
Finally, because our "great" wealth is so poorly distributed, with most of it concentrated in relatively few hands at the top of the tree, this is exacerbating the tensions in poorer areas as regards immigrants, as many in these poorer areas are struggling to get houses, get decent education for their kids, get access to proper healthcare, get decently paid jobs, a better quality of life you could say, as it is.
As you probably can tell Barney I'm still very much left of centre in my economic, social and political outlook. But I'm also a realist. Globalisation is a reality, driven by ease of travel, better access to information due to the Internet, and for many in poorer parts of the world the goal of financial security and/or wealth/quality of life. The problem if you are "small c" conservative, as I would be myself btw, is that leaves you with 2 basic choices. You can close/restrict your borders and suffer the longterm economic pain caused by being outside of regional/global markets, like North Korea for an extreme example where life hasn't changed much since the 1940s, or embrace it and try to make it work as best you can, which is the position where most other countries in the world have been heading since the 2nd World War. I don't particularly like change tbh, but I can see why it's necessary, and in some instances unavoidable, given the alternatives. Where we have fell down as a country is that the people running the place have wanted the bigger cake that globalisation and right wing Adam Smith economic policies brings, but are now wholly unprepared for the cake sinking in the middle as the oven hasn't been improved to cook it. And immigration is just the tip of the problems we now face as a result of that economic and social mismanagement." one hell of a post is right, I think it sums up the man beside the post more than anything else
tonydoranfan (Wexford) - Posts: 550 - 21/01/2024 11:13:05
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Replying To Viking66: "I agree with all of that Barney except for the last line. I don't think immigration was ever really a left/right issue, except where its been objected to on racist grounds. I still associate the far right with the 3rd Reich, Germany for pure bred Aryans etc etc.
The issue is complicated though. Firstly nearly no economy in Europe has grown at the rate ours has. That's not only stretched our services due to poor planning at government level, but really stretched our human resources to keep up. If there wasn't the demand for workers, especially skilled ones in healthcare and menial ones in many poorly paid sectors like hospitality, we wouldn't have had anywhere near the inward migration we have had. Basically put, our economic growth has outstripped our population growth.
We also have, and have always had, a fairly large number of "can't work won't work " types in the country. If more of these lads worked, there'd be less demand for some inward migration.
And because of our disproportionately large inward investment, multinationals etc, your "industrial estate and financial centre" scenario, and as we will likely be even more so going forwards as the other main English speaking country in Europe is no longer in the EU, our countrys economy on paper looks bigger/better than it actually is for most of our population in reality. On the ground. This is attracting lads around the world to move here, even though for many born here it's just an illusion.
Finally, because our "great" wealth is so poorly distributed, with most of it concentrated in relatively few hands at the top of the tree, this is exacerbating the tensions in poorer areas as regards immigrants, as many in these poorer areas are struggling to get houses, get decent education for their kids, get access to proper healthcare, get decently paid jobs, a better quality of life you could say, as it is.
As you probably can tell Barney I'm still very much left of centre in my economic, social and political outlook. But I'm also a realist. Globalisation is a reality, driven by ease of travel, better access to information due to the Internet, and for many in poorer parts of the world the goal of financial security and/or wealth/quality of life. The problem if you are "small c" conservative, as I would be myself btw, is that leaves you with 2 basic choices. You can close/restrict your borders and suffer the longterm economic pain caused by being outside of regional/global markets, like North Korea for an extreme example where life hasn't changed much since the 1940s, or embrace it and try to make it work as best you can, which is the position where most other countries in the world have been heading since the 2nd World War. I don't particularly like change tbh, but I can see why it's necessary, and in some instances unavoidable, given the alternatives. Where we have fell down as a country is that the people running the place have wanted the bigger cake that globalisation and right wing Adam Smith economic policies brings, but are now wholly unprepared for the cake sinking in the middle as the oven hasn't been improved to cook it. And immigration is just the tip of the problems we now face as a result of that economic and social mismanagement." That is some post and summation of - to me -, the situation in the country today. I also think that the majority of people in the country, or should I say thinking people in the country would broadly agree with you but lack the ability to express themselves as eloquently as you have in this post.
Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 1093 - 21/01/2024 12:33:32
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Replying To tonydoranfan: "one hell of a post is right, I think it sums up the man beside the post more than anything else" What do you think yourself about the issue Tonydoranfan?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13070 - 21/01/2024 13:23:51
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Replying To Viking66: "What do you think yourself about the issue Tonydoranfan?" I'd largely agree with your post, Viking, but 2 things I'd say:
1. The notion that the benefits of large scale multinationals are just an illusion to the majority is nonsense. The indirect benefits to the economy of their investment in this country are immeasurable. There are welders and pipe fitters taking home a grand a week working (indirectly) for these companies. Restaurants, coffee shops, garages, small landlords, B+Bs etc all benefit from having large employers in their vicinity.
2. Irish people have travelled to the 4 corners of the globe for nearly 2 centuries. We've seen what has happened when we've been welcomed (we practically built North America and Australia) and we've seen what's happened when we've been ostracised (think London in the 80s).
Ask yourself: if those who are protesting against immigrants being placed in hotels or pre-fab accommodation around the country were to register on the housing list, only to be told "we've only got dilapidated hotel room or a bunk bed in a shared pre-fab for you" would they happily take it?? I think we all know the answer to that one.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5082 - 21/01/2024 18:08:02
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Lads the majority of people protesting and the loudest online have not been impacted whatsoever by immigration. These people are living the same lives they have always lived. A larger number of immigrants is giving them an excuse to vent about things they haven't a clue about.
There is a discussion to be had for sure about how many we can realistically take in but the people i have heard being interviewed on the radio or seen venting online are not interested in having sensible discussions.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7972 - 21/01/2024 18:30:14
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Replying To cavanman47: "I'd largely agree with your post, Viking, but 2 things I'd say:
1. The notion that the benefits of large scale multinationals are just an illusion to the majority is nonsense. The indirect benefits to the economy of their investment in this country are immeasurable. There are welders and pipe fitters taking home a grand a week working (indirectly) for these companies. Restaurants, coffee shops, garages, small landlords, B+Bs etc all benefit from having large employers in their vicinity.
2. Irish people have travelled to the 4 corners of the globe for nearly 2 centuries. We've seen what has happened when we've been welcomed (we practically built North America and Australia) and we've seen what's happened when we've been ostracised (think London in the 80s).
Ask yourself: if those who are protesting against immigrants being placed in hotels or pre-fab accommodation around the country were to register on the housing list, only to be told "we've only got dilapidated hotel room or a bunk bed in a shared pre-fab for you" would they happily take it?? I think we all know the answer to that one." I don't think we've really been welcomed anywhere except for the last 20 years. We've suffered just as much abroad as we have at home over the centuries.
I'd argue we've succeeded in spite of the "welcome" not because of it.
Multinationals have been hugely positive. Apple are actually the second largest contributor to employer prsi, second only to the HSE. I don't actually care that they won't pay corporate tax when they're paying excellent wages that are spent locally.
Finally, the biggest drain on resources as a result of immigration is policing. There's a deeply concerning trend in the nature of violent crimes being committed, and anyone that denies the coral lation is delusional
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2961 - 21/01/2024 18:38:28
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Replying To cavanman47: "I'd largely agree with your post, Viking, but 2 things I'd say:
1. The notion that the benefits of large scale multinationals are just an illusion to the majority is nonsense. The indirect benefits to the economy of their investment in this country are immeasurable. There are welders and pipe fitters taking home a grand a week working (indirectly) for these companies. Restaurants, coffee shops, garages, small landlords, B+Bs etc all benefit from having large employers in their vicinity.
2. Irish people have travelled to the 4 corners of the globe for nearly 2 centuries. We've seen what has happened when we've been welcomed (we practically built North America and Australia) and we've seen what's happened when we've been ostracised (think London in the 80s).
Ask yourself: if those who are protesting against immigrants being placed in hotels or pre-fab accommodation around the country were to register on the housing list, only to be told "we've only got dilapidated hotel room or a bunk bed in a shared pre-fab for you" would they happily take it?? I think we all know the answer to that one." Agree 100% with you. I never said Multinationals weren't good for the country, who they employ, and the people where those employed spend their wages. In other words the areas where they operate. And obviously these employees pay taxes. I was only pointing out that they artificially inflate our GDP per capita, as their income is measured as being part of our economy's, when it isn't in reality. And this high GDP per capita might be attracting some immigrants.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13070 - 21/01/2024 18:55:23
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Replying To Doylerwex: "I don't think we've really been welcomed anywhere except for the last 20 years. We've suffered just as much abroad as we have at home over the centuries.
I'd argue we've succeeded in spite of the "welcome" not because of it.
Multinationals have been hugely positive. Apple are actually the second largest contributor to employer prsi, second only to the HSE. I don't actually care that they won't pay corporate tax when they're paying excellent wages that are spent locally.
Finally, the biggest drain on resources as a result of immigration is policing. There's a deeply concerning trend in the nature of violent crimes being committed, and anyone that denies the coral lation is delusional" There is a clear correlation:
Those who would be inclined to commit crimes are using immigration as an excuse for their actions, thus draining our policing resources. See the Dublin riots.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5082 - 21/01/2024 18:58:22
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Im only speaking for my own county here but If multinationals didn't exist or were not welcomed in this country then the west of Ireland would be a complete wasteland. I and many of my friends wouldn't be living in this country.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11333 - 21/01/2024 20:59:13
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Replying To yew_tree: "Im only speaking for my own county here but If multinationals didn't exist or were not welcomed in this country then the west of Ireland would be a complete wasteland. I and many of my friends wouldn't be living in this country." I think they should be welcomed also. But if you are going to take them in then you have to take in others.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13070 - 22/01/2024 08:36:56
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Replying To yew_tree: "Im only speaking for my own county here but If multinationals didn't exist or were not welcomed in this country then the west of Ireland would be a complete wasteland. I and many of my friends wouldn't be living in this country." The entire country would be an edge-of-europe backwater. Like it was up until the mid 90s really.
It wouldn't take as much as some think to throw away what we've worked so hard to achieve. Mary Lou harping on during the last election campaign, about them paying 0% tax, bordered on treason!
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5082 - 22/01/2024 12:23:20
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Replying To cavanman47: "The entire country would be an edge-of-europe backwater. Like it was up until the mid 90s really.
It wouldn't take as much as some think to throw away what we've worked so hard to achieve. Mary Lou harping on during the last election campaign, about them paying 0% tax, bordered on treason!" Cavan's undying nationalist heart beats strong as it did in...,,...........
(Dominic Behan apparently included Killeshandra in the famous ballad because it was probably one of the safest places in country for the Tans :-)
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2929 - 22/01/2024 18:32:49
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Cavan's undying nationalist heart beats strong as it did in...,,...........
(Dominic Behan apparently included Killeshandra in the famous ballad because it was probably one of the safest places in country for the Tans :-)" What in God's name are you on about??
It wasn't Cavan that the British sat comfortably in for 700 years running their regime from, was it??
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5082 - 22/01/2024 19:46:43
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Replying To cavanman47: "What in God's name are you on about??
It wasn't Cavan that the British sat comfortably in for 700 years running their regime from, was it??" Ahhh don't mind Barney.
He's still living in the NINETEEN twenties!
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1717 - 22/01/2024 22:05:14
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Replying To cavanman47: "What in God's name are you on about??
It wasn't Cavan that the British sat comfortably in for 700 years running their regime from, was it??" I wouldn't quite say comfortably. There was armed rebellion every 50 years.
For the sake of this discussion though, we all know Wexford is the real Rebel county.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2961 - 23/01/2024 08:10:01
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Anyone want to chat rugby?
Six Nations starts tonight with a big clash first up. Reckon France will shade us this evening in a battle of who can get over their World Cup hangover first! Don't think anyone will do the grand slam this year but France will probably lift the title at the end of it.
TheBlackDeath (Cavan) - Posts: 73 - 02/02/2024 11:19:22
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Replying To TheBlackDeath: "Anyone want to chat rugby?
Six Nations starts tonight with a big clash first up. Reckon France will shade us this evening in a battle of who can get over their World Cup hangover first! Don't think anyone will do the grand slam this year but France will probably lift the title at the end of it." We have to wait and see tonight. France in Marseilles will probably edge it. Have Ireland played France in Marseille before?
thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1831 - 02/02/2024 11:27:44
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