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The question must be asked will the people of Ireland ever be contented with what they have.?

The chitter chatter that takes place within families or around the kitchen table from infancy is paramount to their psychological development.

Often youngsters brought up with far less turn out to be better law-abiding citizens than those brought up with far more.

If two 10-year-old kids were given a smart phone, one has a parental lock, and the other doesn't, the question being, would that be known as smart parenting.

What is the difference between an excuse and a legitimate excuse or a reason and a valid reason? Is it true to say those words are more commonly used in defence of the indefensible, ie rioters and thugs.?

Should the thug that carried the blazing cardboard box across the street and put it into the Garda squad car last Thursday be categorized as being very brave for potentially putting his own life in danger, if the answer is yes then why did he not unmask his face to make his identity known to the tv cameras, would you say he was homeless, if he was then why would you say he was homeless, perhaps he burned it down to make an insurance claim because he had no money, and why had he no money.? It's endless.

Since that act of barbaric madness happened or made happen, it has made me realize the most important thing above anything else is human life. I think and pray for those young helpless children in particular the 6 year old girl that was critically injured, the 30 year old woman and their families.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2904 - 27/11/2023 11:50:18    2514705

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Replying To zinny:  "We need to undertake massive social housing and infrastructure projects on a scale we've never seen before it's too late.

Who is going to build them and where?

December 1985 unemployment rate of 17.30% today 4.1% In 2021 we had the 3rd highest income by employee in the EU. By any economic measure - the country is now better off than it has ever been. So why is our society crumbling before our eyes?"
Your statistics ate correct zinny.

However, in the 80s you could aspire to own a home, or failing that there were large scale social housing projects.

You could also survive on a single breadwinner which is not the case today.

Census data isn't currently being used to forecast school requirements in the right way as it is segmented by district. Ie wexgord electoral area has enough school places, there's no consideration for where they're located per head of population.

Housing needs to be prioritised and allocated as per the greatest need.

The same for schools.

Housing is also hindering the availability of teaching staff and medical professionals in those areas. They can't come to work there because there's nowhere to live.

It's pretty straight forward really.

You also haven't acknowledged under employment. Ie working but not earning a living wage.

Finally, the average industrial wage is accepted as nonsense by most economists. It includes all prsi workers. No differential between 20 hr contract in a shop of 7 figure ceo.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2540 - 27/11/2023 13:39:46    2514724

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Your statistics ate correct zinny.

However, in the 80s you could aspire to own a home, or failing that there were large scale social housing projects.

You could also survive on a single breadwinner which is not the case today.

Census data isn't currently being used to forecast school requirements in the right way as it is segmented by district. Ie wexgord electoral area has enough school places, there's no consideration for where they're located per head of population.

Housing needs to be prioritised and allocated as per the greatest need.

The same for schools.

Housing is also hindering the availability of teaching staff and medical professionals in those areas. They can't come to work there because there's nowhere to live.

It's pretty straight forward really.

You also haven't acknowledged under employment. Ie working but not earning a living wage.

Finally, the average industrial wage is accepted as nonsense by most economists. It includes all prsi workers. No differential between 20 hr contract in a shop of 7 figure ceo."
Yes. All of which is conveniently forgotten by the establishment here - which includes virtually everyone you are likely to hear on TV or radio.

They have pained a picture of a society which they claim = particularly those who were too young even to remember it - when ordinary working and middle class folk could have their own home in a safe community. Whether that was Finglas or Fionn Trá.

My daughter is one of lucky ones who has decent job and partner and who can just about afford their own house. That ambition does not exist for many, Anyone who would have you believe that the Irish state now is some wonderful advance on what it was = faults and all as there were but it was genuine community - is peddling snake oil.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2414 - 27/11/2023 15:24:48    2514744

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Replying To Galway9801:  "No, the man who first intervened was not a foreigner, he was an Irish man from wicklow, and the medias decision to almost completely ignore him is totally wrong."
Ok Galway I did nt know that and fair play to that brave Wicklow man.Also though it was a Brazilian man that hepled stop the frenzied attack.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3616 - 27/11/2023 15:32:48    2514747

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "Ok Galway I did nt know that and fair play to that brave Wicklow man.Also though it was a Brazilian man that hepled stop the frenzied attack."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Dublin_riot#:~:text=The%20five%2Dyear%2Dold%20girl,old%20trainee%20chef%20from%20France.
Information for you Mick.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11214 - 27/11/2023 18:01:58    2514781

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Replying To zinny:  "We need to undertake massive social housing and infrastructure projects on a scale we've never seen before it's too late.

Who is going to build them and where?

December 1985 unemployment rate of 17.30% today 4.1% In 2021 we had the 3rd highest income by employee in the EU. By any economic measure - the country is now better off than it has ever been. So why is our society crumbling before our eyes?"
Problem is that even if we started right now,, by the time the requisite number of homes/infrastructure has been built, the countries population will have probably significantly increased yet again so it's back to square one.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1621 - 27/11/2023 19:54:33    2514792

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "There is no excuse for rioting and looting. There is no political contents, just oportunists taking advantage. It is illustration of how fragile social order is.

Seems too that the attacker according to media today was given a deportation order 20 years ago! Still here. Same as you were referring to about free legal aid."
Those riots were totally self defeating.

It allowed the government and media to take all the attention away from the attacker and focus it on the "far right" instead.

It gave middle to upper class irish people an excuse to scorn the poorer people of the country while still claiming virtue.

It seems too that Leo is using them as an excuse to quickly push through so called hate speech legislation and facial recognition technology.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1621 - 27/11/2023 19:58:25    2514793

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Yes. All of which is conveniently forgotten by the establishment here - which includes virtually everyone you are likely to hear on TV or radio.

They have pained a picture of a society which they claim = particularly those who were too young even to remember it - when ordinary working and middle class folk could have their own home in a safe community. Whether that was Finglas or Fionn Trá.

My daughter is one of lucky ones who has decent job and partner and who can just about afford their own house. That ambition does not exist for many, Anyone who would have you believe that the Irish state now is some wonderful advance on what it was = faults and all as there were but it was genuine community - is peddling snake oil."
Not sure I would agree that things are not better economically now than in 1985 - we always tend to look back on the past with rose tinted glasses. Without doubt values have also changed, which has resulted in good and bad changes. However back to the problems. Housing - part of the problem has been the success in making Dublin such an attractive place for international companies to setup. Brexit has made it worse, we continue to attract more in and the build to cater for them continues but who is going to work in them and where will the live? At the same time we want everyone to go to university , where are they going to live? The population of Ireland has increased by 1.5M people since 85 and most of that will be in Dublin and other Urban centers. Dublin limits the height of apartment's blocks - so where do these people buy a house? students will live in apartment's but will a married couple be happy to do that? Where to build is another question - you constantly see objections to developments in areas from the existing residents as everyone is happy with what they have there already. Then you have social housing - who wants that in their area? mention it and there will be outrage in the local community.
We are still building roads when we need to build rail networks. Take Wexford - there has always been a train to Dublin which would have been perfect for anyone working in the IFSC - its a lovely scenic journey but utterly a waste from a mass transit point of view. My favorite is Dublin Airport - build the 3rd runway rather than move completely outside the City to a greenfield site and build the rail links to the city center - however we all know who was in power when that decision was made.
Builders are flat out these days - however are they building the right things - single houses as opposed to apartment blocks? Do we over prioritize the importance of third level education with I think 79% of secondary school leavers going onto it?

So yes we are suffering now, its a combination of poor planning, politics and being to successful. Unfortunately I don't see any easy solutions - perhaps that is just me - not an excuse for inaction but people saying that there are easy solutions are also peddling snake oil

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1770 - 27/11/2023 21:31:18    2514797

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Replying To Galway9801:  "Problem is that even if we started right now,, by the time the requisite number of homes/infrastructure has been built, the countries population will have probably significantly increased yet again so it's back to square one."
That was pointed out last night on TV. Current population growth - 90% driven by immigration - requires 70,000+ houses being built every year, They built 30,000 this year?

Do the math as Americans say. No state ought to be a convenience for external actors and their economic needs, A country is more than an economy, and the gap between the reality for working/middle class people and the "per capita GDP" metric - which is pretty meaningless given that 25% is taken out of state = is large.

When two working people cannot reasonably expect to attain the same house ownership on two incomes without signing up to a lifelong mortgage - as their parents had on one - then something is amiss.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2414 - 28/11/2023 09:50:58    2514813

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Replying To zinny:  "Not sure I would agree that things are not better economically now than in 1985 - we always tend to look back on the past with rose tinted glasses. Without doubt values have also changed, which has resulted in good and bad changes. However back to the problems. Housing - part of the problem has been the success in making Dublin such an attractive place for international companies to setup. Brexit has made it worse, we continue to attract more in and the build to cater for them continues but who is going to work in them and where will the live? At the same time we want everyone to go to university , where are they going to live? The population of Ireland has increased by 1.5M people since 85 and most of that will be in Dublin and other Urban centers. Dublin limits the height of apartment's blocks - so where do these people buy a house? students will live in apartment's but will a married couple be happy to do that? Where to build is another question - you constantly see objections to developments in areas from the existing residents as everyone is happy with what they have there already. Then you have social housing - who wants that in their area? mention it and there will be outrage in the local community.
We are still building roads when we need to build rail networks. Take Wexford - there has always been a train to Dublin which would have been perfect for anyone working in the IFSC - its a lovely scenic journey but utterly a waste from a mass transit point of view. My favorite is Dublin Airport - build the 3rd runway rather than move completely outside the City to a greenfield site and build the rail links to the city center - however we all know who was in power when that decision was made.
Builders are flat out these days - however are they building the right things - single houses as opposed to apartment blocks? Do we over prioritize the importance of third level education with I think 79% of secondary school leavers going onto it?

So yes we are suffering now, its a combination of poor planning, politics and being to successful. Unfortunately I don't see any easy solutions - perhaps that is just me - not an excuse for inaction but people saying that there are easy solutions are also peddling snake oil"
I can see we agree on quite a bit.

I'll leave it with this Chinese proverb.

The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The next best time is now.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2540 - 28/11/2023 11:12:30    2514831

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So it's the lack of housing that caused the riots and the looting? That's a stretch but sure we'll give that a lash. Me Ma got a free gaff so I'll just say I'm angry that I won't get one.
Unemployment? Oh yeah, can't fall back on that one. Hang on, I've to start at the bottom like everyone else? Work long hours? Get a qualification? Can't be having that!
Lack of education? Yeah I know I have any amount of schools and colleges on my doorstep and I won't have to worry about accommodation or fees but still....
Covid? Yeah we can blame that. I don't know if I got it and I definitely didnt wear a mask but maybe I can say thats why I was wearing one the other night.
The Guards? We can always blame them! They don't reach out enough to marginalised people like me. Why can't they be nicer to me? They are always trying to ruin my fun?
Who else can I blame? Not to worry, there'll be plenty of geniuses along to tell me that none of this is my fault. I'll just sit here laughing at them.

ThePowerhouse (Leitrim) - Posts: 97 - 28/11/2023 12:24:30    2514849

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Replying To ThePowerhouse:  "So it's the lack of housing that caused the riots and the looting? That's a stretch but sure we'll give that a lash. Me Ma got a free gaff so I'll just say I'm angry that I won't get one.
Unemployment? Oh yeah, can't fall back on that one. Hang on, I've to start at the bottom like everyone else? Work long hours? Get a qualification? Can't be having that!
Lack of education? Yeah I know I have any amount of schools and colleges on my doorstep and I won't have to worry about accommodation or fees but still....
Covid? Yeah we can blame that. I don't know if I got it and I definitely didnt wear a mask but maybe I can say thats why I was wearing one the other night.
The Guards? We can always blame them! They don't reach out enough to marginalised people like me. Why can't they be nicer to me? They are always trying to ruin my fun?
Who else can I blame? Not to worry, there'll be plenty of geniuses along to tell me that none of this is my fault. I'll just sit here laughing at them."
There is a certain amount of irony in the above post imo. The post exhibits a certain amount of the blame culture that it also seeks to decry at the same time.

The thread on here has actually been relatively, dare I say, intelligent. A lot more intelligent than a lot of the discourse I've seen in the media and in other places online in anyways.

People can see reasons behind the actions we've seen of late. There are reasons but not excuses for what we've seen.

To ignore the reasons behind the behaviour is the height of stupidity, as it ultimately leads to more of the same.

To pretend that people in more disadvantaged areas have it so easy, and easier than others, is ludicrous as the only conclusion that you must reach is that the only reason that those people remain disadvantaged is some inherent flaw in their make up as humans.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13685 - 28/11/2023 12:52:09    2514854

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Replying To MesAmis:  "There is a certain amount of irony in the above post imo. The post exhibits a certain amount of the blame culture that it also seeks to decry at the same time.

The thread on here has actually been relatively, dare I say, intelligent. A lot more intelligent than a lot of the discourse I've seen in the media and in other places online in anyways.

People can see reasons behind the actions we've seen of late. There are reasons but not excuses for what we've seen.

To ignore the reasons behind the behaviour is the height of stupidity, as it ultimately leads to more of the same.

To pretend that people in more disadvantaged areas have it so easy, and easier than others, is ludicrous as the only conclusion that you must reach is that the only reason that those people remain disadvantaged is some inherent flaw in their make up as humans."
And yet you've stated that you'd have no problem walking around that area day or night! Trying to convince people that there's no problem doing so. Anything happen on Talbot St. in the last few days that'd change your mind?

ThePowerhouse (Leitrim) - Posts: 97 - 28/11/2023 13:11:53    2514862

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This is not a black and white topic and it never is. I lived in Dublin for 10 years. Loved going out in town at the weekend but Dublin has and has always had huge issues. For a capital city trying to attract tourism O Connell ST/ Parnell St/ Talbot St/ Abbey St etc. is a no go area at night time for most and for good reason. It's shameful to be honest and issues have been ignored for decades now.

I don't condone the idiots who did what they did but as I said previously we had the exact same thing the day of the Love Ulster riots. People who come from these areas don't have the same chance as the majority of the population. Anyone who says they do is delusional. Until change is forced by government to change social, educational and economic problems in these areas nothing will change.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7777 - 28/11/2023 13:24:36    2514864

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Replying To ThePowerhouse:  "So it's the lack of housing that caused the riots and the looting? That's a stretch but sure we'll give that a lash. Me Ma got a free gaff so I'll just say I'm angry that I won't get one.
Unemployment? Oh yeah, can't fall back on that one. Hang on, I've to start at the bottom like everyone else? Work long hours? Get a qualification? Can't be having that!
Lack of education? Yeah I know I have any amount of schools and colleges on my doorstep and I won't have to worry about accommodation or fees but still....
Covid? Yeah we can blame that. I don't know if I got it and I definitely didnt wear a mask but maybe I can say thats why I was wearing one the other night.
The Guards? We can always blame them! They don't reach out enough to marginalised people like me. Why can't they be nicer to me? They are always trying to ruin my fun?
Who else can I blame? Not to worry, there'll be plenty of geniuses along to tell me that none of this is my fault. I'll just sit here laughing at them."
To be absolutely clear, none of these are excuses or were ever framed as such.

The point is a huge portion of our population is so far removed from its leadership that they feel totally ignored.

The riots were not a political statement. However the alt right is successful in garnering support from areas that they should not be able to.

This is the result of the disillusion we are talking about due to our leadership not understanding the fears and struggles of the electore.

This cannot continue, or I believe this will get a whole lot worse. See trump and brexit for reference.

Again, not an excuse for criminality. Just a snapshot of the social problems we've been ignoring that have contributed to this

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2540 - 28/11/2023 13:41:33    2514868

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Replying To zinny:  "Not sure I would agree that things are not better economically now than in 1985 - we always tend to look back on the past with rose tinted glasses. Without doubt values have also changed, which has resulted in good and bad changes. However back to the problems. Housing - part of the problem has been the success in making Dublin such an attractive place for international companies to setup. Brexit has made it worse, we continue to attract more in and the build to cater for them continues but who is going to work in them and where will the live? At the same time we want everyone to go to university , where are they going to live? The population of Ireland has increased by 1.5M people since 85 and most of that will be in Dublin and other Urban centers. Dublin limits the height of apartment's blocks - so where do these people buy a house? students will live in apartment's but will a married couple be happy to do that? Where to build is another question - you constantly see objections to developments in areas from the existing residents as everyone is happy with what they have there already. Then you have social housing - who wants that in their area? mention it and there will be outrage in the local community.
We are still building roads when we need to build rail networks. Take Wexford - there has always been a train to Dublin which would have been perfect for anyone working in the IFSC - its a lovely scenic journey but utterly a waste from a mass transit point of view. My favorite is Dublin Airport - build the 3rd runway rather than move completely outside the City to a greenfield site and build the rail links to the city center - however we all know who was in power when that decision was made.
Builders are flat out these days - however are they building the right things - single houses as opposed to apartment blocks? Do we over prioritize the importance of third level education with I think 79% of secondary school leavers going onto it?

So yes we are suffering now, its a combination of poor planning, politics and being to successful. Unfortunately I don't see any easy solutions - perhaps that is just me - not an excuse for inaction but people saying that there are easy solutions are also peddling snake oil"
Zingy you make a lot of useful and correct points but everything in your argument is Dublin based and Dublin issues, for me this is the underlying problem in Ireland, the government has to satisfy Dublin first and the rest of the country afterwards. Limerick to Cork motorway has plans at last to be built, that's the 2nd and 3rd cities in this country being properly connected. Limerick to Galway has a motorway so Limerick, Cork and Galway should be used as a counterweight to Dublin to bring industry and prosperity to the South and West of the country. We have Cork and Foynes ports, Shannon and Cork airports and throw money at this area to take the pressure off Dublin. Have a plan to join the 3 cities into 1 economic area and this would benefit all of Munster up to Mayo and into the western Midlands and free up housing in Dublin and in the commuter belt around Dublin, the social benefits will then follow for the capital but who has the brains or vision to do this.

updwell (Limerick) - Posts: 801 - 28/11/2023 13:54:43    2514874

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As this collection of sad-sacks are starting to appear before the courts its interesting to note some of their names and addresses. Not all inner-city Dubliners then. So much for that stereotype. On top of that, a couple of surnames that you'd hazard a guess and say, nope, that lad's not even a born and bred Paddy. Sadly, one of them I know of (as opposed to actually know). Word in the locale is he's not a nazi, just a gobs***e. A gobs***e who's about to lose a very good job

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1059 - 28/11/2023 14:29:35    2514878

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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/27/large-scale-arrests-expected-for-suspected-ringleaders-of-dublin-riot

This is the best McEntee can come up with? Get the overworked lads to work harder and rush through some dodgy legislation to facilitate it? My god.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11214 - 28/11/2023 17:13:55    2514913

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Replying To updwell:  "Zingy you make a lot of useful and correct points but everything in your argument is Dublin based and Dublin issues, for me this is the underlying problem in Ireland, the government has to satisfy Dublin first and the rest of the country afterwards. Limerick to Cork motorway has plans at last to be built, that's the 2nd and 3rd cities in this country being properly connected. Limerick to Galway has a motorway so Limerick, Cork and Galway should be used as a counterweight to Dublin to bring industry and prosperity to the South and West of the country. We have Cork and Foynes ports, Shannon and Cork airports and throw money at this area to take the pressure off Dublin. Have a plan to join the 3 cities into 1 economic area and this would benefit all of Munster up to Mayo and into the western Midlands and free up housing in Dublin and in the commuter belt around Dublin, the social benefits will then follow for the capital but who has the brains or vision to do this."
You do have a good point regarding Dublin.. It is way too big, and is turning into nasty soulless high rise.

State has always had great plans for "decentralisation" but they are little more than logistical support for foreign corporations who mostly want to be in Dublin so city just a convenience for them.

Dublin as anything resembling a functioning Irish community (and GAA will be one of casualties of that) will no longer exist while the "periphery" will decline and young people forced to leave, and not even be able to afford a place to live in Dublin!

Men of 16 would have been better off going for a few pints and to the races in Fairyhouse.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2414 - 28/11/2023 17:39:20    2514918

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Things will only change if we USE OUR VOTES. Too many people are not voting at all. And not voting simply means diehard political people will end up MAKING the decisions for all of us.

bruffgael (Limerick) - Posts: 121 - 28/11/2023 19:27:53    2514934

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