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Just wondering if any supporters have any ideas on the club championship proposal? I see the county board sent out an email a week or so ago looking for ideas? At the county board meeting along with your proposal you have to use a calendar with it showing how it all fits in so I would imagine it will take a bit of working to have a proposal put forward? I hope I am wrong but I cant see too many going to all this trouble.
alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 403 - 06/01/2022 09:05:10
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Replying To alwaysasub: "Just wondering if any supporters have any ideas on the club championship proposal? I see the county board sent out an email a week or so ago looking for ideas? At the county board meeting along with your proposal you have to use a calendar with it showing how it all fits in so I would imagine it will take a bit of working to have a proposal put forward? I hope I am wrong but I cant see too many going to all this trouble." It's a far better way than have someone propose something off the top of their head that sounds good but with no idea of how it would work in practice.
Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 524 - 06/01/2022 09:44:08
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True, my own preference would be to go back to two groups of 6 as it gave plenty of games for everyone. I understand this might be difficult to squeeze in with the timeframe but i dont really see what would be wrong with playing games mid week to fit this in. I know it would be a alot of games but at least you are getting a good few games rather than just the three and a few league games earlier on in the year.
alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 403 - 06/01/2022 10:21:38
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Replying To alwaysasub: "True, my own preference would be to go back to two groups of 6 as it gave plenty of games for everyone. I understand this might be difficult to squeeze in with the timeframe but i dont really see what would be wrong with playing games mid week to fit this in. I know it would be a alot of games but at least you are getting a good few games rather than just the three and a few league games earlier on in the year." If possible it would be my preference too but that's a big IF.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 06/01/2022 10:48:45
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go back to groups of 6,
would need champ to start 1st weekend of July and play every weekend to egt both codes finished before leinster club starts,
if hurlers got to all ireland semi or footballers got to Tailteann cup final club champ couldnt start 1st weekend of July,
id say county board will push for same syayem as last year, 2 less weekends gives bit of lee way in case needed
lefty (Wexford) - Posts: 186 - 06/01/2022 10:56:55
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Id go with the 4 groups of 3 - but with a twist - the spare team each week plays a team from another group which is drawn at random. That means every club plays every week.
After Group stages top team in each group goes to quarters with 2nds and thirds to prelim quarters (with the proviso that a prelim quarter or a quarter cant be against a team already played in the group stages. )
Every team guaranteed 4 games minimum Champ ran off in 7 weeks.. Could also provide that the group games in one code be played then switch codes then play Prelim quarters to final in first code - Might keep things interesting
fearcliste (Wexford) - Posts: 178 - 06/01/2022 11:48:00
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I think 4 groups of 4. No teams need byes. Top 2 in each group into QFs. Bottom 2 in each group into relegation semis. 2 up and 2 down. More of our club hurlers will get to play against the best clubs in the county. Yes, there will be some one sided games but overall I think it will bring the general standard of hurling up county wide. It will be up to the 2 teams promoted from Intermediate to Senior to get fitter and put the hours into the team training to raise their standards if they want to compete at senior, for example. All teams in each group guaranteed 4 games and maybe get 6 games. Leaves plenty of time to get both the football and hurling championships run off before the Leinsters start.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 06/01/2022 13:16:32
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how do you propose getting all grades to 16 teams
lefty (Wexford) - Posts: 186 - 06/01/2022 13:37:31
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Replying To alwaysasub: "True, my own preference would be to go back to two groups of 6 as it gave plenty of games for everyone. I understand this might be difficult to squeeze in with the timeframe but i dont really see what would be wrong with playing games mid week to fit this in. I know it would be a alot of games but at least you are getting a good few games rather than just the three and a few league games earlier on in the year." An immediate problem with playing adult championship games midweek is where, when and how you'd propose to fit the U20 championships in?
But overall, good to see some discussion here on this, and hopefully there'll be some good proposals for the Co. Board meeting later in the month where things are to be decided.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2249 - 06/01/2022 14:10:44
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Replying To lefty: "how do you propose getting all grades to 16 teams" At the beginning of this season tell the clubs that that will be the new structure from the beginning of next season. Ok so there will be no relegation from senior but there will be a good tussle at intermediate to finish in the top 4. Top 8 in intermediate A become Intermediate. Bottom 4 in intermediate A go back to Junior.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 06/01/2022 17:19:47
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Replying To Viking66: "At the beginning of this season tell the clubs that that will be the new structure from the beginning of next season. Ok so there will be no relegation from senior but there will be a good tussle at intermediate to finish in the top 4. Top 8 in intermediate A become Intermediate. Bottom 4 in intermediate A go back to Junior." There probably isnt any huge difference in standard between Oulart, Fethard, Buffers Alley and Bunclody, or whoever reaches the Intermediate semi finals, and the bottom 4 senior clubs next year. Oulart and Fethard in particular would probably be nearer the standard of the top 8 than the bottom 4 senior clubs. And the 8 Intermediate A Quarter finalists wouldnt be far off the standard of the bottom 8 Intermediate clubs.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 07/01/2022 10:12:06
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Replying To Viking66: "At the beginning of this season tell the clubs that that will be the new structure from the beginning of next season. Ok so there will be no relegation from senior but there will be a good tussle at intermediate to finish in the top 4. Top 8 in intermediate A become Intermediate. Bottom 4 in intermediate A go back to Junior." Seems there'd be no promotion for the Junior winners under that system?
Probably have to tweak things along the lines of top seven in Intermediate 'A' plus the Junior winners going up to Intermediate. Bottom five in Intermediate 'A' drop back to Junior.
Still also have to get Junior 'A' up to 16 teams. Suppose you could do this by promoting the four District winners from Junior 'B'.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2249 - 07/01/2022 13:41:19
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We must have short memories. The 16 team grades meant there was too big a gap between the contenders and everyone else. There is a reason why the championship is so much more competitive now than ever before- less teams making up the numbers and thus a better spread of well-matched teams. The last football club to win back-to-back senior titles was Horeswood in 2006; the fact there hasn't been a repeat winner in hurling since Oulart in 2016 is basically insane given the historic nature of the championship.
Would we have ever seen two powerhouses like Oulart and Martin's even near a relegation final in a 16-team format? I don't think so. People say that the difference in quality between those at the bottom rung of the ladder in senior and at the upper end of Intermediate is quite small, but I don't think it would translate across all grades. For talk sake, would Liam Mellows,Craanford and St.Martin's seconds (the three other semi-finals in Inter A last year), be in the shake-up for Intermediate honours? No disrespect, but I don't think so. Heck, I can't see the actual Intermediate A champions Tara Rocks having the quality to compete either.
As for the proposal, twelve teams is the goldilocks number. Revert back to the 6-team per group format, and if they are so dead set on alternate weeks, maybe they could have it in blocks. Three rounds of whatever code first (let's be honest, hurling will win out here), followed by three rounds of the other. You can then play off code A to a finish, and even simultaneously fix games in code B from the quarter-finals onwards depending on how the groups are shaping up. Utilise midweek games if needed (for example, some team are mathematically unable to qualify for the QFs of the hurling after four rounds, throw in a football group game on the Wednesday).
One down every year.
I do like a prior suggestion of including in an extra game in a bye-week if it's the 4 groups of 3 set-up.
beano (Wexford) - Posts: 1417 - 07/01/2022 15:18:20
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Seems there'd be no promotion for the Junior winners under that system?
Probably have to tweak things along the lines of top seven in Intermediate 'A' plus the Junior winners going up to Intermediate. Bottom five in Intermediate 'A' drop back to Junior.
Still also have to get Junior 'A' up to 16 teams. Suppose you could do this by promoting the four District winners from Junior 'B'." Lads will you get real here - theres no way the clubs or anyone are going to agree to a restructuring like this at the stroke of a pen. Clubs want to earn their promotion by winning and be relegated as of right.
If you want to get three rounds with no one sitting out any round look at my earlier post It will work just fine. Besides this is not the year for any major restructure coming off the uncertainty of the past two years. Let things settle down a bit an see if a major restructuring is needed.
Its funny when you look at how championships (senior) develop over the years - about 5/6 years ago there were only 2/3 teams with a realistic chance of winning the hurling championship now i would say it might be one of 7/8. and in football about 5/6 years ago i would say that any one of 9/10 teams could have won it but now i would say that number is down to 3/4. So I dont think that whether there is 12 or 16 teams in a championship has a major bearing on that. Though I would naturally think that the smaller number leads to less mis-matches in the various grades.
fearcliste (Wexford) - Posts: 178 - 07/01/2022 15:19:29
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Replying To fearcliste: " Replying To Pikeman96: "Seems there'd be no promotion for the Junior winners under that system?
Probably have to tweak things along the lines of top seven in Intermediate 'A' plus the Junior winners going up to Intermediate. Bottom five in Intermediate 'A' drop back to Junior.
Still also have to get Junior 'A' up to 16 teams. Suppose you could do this by promoting the four District winners from Junior 'B'." Lads will you get real here - theres no way the clubs or anyone are going to agree to a restructuring like this at the stroke of a pen. Clubs want to earn their promotion by winning and be relegated as of right. If you want to get three rounds with no one sitting out any round look at my earlier post It will work just fine. Besides this is not the year for any major restructure coming off the uncertainty of the past two years. Let things settle down a bit an see if a major restructuring is needed. Its funny when you look at how championships (senior) develop over the years - about 5/6 years ago there were only 2/3 teams with a realistic chance of winning the hurling championship now i would say it might be one of 7/8. and in football about 5/6 years ago i would say that any one of 9/10 teams could have won it but now i would say that number is down to 3/4. So I dont think that whether there is 12 or 16 teams in a championship has a major bearing on that. Though I would naturally think that the smaller number leads to less mis-matches in the various grades."
Would you see it as meaningful or just a practice match?
Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 524 - 07/01/2022 15:35:07
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Replying To Onfor15: " Replying To fearcliste: "[quote=Pikeman96: "Seems there'd be no promotion for the Junior winners under that system?
Probably have to tweak things along the lines of top seven in Intermediate 'A' plus the Junior winners going up to Intermediate. Bottom five in Intermediate 'A' drop back to Junior.
Still also have to get Junior 'A' up to 16 teams. Suppose you could do this by promoting the four District winners from Junior 'B'." Lads will you get real here - theres no way the clubs or anyone are going to agree to a restructuring like this at the stroke of a pen. Clubs want to earn their promotion by winning and be relegated as of right. If you want to get three rounds with no one sitting out any round look at my earlier post It will work just fine. Besides this is not the year for any major restructure coming off the uncertainty of the past two years. Let things settle down a bit an see if a major restructuring is needed. Its funny when you look at how championships (senior) develop over the years - about 5/6 years ago there were only 2/3 teams with a realistic chance of winning the hurling championship now i would say it might be one of 7/8. and in football about 5/6 years ago i would say that any one of 9/10 teams could have won it but now i would say that number is down to 3/4. So I dont think that whether there is 12 or 16 teams in a championship has a major bearing on that. Though I would naturally think that the smaller number leads to less mis-matches in the various grades."
Would you see it as meaningful or just a practice match?"]A Meaningful game - each team plays 3 games which counts towards their points total. Just adds a bit of variety and unknown to each round.
fearcliste (Wexford) - Posts: 178 - 07/01/2022 15:49:48
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Seems there'd be no promotion for the Junior winners under that system?
Probably have to tweak things along the lines of top seven in Intermediate 'A' plus the Junior winners going up to Intermediate. Bottom five in Intermediate 'A' drop back to Junior.
Still also have to get Junior 'A' up to 16 teams. Suppose you could do this by promoting the four District winners from Junior 'B'." Yes I was just putting a broad proposal here Pikeman. There would need to be some details sorted before a concrete proposal was finalised. There were 4 considerations.
1- a balance between more games and the finite length of time to run the competition off.
2- getting more hurlers playing more games against a better standard of opponent. This should help our intercounty teams improve.
3- having a simpler format with less byes and complications.
4- a more old fashioned system with less grades so that a good crop of players might stay playing together longer if they see that their Junior club might have a better realistic chance of making it to senior for example.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 07/01/2022 16:35:25
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Replying To beano: "We must have short memories. The 16 team grades meant there was too big a gap between the contenders and everyone else. There is a reason why the championship is so much more competitive now than ever before- less teams making up the numbers and thus a better spread of well-matched teams. The last football club to win back-to-back senior titles was Horeswood in 2006; the fact there hasn't been a repeat winner in hurling since Oulart in 2016 is basically insane given the historic nature of the championship.
Would we have ever seen two powerhouses like Oulart and Martin's even near a relegation final in a 16-team format? I don't think so. People say that the difference in quality between those at the bottom rung of the ladder in senior and at the upper end of Intermediate is quite small, but I don't think it would translate across all grades. For talk sake, would Liam Mellows,Craanford and St.Martin's seconds (the three other semi-finals in Inter A last year), be in the shake-up for Intermediate honours? No disrespect, but I don't think so. Heck, I can't see the actual Intermediate A champions Tara Rocks having the quality to compete either.
As for the proposal, twelve teams is the goldilocks number. Revert back to the 6-team per group format, and if they are so dead set on alternate weeks, maybe they could have it in blocks. Three rounds of whatever code first (let's be honest, hurling will win out here), followed by three rounds of the other. You can then play off code A to a finish, and even simultaneously fix games in code B from the quarter-finals onwards depending on how the groups are shaping up. Utilise midweek games if needed (for example, some team are mathematically unable to qualify for the QFs of the hurling after four rounds, throw in a football group game on the Wednesday).
One down every year.
I do like a prior suggestion of including in an extra game in a bye-week if it's the 4 groups of 3 set-up." With the top 4 going up to senior I think Tara Rocks and Liam Mellows and Craanford for that matter would all be competitive enough. Cushinstown will be Intermediate A next year and they were in our division playing against Senior clubs in the league. I'd of seen more Intermediate hurling than Senior hurling and I dont think Tara Rocks or your Liam Mellows side are miles off from that standard. I think there would be more teams in with a shout of winning Intermediate in the 16 team system than there were this year for example, where it was pretty apparent after their 2nd game that Oylegate were a good bit ahead of everyone else.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 07/01/2022 16:43:39
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Replying To beano: "We must have short memories. The 16 team grades meant there was too big a gap between the contenders and everyone else. There is a reason why the championship is so much more competitive now than ever before- less teams making up the numbers and thus a better spread of well-matched teams. The last football club to win back-to-back senior titles was Horeswood in 2006; the fact there hasn't been a repeat winner in hurling since Oulart in 2016 is basically insane given the historic nature of the championship.
Would we have ever seen two powerhouses like Oulart and Martin's even near a relegation final in a 16-team format? I don't think so. People say that the difference in quality between those at the bottom rung of the ladder in senior and at the upper end of Intermediate is quite small, but I don't think it would translate across all grades. For talk sake, would Liam Mellows,Craanford and St.Martin's seconds (the three other semi-finals in Inter A last year), be in the shake-up for Intermediate honours? No disrespect, but I don't think so. Heck, I can't see the actual Intermediate A champions Tara Rocks having the quality to compete either.
As for the proposal, twelve teams is the goldilocks number. Revert back to the 6-team per group format, and if they are so dead set on alternate weeks, maybe they could have it in blocks. Three rounds of whatever code first (let's be honest, hurling will win out here), followed by three rounds of the other. You can then play off code A to a finish, and even simultaneously fix games in code B from the quarter-finals onwards depending on how the groups are shaping up. Utilise midweek games if needed (for example, some team are mathematically unable to qualify for the QFs of the hurling after four rounds, throw in a football group game on the Wednesday).
One down every year.
I do like a prior suggestion of including in an extra game in a bye-week if it's the 4 groups of 3 set-up." Also I dont think a 16 team or 12 team format makes any difference to how many teams are in with a realistic shout of winning the Senior championship in either code.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 07/01/2022 16:44:54
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@fearcliste - just want to point out I never said I was in favour of reverting to 16 teams per grade. I was just showing how somebody else's proposal would have to be tweaked if you wanted to do that.
My own preference is for a return to two groups of six in each grade, and I've said that on here before. Whether it's hurling first, football first, or mixing the two on alternate weekends, is a whole other story. But I do like Beano's idea of playing a block of maybe three hurling first, followed by three football, etc.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2249 - 07/01/2022 16:53:47
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