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Poacher was fairly annoyed over that and rightly so, he still has a soft spot for Carlow though, it would be worth a try although the travel might be a bit of an issue, fair auld spin down. Even in an advisory role
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1595 - 08/04/2024 15:07:28 2536616 Link 0 |
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Sorry benchtoaster: we were promoted to div.3 once in the past 36 years on our own merits in the league. Any other time we were out of div.4 was when croke park restructured the NFL divisions. supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2908 - 08/04/2024 16:07:28 2536649 Link 0 |
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That's kinda my point though. What are we really expecting? We've never had anything different. Look I'm just saying with so many cuts and the board complaining about how much it costs to run teams maybe the team that's going the best and most competitive should be given the bigger push. I dunno lads it's depressing like I would obviously rather see both teams going well but it's never been the case and having been involved as a chap I can tell ya the hurlers were always the poor cousins of the footballers.! benchtoaster (Carlow) - Posts: 17 - 08/04/2024 16:16:04 2536654 Link 0 |
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This hankering back to a previous era is absolute nonsense and does nothing to improve anything. Mamagers of the past had their day and the brutal football that was played under previous managers was shocking to watch. Yes people will say we got results, and to what cost I ask? We got out of Div 4 yes, but the following years league we were straight down. That style of football that was adopted was shocking to watch. The top teams play a particular brand that we have not played. The minor team are trying to play that brand and fair play to the team management and coaches for trying to bring in a far better and more productive style that mirrors what Dublin Kerry and Mayo play. Being very honest, the basic skills of the game are not there amongst a large number of players within the county. Most other counties in div 4.have gotten better while we have regressed. Success needs to be built from the bottom up. Otherwise it's a temporary fix. No manager will improve the success rate until we have players able to perform at the level required. Above all, i feel for all involved yesterday. It was a difficult game and yes, we were very poor and yet the players were trying and doing their best. Blaming the county board and the current manager is not going to work either. It's might get things off our chest but offers no solution. I believe we need to go back to the grass roots and ask are we doing things right at that level and take it.from there. Hard work is needed. carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1821 - 08/04/2024 18:06:23 2536690 Link 0 |
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Excuse me for butting in here but I am following this thread with interest as we, as another lesser light, have many of the same difficulties at adult and juvenile level. I agree with almost all your points, with the exception of absolving the county board. After all, is it not, or should it not, be one of the responsibilities of that board to oversee and ensure that all clubs are coaching etc from juvenile upwards. I agree totally that clubs should be the prime movers in improving the coaching structures internally. Hard work is the only way forward. We are making small strides but we are probably 2 / 4 yrs off the level required to beat or compete regularly with the Kildares, Dublins, Meaths and Offalys. Maybe even longer. Finance is a major issue in "weaker" counties while trying to improve standards. Success will bring plenty of sponsorship but without sponsorship there can be no success or at least only limited success. You really have made great strides with the small ball code and long may that keep up.
Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 1001 - 08/04/2024 19:01:07 2536715 Link 0 |
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Catch and kick hasn't worked for us .... since about 1944 .... the more tactical Ulster style (while maybe not pretty) served us well a few years ago, we were damn hard to beat - some version of this properly executed is the way to go. Going back a few years, the 'Band' complemented each other, TOB knew the local scene, and sponsors - remember to be competitive costs money - lots of it. He was self aware enough to know he didn't have all the answers. Enter Poacher, also a very charismatic individual, steeped in coaching, but also if you remember got us access to challenge matches against Ulster sides such as Tyrone under Mickey Harte - a completely different level - when did the likes of a Dublin or Kerry ever do that for us? Answer = Never. Coming up through a broken underage system meant these guys had to 'hothouse' belief and confidence amongst the players, not an easy thing to do and one that can be brittle. Rubbing shoulders with some of the business end teams and cultivating a slight Ulster 'chip on the shoulder' helped. Small things, but very smart and IMHO was part of the secret sauce. Also from a very small playing pool we have limitations in terms of natural skill levels vs the traditional counties, by being better organised and taking a more tactical approach we maximised what we had. I know some reckon Poacher was the one who got away, but his career in the interim has been patchy, manager is very different from coach with very different skills. - TOB and Poacher could never have worked without the other. Outside of Carlow where he would be seen as taking a professional approach to his previous assignments, Carew to be fair inherited an aging side with a lot of subsequent retirements - you will recall the 2018 side was very settled with few enough subs ever coming on during games. Some of the current side were panelists under TOB and to be fair have developed and stuck with it since which must be acknowledged. There is a decent core group of players - Morrissey, Foley, Hulton, Dunphy, Bambrick, Crowley, Conor Doyle, the Clarkes to name a few. The season started well but there are are positional gaps which I think goosed Carew this year - midfield for example where a veteran Brendan Murphy was one of the club scene standouts last season. The manager can be blamed for many things, but a slim pick from a mediocre enough club scene is not one of them. Hopefully, the lads can collectively pull it together to salvage something from the season, they are certainly much better than the result yesterday and owe it to themselves as a collective. I now wonder did the C/ship follow too soon upon a disappointing end to the league? Bainisteoir (National) - Posts: 540 - 08/04/2024 19:24:15 2536718 Link 0 |
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I remember coming on here nearly 20 years ago bemoaning the level that Carlow schools competed at. Knockbeg is technically in Co. Carlow, but it's heart is in Laois. Smokeless Red (Carlow) - Posts: 15 - 08/04/2024 19:33:16 2536725 Link 0 |
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If it was so horrible to watch why were so many going to games, I found nothing horrible about winning. And we were very unlucky to go back down, if we had beaten down we were in contention for promotion to division 2 and that's when you take into account losing some key players to injuries. You sound like you enjoy losing. I just don't understand that attitude. If you call getting absolutely hammered at minor something to be proud of then I sincerely hope you aren't in any decision making role, those minors deserve far better. A good set up and make them competitive. So if we do get to play the stronger counties we are prepared . I agree with you on the skills, that's a big issue but we aren't alone in that, most division 3 and 4 counties are the same, and we can't even compete with them so there has to be other reasons Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1595 - 08/04/2024 21:34:55 2536750 Link 0 |
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I wish you were right there, freethinker but take a look at our underage results with the small ball over the last couple of years, it doesn't make for pretty viewing. Hammered again on Saturday by kildare. What I'd like to know is what are these full time development officers being paid for. Just as well for them it's not a results based system because they'd all be paupers.
Overthebar53 (Carlow) - Posts: 204 - 08/04/2024 23:19:27 2536764 Link 1 |
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I wasn't aware that Joe Murphy was a carlow manager before. I agree that we have to start at the underage but what evidence do we have that any work apart from fulfilling the fixtures IS being done. Results certainly don't indicate that. So you're basically saying leave Carew in situ cos there's no point in changing the current set up. Hmmm not looking forward to next year, that's all I'll say.
Overthebar53 (Carlow) - Posts: 204 - 08/04/2024 23:25:47 2536765 Link 0 |
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Schools are a mess, knockbeg are laois with a few carlow lads, they have slipped too, nowhere near naas, the cbs has very little going on, very little preparation goes into their teams, I'd be very careful about throwing resources at schools unless you had full access to the school squads, what would be the point of say firing money at the cbs and half the team from graige or kileshin, now if the objective was to get the best carlow players from a few schools and enter the A then that might be something worth looking at but it has to be carlow players, there is no point doing it to benefit other counties. Strong schools are a by product of strong clubs not the other way around, and for me it has to start with improving our club footballers, I'd watch a fair bit of underage football and for me anyway the basic skills just aren't there, that comes down to coaching If you look at how coach Education is set up, foundation cover very little on the basic skills of the game award 1 needs loads of improvement too you would like to see more done around how to coach the basic skills of the game kicking/catching, instead we are looking at the athletic aspects of the game a bit too much, very important but I think skills should always take precedent, how often do you see a club player kick the ball with the outside of the boot or deliver a long ball into the forwards, at local level in Carlow this is a rarity and we are inclined to coach it out of lads. Personally I'd like to see our 12s and 14s leagues put an emphasis on kicking 2 handpasses and the ball must be kicked, support the coaches too by running a few kicking workshops, as you move up the grades you should have players who have all the skills of the games which greatly enhances what you can do Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1595 - 09/04/2024 09:50:22 2536815 Link 2 |
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This is such a depressing post that I want to answer it line by line. I'm glad you posted it because it offers an insight into the petty, Stone Age mentality of many figures in Carlow GAA. "This hankering back to a previous era is absolute nonsense and does nothing to improve anything. - You mean the era when Carlow hammered Wexford in the first round, instead of losing by 27 points to them? Mamagers of the past had their day and the brutal football that was played under previous managers was shocking to watch. - So shocking that Carlow got their biggest crowds for games since the mid 1980s? How many Carlow people were in Wexford park on Sunday? And how many would have travelled to away games in 2017/2018? Yes people will say we got results, and to what cost I ask? - That has to be one of the most stupid things I have ever read on this board? Did some players die in the process of winning? I don't recall that. We got out of Div 4 yes, but the following years league we were straight down. - Yes, we got out of Division 4. Since then we have not even come close to getting out of it? So your point is? That style of football that was adopted was shocking to watch. - But we won games? The top teams play a particular brand that we have not played. - So you think Carlow should play like Dublin? That will lead to success? The minor team are trying to play that brand and fair play to the team management and coaches for trying to bring in a far better and more productive style that mirrors what Dublin Kerry and Mayo play. - How many matches have the minor team won? Being very honest, the basic skills of the game are not there amongst a large number of players within the county. - You say we don't have basic skills, but we should play like Dublin? Most other counties in div 4.have gotten better while we have regressed. - But you said we play better football now? Make up your mind Success needs to be built from the bottom up. Otherwise it's a temporary fix. - Have you ever heard of 'success breeds success?' No manager will improve the success rate until we have players able to perform at the level required. - so we should withdraw from inter county competitions until we have better players? Above all, i feel for all involved yesterday. - that's heartwarming. It was a difficult game and yes, we were very poor and yet the players were trying and doing their best. - they were also trying and doing their best when they hammed Wexford in 2018. Blaming the county board and the current manager is not going to work either. - The Board are responsible for the developement of Carlow football. So who else is to blame? The FAI? The IRFU? Sinn Fein? Vladimir Putin? It's might get things off our chest but offers no solution. - right, so let's never criticise the Board I believe we need to go back to the grass roots and ask are we doing things right at that level and take it.from there. Hard work is needed." - ah, the grass roots… like John Delaney. CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 596 - 09/04/2024 13:17:07 2536881 Link 3 |
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What are you expecting from these coaches ? These full time coaches ? My view is that these coaches go into primary schools and help out here and they are in Secondary schools where there is a need. Basically they introduce kids to garlic games. They go into classes with all sorts, classes with kids who have had absolutely no sports whatsoever in their backgrounds, kids from GAA backgrounds also. Much of their time is therefore giving kids an intro to gaelic games. Kids then go to clubs and it is up to coaches in the clubs to move these kids on in their skill and games development. These coaches who are paid do a 36 to 40 hour week and for anyone who has ever coached, would know how draining and tough this job is. We all expect much from a few who are at the coalface within our schools. Our teachers no longer sese it as part of their work to train and bring out teams. Those days are gone. The task has fallen straight back to the clubs and its the quality of coaching that is the key issue going forward. It's called hard work. And sadly, without serious commitment from parents working as coaches, things will not improve. carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1821 - 09/04/2024 13:31:20 2536889 Link 0 |
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I meant to write - You mean the era when Carlow beat Wexford in the first round, instead of losing by 23 points to them? mea culpa It was Louth and Kildare we hammered. CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 596 - 09/04/2024 13:36:13 2536892 Link 0 |
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My response to your rebuttal - I stand over what I have written. It's so easy really when results go against us, to shout down ALL those working at the coalface of trying to bring Carlow forward. It's just so easy. All bar 1 of those involved with the county board is working. All are club men and women who are volunteers who are giving up enormous hours every week to try to run competitions and improve standard's. Your comment is like the rubbish I hear from those who slate GAA and never attend a match for club and county. Like the auld lad on the bar stool... and I have heard plenty of those lads who hanker after the past and did nothing in between their time and now except use a bad result to slaughter those involved. carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1821 - 09/04/2024 17:30:33 2536957 Link 0 |
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So what's the point in paying these coaches then seeing as there's no point. Far better to spend this money on developing players in their respective clubs.??
Overthebar53 (Carlow) - Posts: 204 - 09/04/2024 19:10:05 2536982 Link 0 |
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Creating a Carlow GAA school is exactly what I'm getting at. Setup a scholarship program for the best 12 year olds to go to school X. Make sure they have access to best in class coaching & S&C. Compete at A level all the way up. Repeat following year. If it's supplemented by a few Graigue oe Killeshin lads, fine, but a scholarship program would ensure the core of any team would be Carlow. I disagree with what you say that the onus on player development should be with the clubs. Before they go to secondary school, they are playing Go Games, & the emphasis at this level should be about fun & inclusivity. When they go to secondary school, then is the time to get serious about being competitive. The return on investment in a setup like the above makes much more sense. It's easier to close the gap at this level, & creates a culture of competing with the best outside the county. The model could be adopted in a town school for football, & in the south of the county for hurling. I do agree with your suggestion regarding amended rules underage. I know a good few counties only allow a player in possession 1 hop & 1 solo up to U16 level. This encourages more team dynamic & avoids matches being dominated by stronger players running the ball down the pitch. Smokeless Red (Carlow) - Posts: 15 - 09/04/2024 20:51:12 2536996 Link 0 |
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My one fear with that is that we end up letting the school team go the way our colts teams have,granted school is a better option in that you have a captive audience, I do like your idea of getting them all in the one school not sure how you would go about doing that but we have 4 secondary schools all within a few minutes of each other so something could be arranged, it's worth looking into and seeing what can be done. The danger with putting all our eggs in one basket is that there is very little correlation between junior players and eventually senior players, this has been proven and tbh puts the whole idea of dev squads into question be they at school or county, this was conducted over a number of years and many sports " Junior performance has very little predictive value for later senior performance. The fnding is robust across diferent populations (e.g., types of sports, sexes, geographical regions). Efects vary across junior age categories: The younger the junior age category, the lower the correlation between junior and senior performance" Brian Fenton,Tony scullion, bomber Liston, conor mcmanus,Kevin mcmanaman, Johnny doyle,Lee keegan, Bernard brogan, Martin mchugh, John mcdermot, Philip Jordan, conor Gormley,Damien comer, the list is endless of top class players who couldn't make minor for their county. I probably would have agreed with you on the club a few years ago but from experience I now feel that until that level rises it will be very hard to achieve anything, naas cbs is the leading school in leinster but kildare underage club football is a very high standard I think you need both, school football doesn't always lead to county football but stong club players do. Wexford and longford have strong schools but both play senior at div 4. I'd like to see the county board do the football Forum again but this time come with a blank sheet of paper bring in people who are active in coaching and playing and any other interested parties and actually flesh out some way forward, create a football committee but not filled with yes men who rubber stamp whatever is thrown at them, that last one was an opportunity lost, a packed room of football people all wanting to see football progress and they worked at cutting the numbers down instead of seeing the opportunity it offered. There are loads of people out there with ideas that could work or are atleast worth discussing Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1595 - 09/04/2024 22:29:59 2537016 Link 0 |
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Hard to think that St Mary's Academy, the largest boys school in the county given the hinterland of EO, Blues, Askea, Graigue, T/land, Pal, ballinabranagh, Arles etc and maybe a few stragglers from other clubs, can't put together a strong football team? I know the point used to be made that it is at a disadvantage that is has no on site pitch - there is a major redevelopment planned, surely an all weather pitch could be included? Anyway it has access to CTHC which has good facilities. There are a few teacher's on the staff there who are strong football men, but the CB could boost this with proper resources and maybe financial support. Knockbeg is a Laois football academy, and seems to attract lads there for the, football but there's always a few,Carlow,lads, and growing in numbers out there as I understand it. Bainisteoir (National) - Posts: 540 - 10/04/2024 00:24:13 2537023 Link 0 |
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Looking at Leinster Gaa website I see Carlow CBS won the South Leinster Senior football title this year and beat Bunclody and Eniscorthy along the way in B. I see.Presentation College had a decent running hurling. This website tells a lot about the number of games that Carlow schools plays competitively in both hurling and football and the level also, for example there is C and D competitions. The idea of hot housing students at 11 or 14 or 16 will not happen at secondary level. Parents will not stand for that! Ask a teacher and they will tell you that they have enough on their plate to teach as it is. They will also tell you that it is very difficult to get students released from class due to all sorts of pressures for sports during term time. As a parent I would not stand for my sons being hothoused for GAA games. I have sent my sons to a school to get a good education first and foremost and sport is totally secondary in my view. The idea of taking the best from 4 schools in Carlow town and putting them into one team has been done on numeroua occasions in the past and has not worked. This has happened in both football and hurling in Carlow in recent years. Taking kids at a young age and hothousing them and expecting them to be great players as a result of that has been shown not to work, or rather the percentage of those who make it all the way to Senior is miniscule. Perhaps if someone has time they might look at the number of current players to see what number graduated from say colts to minor, and from minor to u 20 and then to Senior. I think we would be.looking at remodelling what we do based on our research. I agree that it is time for the net of ideas to be spread and for interested parties who can and will work on initiatives to be asked to come together for BOTH codes and not just football. That would be the County Board being proactive. Hurling is only barely hanging on too. carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1821 - 10/04/2024 17:44:06 2537193 Link 0 |