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I think an argument can be certainly be made that football in Carlow Town doesn't have the participation levels at adult level that it should.
Between the 3 Town clubs combined, you only have 6 sides at adult level (EO 3, Blues 2, Askea 1).
Eire Og this year alone have 9 juvenile sides between u11 and u17.
Eire Og should probably have 5 adult teams if they consistently get those numbers at juvenile. In comparison, St Mullins have 3 adult sides in hurling with around 50% less participation than EO do at juvenile level.
Of course, losing lads as they get older is going to happen, but it would seem this is happening at a greater level in Eire Og, just going off the numbers.
Eire Og in fairness, probably aren't too worried by that, as long as they can keep the players who have potential to go on and play Senior/Intermediate. I think this would be the same for any other club in their position.
The question is, if you took a third of those juvenile players at Eire Og and scattered them The Blues and Askea, would they be able to bring through more players to adult level and increase the standard of football in both clubs? Does either club have the resources/coaching to take advantage of having greater numbers?
TaosHum (Carlow) - Posts: 240 - 18/10/2023 08:40:36
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Replying To Collio: "Go on keep going it's funny to see you ramble on about it. Picking and choosing your examples to suit your agenda. What about Portlaoise and Naas two towns with only one club. But again that wouldn't suit your agenda so you don't want to talk about that." Yes, you are 100% right. And Laois are in Division Four. Just like us. Another county wasting its resources.
Kildare, meanwhile, are the biggest underachievers in the GAA.
Thanks for proving my point.
CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 652 - 18/10/2023 11:38:18
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Replying To TaosHum: "I think an argument can be certainly be made that football in Carlow Town doesn't have the participation levels at adult level that it should.
Between the 3 Town clubs combined, you only have 6 sides at adult level (EO 3, Blues 2, Askea 1).
Eire Og this year alone have 9 juvenile sides between u11 and u17.
Eire Og should probably have 5 adult teams if they consistently get those numbers at juvenile. In comparison, St Mullins have 3 adult sides in hurling with around 50% less participation than EO do at juvenile level.
Of course, losing lads as they get older is going to happen, but it would seem this is happening at a greater level in Eire Og, just going off the numbers.
Eire Og in fairness, probably aren't too worried by that, as long as they can keep the players who have potential to go on and play Senior/Intermediate. I think this would be the same for any other club in their position.
The question is, if you took a third of those juvenile players at Eire Og and scattered them The Blues and Askea, would they be able to bring through more players to adult level and increase the standard of football in both clubs? Does either club have the resources/coaching to take advantage of having greater numbers?" This is a good post. Thank you.
"Eire Og in fairness, probably aren't too worried by that."
You are 100% correct here. They aren't worried. Which is why the County Board needs to step in.
Six adult teams in a town of 27,000 (minus a few thousand in Graigue) is shocking, when you consider that St Mullins has a pick of about 1,200 (at most) and can field three.
"Eire Og this year alone have 9 juvenile sides between u11 and u17." That's around 200 players. So it suggests only about 1 in 10 stick around for adult football. Pure madness.
I understand that towns are more transient than rural areas, and. have less sense of place. But that's still very, very stark.
CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 652 - 18/10/2023 11:44:22
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Replying To Barrowsider: "Slightly different down there, I think the John mitchels team of the 50s basically all came from the one street, but they have all existed a long time. There is a thriving gaa community in kerry too it must be added, better structures in place, it would be very hard to come in after the fact and create a whole new system, the exemptions would make it pointless, I do happen to think there is space for a strong club in town to rival eire og I'm just not sure either of the current two have the capacity to achieve it. Together they might, it seems a no brainer to me, newbridge have two strong clubs, long term we will end up a one club town and then you will see 10+ in a rows done like portlaoise." From 1990-2000, two different Carlow clubs won 6 Leinster's in nine years between them.
Both O'Hanrahan's and Eire Og won senior county championships, u21s and minors - and Asca were a good intermediate team (losing at least one final).
The town population then (14,000) was half what it is now.
Repeating it again: the issue in Carlow Town is that one club has been allowed suck up the whole town. At the very least transfers *to* Eire Og could be banned to give the other two clubs a chance. Because a big problem seems to be the fact the Blues and Asca's best juveniles are being poached by Eire Og.
CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 652 - 18/10/2023 11:51:46
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Replying To CARPS: "Yes, you are 100% right. And Laois are in Division Four. Just like us. Another county wasting its resources.
Kildare, meanwhile, are the biggest underachievers in the GAA.
Thanks for proving my point." Ah yes Kerry are the most successful team in the country because Tralee has a lot of clubs. Correlation does not equal causation but I doubt you understand that.
Collio (Carlow) - Posts: 31 - 18/10/2023 14:48:16
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Replying To CARPS: "From 1990-2000, two different Carlow clubs won 6 Leinster's in nine years between them.
Both O'Hanrahan's and Eire Og won senior county championships, u21s and minors - and Asca were a good intermediate team (losing at least one final).
The town population then (14,000) was half what it is now.
Repeating it again: the issue in Carlow Town is that one club has been allowed suck up the whole town. At the very least transfers *to* Eire Og could be banned to give the other two clubs a chance. Because a big problem seems to be the fact the Blues and Asca's best juveniles are being poached by Eire Og." Define the term 'poached' I wouldn't consider someone who wants to move to a more successful club from a club who clearly does not have the structures in place to produce good underage teams as poached, it's down to the individual not the club. It is right? Maybe not, but it's certainly not eire Ógs fault that young people want to be a part of a successful club instead of a club that is struggling. If you're an outsider moving to carlow are you going to send your child to the club with the best facilities and reigning senior champions or the clubs who are Junior A? Success is what attracts these players not the so called poaching that you're alluding to.
Collio (Carlow) - Posts: 31 - 18/10/2023 14:58:05
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Replying To Collio: "Define the term 'poached' I wouldn't consider someone who wants to move to a more successful club from a club who clearly does not have the structures in place to produce good underage teams as poached, it's down to the individual not the club. It is right? Maybe not, but it's certainly not eire Ógs fault that young people want to be a part of a successful club instead of a club that is struggling. If you're an outsider moving to carlow are you going to send your child to the club with the best facilities and reigning senior champions or the clubs who are Junior A? Success is what attracts these players not the so called poaching that you're alluding to." It would come down to catchment area for me, if there drawing in lads outside their catchment questions would have to be asked but if Carlow town is a free for all then nothing really can be done.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 18/10/2023 15:15:48
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Replying To Collio: "Define the term 'poached' I wouldn't consider someone who wants to move to a more successful club from a club who clearly does not have the structures in place to produce good underage teams as poached, it's down to the individual not the club. It is right? Maybe not, but it's certainly not eire Ógs fault that young people want to be a part of a successful club instead of a club that is struggling. If you're an outsider moving to carlow are you going to send your child to the club with the best facilities and reigning senior champions or the clubs who are Junior A? Success is what attracts these players not the so called poaching that you're alluding to." You're Eire Og's PR man and you want what's best for Eire Og.
I want what's best for Carlow. And having one club with an unrestricted pick of almost half the county is not good for Carlow.
CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 652 - 18/10/2023 19:25:49
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Replying To Collio: "Ah yes Kerry are the most successful team in the country because Tralee has a lot of clubs. Correlation does not equal causation but I doubt you understand that." Kilkenny has three senior hurling clubs... Like Tralee, it enforces catchment areas.
I'd rather be taking inspiration from Kerry and Kilkenny than from Leix and Kildare.
CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 652 - 18/10/2023 19:31:44
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Replying To CARPS: "From 1990-2000, two different Carlow clubs won 6 Leinster's in nine years between them.
Both O'Hanrahan's and Eire Og won senior county championships, u21s and minors - and Asca were a good intermediate team (losing at least one final).
The town population then (14,000) was half what it is now.
Repeating it again: the issue in Carlow Town is that one club has been allowed suck up the whole town. At the very least transfers *to* Eire Og could be banned to give the other two clubs a chance. Because a big problem seems to be the fact the Blues and Asca's best juveniles are being poached by Eire Og." Yes football in town at that time was strong two senior teams one intermediate team, now one senior team two juniors teams, who's fault is it that o'hanrahans and asca didn't keep their underage going, both have lost a lot of their gene pool, asca had no underage at all for years as far as I know until a few clubmen got it going, they managed to get one decent minor team but very little coming behind it, o hanrahans haven't fielded at minor in a few years now and are struggling down the age grades too. When times are good you have to put the work in at your underage, so you can keep refilling the ranks each year, adding one or two if that drys up you are in big trouble, things are very fluid from nursery to 13s players move around, that is the most crucial part in terms of recruiting players having the younger ages as well run as is possible with as many volunteers as you can find.
I think you're conveniently leaving out the rise of Palatine in all this, they are fielding two teams at all ages 3-4 at 11s Palatine didn't have those numbers 20 years ago so focusing in on eire og is not helpful at all, take the minor championship of 2022 eire og only had 11 born in 05 Palatine pretty much the same asca probably 6 tinryland 4-5 where are all the other 05 players, someone is missing them! Participation levels in urban areas is declining and small clubs are feeling the brunt of that more so. Rather than pointing the finger at the neighbouring clubs maybe the town clubs should be sitting down and trying to bring up Participation in general. I don't think any club wants to see another go out of business and if they do then it will come to them eventually too.
Asca and o hanrahans should merge in my opinion, long term neither will survive as viable entities, I believe kilbride/ballon/cocks should merge too and keep those st martins boys together. Davits likewise should also be a senior Club, we should be looking to create strong healthy clubs that can compete with the big clubs, rather than looking to hold back the likes of eire og emulate them.
I think you have the wrong answer to this problem
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1625 - 18/10/2023 19:34:29
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Replying To Barrowsider: "Yes football in town at that time was strong two senior teams one intermediate team, now one senior team two juniors teams, who's fault is it that o'hanrahans and asca didn't keep their underage going, both have lost a lot of their gene pool, asca had no underage at all for years as far as I know until a few clubmen got it going, they managed to get one decent minor team but very little coming behind it, o hanrahans haven't fielded at minor in a few years now and are struggling down the age grades too. When times are good you have to put the work in at your underage, so you can keep refilling the ranks each year, adding one or two if that drys up you are in big trouble, things are very fluid from nursery to 13s players move around, that is the most crucial part in terms of recruiting players having the younger ages as well run as is possible with as many volunteers as you can find.
I think you're conveniently leaving out the rise of Palatine in all this, they are fielding two teams at all ages 3-4 at 11s Palatine didn't have those numbers 20 years ago so focusing in on eire og is not helpful at all, take the minor championship of 2022 eire og only had 11 born in 05 Palatine pretty much the same asca probably 6 tinryland 4-5 where are all the other 05 players, someone is missing them! Participation levels in urban areas is declining and small clubs are feeling the brunt of that more so. Rather than pointing the finger at the neighbouring clubs maybe the town clubs should be sitting down and trying to bring up Participation in general. I don't think any club wants to see another go out of business and if they do then it will come to them eventually too.
Asca and o hanrahans should merge in my opinion, long term neither will survive as viable entities, I believe kilbride/ballon/cocks should merge too and keep those st martins boys together. Davits likewise should also be a senior Club, we should be looking to create strong healthy clubs that can compete with the big clubs, rather than looking to hold back the likes of eire og emulate them.
I think you have the wrong answer to this problem" Palatine won an U21 championship in the 1990s. So they were hardly struggling at underage back then.
"Rather than pointing the finger at the neighbouring clubs maybe the town clubs should be sitting down and trying to bring up Participation in general. I don't think any club wants to see another go out of business and if they do then it will come to them eventually too."
- If Eire Og doesn't want to see Asca and O'Hanrahan's weakened - why does it keep taking their players?
CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 652 - 19/10/2023 11:47:46
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Replying To Barrowsider: "Yes football in town at that time was strong two senior teams one intermediate team, now one senior team two juniors teams, who's fault is it that o'hanrahans and asca didn't keep their underage going, both have lost a lot of their gene pool, asca had no underage at all for years as far as I know until a few clubmen got it going, they managed to get one decent minor team but very little coming behind it, o hanrahans haven't fielded at minor in a few years now and are struggling down the age grades too. When times are good you have to put the work in at your underage, so you can keep refilling the ranks each year, adding one or two if that drys up you are in big trouble, things are very fluid from nursery to 13s players move around, that is the most crucial part in terms of recruiting players having the younger ages as well run as is possible with as many volunteers as you can find.
I think you're conveniently leaving out the rise of Palatine in all this, they are fielding two teams at all ages 3-4 at 11s Palatine didn't have those numbers 20 years ago so focusing in on eire og is not helpful at all, take the minor championship of 2022 eire og only had 11 born in 05 Palatine pretty much the same asca probably 6 tinryland 4-5 where are all the other 05 players, someone is missing them! Participation levels in urban areas is declining and small clubs are feeling the brunt of that more so. Rather than pointing the finger at the neighbouring clubs maybe the town clubs should be sitting down and trying to bring up Participation in general. I don't think any club wants to see another go out of business and if they do then it will come to them eventually too.
Asca and o hanrahans should merge in my opinion, long term neither will survive as viable entities, I believe kilbride/ballon/cocks should merge too and keep those st martins boys together. Davits likewise should also be a senior Club, we should be looking to create strong healthy clubs that can compete with the big clubs, rather than looking to hold back the likes of eire og emulate them.
I think you have the wrong answer to this problem" As for your points about mergers. Yes, can see logic there. Especially in the St Martin's case. You could actually make a strong dual club, by merging with Burren, along the lines of Mt Leinster Rangers.
The Leighlin parish issue is complicated by a lot of hatred, and the fact that Old Leighlin have been a successful stand alone senior club for the last 25 years. Also the Naomh Brid experience doesn't help. Although that has been crippled by the three footballs clubs, in reality.
Leighlinbridge are clearly going nowhere, but Ballinabranna do have the numbers if they could get their act together.
CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 652 - 19/10/2023 13:16:04
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Replying To CARPS: "Palatine won an U21 championship in the 1990s. So they were hardly struggling at underage back then.
"Rather than pointing the finger at the neighbouring clubs maybe the town clubs should be sitting down and trying to bring up Participation in general. I don't think any club wants to see another go out of business and if they do then it will come to them eventually too."
- If Eire Og doesn't want to see Asca and O'Hanrahan's weakened - why does it keep taking their players?" That was pal/asca that won the 21s title.
I actually don't think poaching is the issue you're making it out to be. And if you have your own house in order it's definitely not an issue. If you don't lads are going to want to leave. The transfer system in gaa allows clubs to be as bad as they like and then gives them the power to stop lads leaving. That's broken. Clubs should be held to account. If you don't meet set criteria then transfers should be open. Again for me this is all about participation, we should no stop players from participating in gaa.
I think there are other obvious mergers, the town one is probably the standout one. I think there has always been a case there of one watching the other to see who fails first. Ballon and the cocks probably feel they can make intermediate without joining up, kilbride are the poor relation in that arrangement, it would really benefit them.
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1625 - 19/10/2023 14:36:30
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Replying To Barrowsider: "That was pal/asca that won the 21s title.
I actually don't think poaching is the issue you're making it out to be. And if you have your own house in order it's definitely not an issue. If you don't lads are going to want to leave. The transfer system in gaa allows clubs to be as bad as they like and then gives them the power to stop lads leaving. That's broken. Clubs should be held to account. If you don't meet set criteria then transfers should be open. Again for me this is all about participation, we should no stop players from participating in gaa.
I think there are other obvious mergers, the town one is probably the standout one. I think there has always been a case there of one watching the other to see who fails first. Ballon and the cocks probably feel they can make intermediate without joining up, kilbride are the poor relation in that arrangement, it would really benefit them." There were only two Asca players on that team. One was a very good midfielder and the other was the goalkeeper.
At the very least, I do think juvenile players should not be allowed to transfer to Eire Og from other clubs. If a player is unhappy at Asca, let them go to the Blues, Tinryland or Pal. Or in Blues case, Asca, Tinryland or Pal.
At least this would be some sort of a step in the right direction, to spread players around.
CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 652 - 19/10/2023 20:14:58
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Replying To CARPS: "There were only two Asca players on that team. One was a very good midfielder and the other was the goalkeeper.
At the very least, I do think juvenile players should not be allowed to transfer to Eire Og from other clubs. If a player is unhappy at Asca, let them go to the Blues, Tinryland or Pal. Or in Blues case, Asca, Tinryland or Pal.
At least this would be some sort of a step in the right direction, to spread players around." I'd agree with that, if a club has a certain amount of registered players then transfers in should not be allowed, I think that's fair and implementable, the isolated player already works like that so the full transfer should be no different.
I think there would have had to be 5 players on that combo team as that would explain the name change, other than that they would just be isolated players and the club name stays the same
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1625 - 20/10/2023 11:12:20
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Replying To Barrowsider: "I'd agree with that, if a club has a certain amount of registered players then transfers in should not be allowed, I think that's fair and implementable, the isolated player already works like that so the full transfer should be no different.
I think there would have had to be 5 players on that combo team as that would explain the name change, other than that they would just be isolated players and the club name stays the same" There were two. I know that for a fact. The goalkeeper and the midfielder. There might have been one sub also. But definitely only two started the games. I think they beat O'Hanrahan's in the final that year (I could be wrong - it could have been Eire Og. But was definitely one of them).
U21/u20 is a funny grade. Pal won one and it backboned a strong senior side for a decade or more. Myshall won two-in-a-row in 2010 & 2011 and it yielded very little.
Best of luck to Eire Og, Clonmore and St Mullins tomorrow.
All three are more than capable of winning. Mick Dempsey up against Eire Og again is an interesting dynamic, given what we have been discussing. You'd have to believe they have too much for St Joseph's. Albeit Tinryland were so poor in the county final that it's hard to know the form-line.
CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 652 - 20/10/2023 17:59:38
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Well done to Eire Og tonight. Fabulous game. Superb football from both sides. Great win.
No reason why they can't go all the way now.
Went to all three games today. The defeats for Clonmore and St Mullin's proved, in my opinion, that we should be looking at reducing our grades to six teams, next year.
Imagine if Palatine were the intermediate champions next year? They could win Leinster. Or if, for example, Kildavin were the junior winners? Again would have a serious chance.
SFC: Bagenalstown, Eire Og, Mount Leinster, Old Leighlin, Rathvily, Tinryland,
IFC: Ballinabranna, Clonmore, Eire Og B, Fenagh, Palatine, St Patrick's
JFC A: Fighting Cocks, Grange, Myshall, Kilbride, Kildavin, St Mullin's
JFC B: Asca, Ballon, Leighlinbridge, O'Hanrahan's, Palatine B, Tinryland B
Every team plays each other. Top 4 go into semis (like in the hurling). To avoid dead rubbers, bottom side is automatically relegated if it finishes more than two points off the 5th team. If not, a playoff. That should mean they have an incentive to keep playing to the end.
CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 652 - 21/10/2023 21:08:34
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Replying To CARPS: "There were two. I know that for a fact. The goalkeeper and the midfielder. There might have been one sub also. But definitely only two started the games. I think they beat O'Hanrahan's in the final that year (I could be wrong - it could have been Eire Og. But was definitely one of them).
U21/u20 is a funny grade. Pal won one and it backboned a strong senior side for a decade or more. Myshall won two-in-a-row in 2010 & 2011 and it yielded very little.
Best of luck to Eire Og, Clonmore and St Mullins tomorrow.
All three are more than capable of winning. Mick Dempsey up against Eire Og again is an interesting dynamic, given what we have been discussing. You'd have to believe they have too much for St Joseph's. Albeit Tinryland were so poor in the county final that it's hard to know the form-line." Didn't go to any of the games, eire of struggled over a team who only played last Sunday and celebrated well by all accounts, clonmore and mullins both beaten too, when you consider our small 8 team championships two fairly disappointing results.
I thought asca had a forward on that team too but wouldn't be certain on that. I would imagine myshall didn't benefit as football is not the focus down there.
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1625 - 21/10/2023 23:06:02
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Replying To CARPS: "Well done to Eire Og tonight. Fabulous game. Superb football from both sides. Great win.
No reason why they can't go all the way now.
Went to all three games today. The defeats for Clonmore and St Mullin's proved, in my opinion, that we should be looking at reducing our grades to six teams, next year.
Imagine if Palatine were the intermediate champions next year? They could win Leinster. Or if, for example, Kildavin were the junior winners? Again would have a serious chance.
SFC: Bagenalstown, Eire Og, Mount Leinster, Old Leighlin, Rathvily, Tinryland,
IFC: Ballinabranna, Clonmore, Eire Og B, Fenagh, Palatine, St Patrick's
JFC A: Fighting Cocks, Grange, Myshall, Kilbride, Kildavin, St Mullin's
JFC B: Asca, Ballon, Leighlinbridge, O'Hanrahan's, Palatine B, Tinryland B
Every team plays each other. Top 4 go into semis (like in the hurling). To avoid dead rubbers, bottom side is automatically relegated if it finishes more than two points off the 5th team. If not, a playoff. That should mean they have an incentive to keep playing to the end." I'd differ slightly on this. I don't disagree with smaller championships but I'd have a larger intermediate as I think the more tested a team is there the better for senior.
I'd remove 2nd teams from all championships and instead have second teams in a reserve championship. The only exception would be for junior c which is social anyway so teams could play a 3rd team there. I think having second teams playing intermediate or junior does nothing for football in the rest of the county.
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1625 - 23/10/2023 16:51:13
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Replying To Barrowsider: "Didn't go to any of the games, eire of struggled over a team who only played last Sunday and celebrated well by all accounts, clonmore and mullins both beaten too, when you consider our small 8 team championships two fairly disappointing results.
I thought asca had a forward on that team too but wouldn't be certain on that. I would imagine myshall didn't benefit as football is not the focus down there." Give them a small bit of credit. They outscored Joseph's 1-13 to 2-4 from the 40 minute. That's 14 scores to 6. Fairly dominant I'd say. St mullins were unlucky, missed a lot of chances. Can't comment on the clonmore game as I didn't see it. Unlike some posters. Ahem.
Overthebar53 (Carlow) - Posts: 227 - 23/10/2023 22:59:31
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