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Carlow GAA thread

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Replying To supersub15:  "There is no manager from Jim Gavin to Jack O' Connor to James Horan to Jimmy Mc Guinness that has the ability to improve Carlow's football fortunes in the slightest, as for Stephen Poucher, not a chance, no disrespect to the man who was / is a genuine sincere person but he was mythical and coincidental, so coincidentally he blended well with T O'B.

We are the continued victims of our own misfortunes, that won't change while the tail wags the dog, negative mind sets doesn't help either.

Having said all that isn't there 8 or 9 other counties in dire straits as well so who knows, etc, etc, etc."
"There is no manager from Jim Gavin to Jack O' Connor to James Horan to Jimmy Mc Guinness that has the ability to improve Carlow's football fortunes in the slightest."

You really think Jimmy McGuinness would not be able to get us to sixth in Division Four? That's quite a claim.

He'd at least set us up tactically, which the present management is not doing. The game-plan is like something from an under 15 team.

But, anyway, the solution is not Jim Gavin. What we need is a local manager, or someone who knows the county well, paired with an innovative coach from outside. Or better again if we had both from inside Carlow, but there's no obvious choice for the second option now.

Who are the other 8 or 9 counties who are second from bottom in Division Four? Do tell us. Another remarkable claim.

CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 377 - 21/03/2022 08:47:43    2406081

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Replying To CARPS:  "I take no pleasure in losing. Rather I feel someone has to point out how we have shot ourselves in the foot. These journeyman managers have consistently failed in Carlow. Where we are now is back to the Rainbow era, when essentially the same pool of players were operating at club level that Turlough and Poacher picked from.

Ask yourself why only 4 players who lined out against Kildare were available yesterday? Do you think so many of those lads would have retired if there was a proper set up? Murphy and Lawler chose football while Poacher was there. Now they are hurling. Why is that?

Meanwhile, a game of two halves that we lost by 11 points (double scores?) Where did you buy your glasses? Suggest normal lens next time, not rose tinted."
We aren't in the Rainbow era its 10 years on we are in the Niall Carew era, an era that first inherited the last of our most successful generation in years faired ok but time stops for no man and such was the case for those involved. There was only one thing to do at the beginning of this year which saw a turn over of 16 panel members leave the squad and that was to start the building process for a new very young panel. Thankfully we still have 4 players from 2018 to help integrate the new players as we transition.

Why did only 4 players from the Kildare game in 2018 were available yesterday? Because that panel were at their peak of a long tough career building for success and are now too old. By the way that panel experience plenty of poor results too in their time as Rome wasn't built in a day, maybe if you took the management reins you might have instant success as you seem to have all the answers.

Carlow v Kildare 2018:

R Molloy - 36 years old retired

C Crowley - 34 years old retired
S Redmond - 33 years old retired
C Lawlor - 30 years old, no longer fast enough for county football and committed to county hurlers,

J Morrissey - 23 years young still playing.
D St Ledger - 33 years old retired
C Moran - 28 years old retired early

S Murphy - 30 years old committed to county hurlers as was the case prior to joining footballers in 2017
E Ruth - 31 years old still playing

S Gannon - 33 years old retired
D Foley - 30 years old still playing
D Walshe - 28 years old retired early

P Broderick - 36 years old retired
D O'Brien - 28 years old still playing
J Murphy - 36 years old retired

Subs: D Moran 32 years old retired, C Lawler 30 years old retired , L Walker 29 years old transferred to Graiguecullen, BJ Molloy 33 years old retired.

Have you any issue with any of these lads above retiring? Did they commit enough to the cause for your liking? Training 4 or 5 nights a week for over decade when success never seemed achievable in div 4 but they hung in and eventually reaped the reward. They have all moved on and its time for you to do the same as it will remain in the past.

Carlowrising (Carlow) - Posts: 63 - 21/03/2022 11:44:17    2406141

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Replying To Carlowrising:  "We aren't in the Rainbow era its 10 years on we are in the Niall Carew era, an era that first inherited the last of our most successful generation in years faired ok but time stops for no man and such was the case for those involved. There was only one thing to do at the beginning of this year which saw a turn over of 16 panel members leave the squad and that was to start the building process for a new very young panel. Thankfully we still have 4 players from 2018 to help integrate the new players as we transition.

Why did only 4 players from the Kildare game in 2018 were available yesterday? Because that panel were at their peak of a long tough career building for success and are now too old. By the way that panel experience plenty of poor results too in their time as Rome wasn't built in a day, maybe if you took the management reins you might have instant success as you seem to have all the answers.

Carlow v Kildare 2018:

R Molloy - 36 years old retired

C Crowley - 34 years old retired
S Redmond - 33 years old retired
C Lawlor - 30 years old, no longer fast enough for county football and committed to county hurlers,

J Morrissey - 23 years young still playing.
D St Ledger - 33 years old retired
C Moran - 28 years old retired early

S Murphy - 30 years old committed to county hurlers as was the case prior to joining footballers in 2017
E Ruth - 31 years old still playing

S Gannon - 33 years old retired
D Foley - 30 years old still playing
D Walshe - 28 years old retired early

P Broderick - 36 years old retired
D O'Brien - 28 years old still playing
J Murphy - 36 years old retired

Subs: D Moran 32 years old retired, C Lawler 30 years old retired , L Walker 29 years old transferred to Graiguecullen, BJ Molloy 33 years old retired.

Have you any issue with any of these lads above retiring? Did they commit enough to the cause for your liking? Training 4 or 5 nights a week for over decade when success never seemed achievable in div 4 but they hung in and eventually reaped the reward. They have all moved on and its time for you to do the same as it will remain in the past."
I agree with a lot of the above .. but where are the 26 and 27 yr olds ? Where is c Blake , n Quinlan , c lawlor (All 27 now and playing club) d Walsh m furey (26 playing club)and these are just a few.
why did c Lawler and s Murphy switch at the twilight of their careers to div 2 hurling from div 4 football ? And both players doing very well and neither slow !! ..
l walker gone to Graiguecullen is poor form but why ?..
this is beyond blaming managers and selectors , it's time for a review from outside.. a full review of the loss of players from underage to step up to senior level, including why players don't want to play for county .. some are students that can't get expenses on time , others believe you have to be attached to certain clubs and others can't commit to the number of days a week group training required .. and if you commit to county you could play very little football if you are not starting and can't play club while on county panel ..
At underage the level of interest in football is still very good .. the dropout is huge to adult level..
Let's see how we can work around these issues and try to bring back some pride in the county jersey..

Coldeye (Carlow) - Posts: 10 - 21/03/2022 19:02:27    2406318

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We have the worst scoring difference from all 4 divisions, not scoring enough and conceding big each game

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1356 - 21/03/2022 19:49:53    2406327

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Replying To CARPS:  ""There is no manager from Jim Gavin to Jack O' Connor to James Horan to Jimmy Mc Guinness that has the ability to improve Carlow's football fortunes in the slightest."

You really think Jimmy McGuinness would not be able to get us to sixth in Division Four? That's quite a claim.

He'd at least set us up tactically, which the present management is not doing. The game-plan is like something from an under 15 team.

But, anyway, the solution is not Jim Gavin. What we need is a local manager, or someone who knows the county well, paired with an innovative coach from outside. Or better again if we had both from inside Carlow, but there's no obvious choice for the second option now.

Who are the other 8 or 9 counties who are second from bottom in Division Four? Do tell us. Another remarkable claim."
The fact is we are not going to change anything, so there's no point in us getting stressed about it. There has been no glory days for Carlow senior football during the past 78 years, we gave out about it for a while 'till it quietened down a bit then we moved on, it sort of repeated itself every other year, and here we are squabbling again, should Carlow beat Wexford in their last game then all of a sudden there's promise and we move on again and so on.

The reason I said "There is no manager from Jim Gavin to Jack O' Connor to James Horan to Jimmy Mc Guinness that has the ability to improve Carlow's football fortunes in the slightest." is because there is no workable structure in place, likely retirements that may happen sooner rather than later and the is not being managed well it seems, that's just one observation, multiple replacements for those lads doesn't happen at the flick of a switch either.

If Poacher's reign is over and he's gone, so too is that Kildare game and it appears as if nothing has been learnt from it, except to say Carlow had no wide's throughout that game, none, zero, zilch, now it appears as if we are having more wide's than scores.

In 2011 Carlow beat Louth the Defacto LSF champions in DCP, we didn't progress from that victory either.
Naas senior football club completed the remaining stages of the championship without a manager, Joe Murphy is now their new manager someone I thought Carlow should have signed up.

Der Brennan left the Carlow management team to sign up for Kildare's Moorefield senior footballers. ??
Just wondering, nothing more, how would Carlow perform against Wexford in their last game of the league without a manager.??

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2596 - 21/03/2022 20:51:10    2406338

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Meant * Ger Brennan.*

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2596 - 22/03/2022 10:02:40    2406374

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Replying To CARPS:  ""There is no manager from Jim Gavin to Jack O' Connor to James Horan to Jimmy Mc Guinness that has the ability to improve Carlow's football fortunes in the slightest."

You really think Jimmy McGuinness would not be able to get us to sixth in Division Four? That's quite a claim.

He'd at least set us up tactically, which the present management is not doing. The game-plan is like something from an under 15 team.

But, anyway, the solution is not Jim Gavin. What we need is a local manager, or someone who knows the county well, paired with an innovative coach from outside. Or better again if we had both from inside Carlow, but there's no obvious choice for the second option now.

Who are the other 8 or 9 counties who are second from bottom in Division Four? Do tell us. Another remarkable claim."
If you go back and do a spot check over the past 40 years you will find the most likely counties to make up div. 4 would be Carlow, Wexford, Wicklow, Waterford, London, Leitrim Tipperary and Kilkenny, our own Carlow would most likely finish up 4th from the bottom most years. To put it into context there is no meaningful difference in finishing 3rd from the top, or bottom of the table spot at # 8 it simply means your confined to div. 4 for another year at least.
I have done a lot of soul searching over the past 20 years and I find Carlow has conceded more and scored less in the championship and to a lesser extent in the nfl

While you might blame it on the team manager I am inclined to blame it on the back door system as we took hammerings second time out, around the same time we went from 4th down to 7th in div. 4 and that's where we finished to day. Carlow are not on their own by the way, Leitrim are in div 4 for another year, Wicklow are back down so too are Laois, Longford survived the drop by beating Laois in their last game, and good luck to Longford.

The annual issue that I have is trying to understand how a few counties have found an almost permanent home in div. 4 for the past 40 years, give or take one or two here and there.

So blaming the manager is only a small part of a bigger problem.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2596 - 28/03/2022 10:47:09    2407661

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Replying To supersub15:  "If you go back and do a spot check over the past 40 years you will find the most likely counties to make up div. 4 would be Carlow, Wexford, Wicklow, Waterford, London, Leitrim Tipperary and Kilkenny, our own Carlow would most likely finish up 4th from the bottom most years. To put it into context there is no meaningful difference in finishing 3rd from the top, or bottom of the table spot at # 8 it simply means your confined to div. 4 for another year at least.
I have done a lot of soul searching over the past 20 years and I find Carlow has conceded more and scored less in the championship and to a lesser extent in the nfl

While you might blame it on the team manager I am inclined to blame it on the back door system as we took hammerings second time out, around the same time we went from 4th down to 7th in div. 4 and that's where we finished to day. Carlow are not on their own by the way, Leitrim are in div 4 for another year, Wicklow are back down so too are Laois, Longford survived the drop by beating Laois in their last game, and good luck to Longford.

The annual issue that I have is trying to understand how a few counties have found an almost permanent home in div. 4 for the past 40 years, give or take one or two here and there.

So blaming the manager is only a small part of a bigger problem.
"
The counties that you have mentioned here have accepted their fate long before the league even starts. Apathy has set in and there is no long term vision. When apathy sets into a county or club it takes strong leadership to take it out of the doldrums. That unfortunately is the hardest part. If there was a division 5 and say carlow got relegated , would anyone really care. Very few except the hard core GAA follower. But hey, who listens to them any more. See you in Division 4 next year.

roseyinthegarden (Wicklow) - Posts: 68 - 28/03/2022 15:58:36    2407805

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The problems with football in Carlow do go a lot deeper than who is the senior manager I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise, I've stated several times that the problems lie with the clubs, even the stronger clubs in Carlow have massive deficiencies compared to clubs in other counties, underage football here is extremely weak and no signs of any improvement, I don't think we have a good culture when it comes to developing the skills of the game, for many clubs fielding a team is already a victory in itself, unless we reimagine how we do football I can't see any real improvement in the short to medium term, no doubt a good senior manager can paper over the cracks for a while but it doesn't nothing to address the underlying issues, we are not alone either this whole section of the country will play their football in division 4 next year, Carlow laois wicklow wexford and waterford

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1356 - 29/03/2022 07:20:09    2407917

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Replying To roseyinthegarden:  "
Replying To supersub15:  "If you go back and do a spot check over the past 40 years you will find the most likely counties to make up div. 4 would be Carlow, Wexford, Wicklow, Waterford, London, Leitrim Tipperary and Kilkenny, our own Carlow would most likely finish up 4th from the bottom most years. To put it into context there is no meaningful difference in finishing 3rd from the top, or bottom of the table spot at # 8 it simply means your confined to div. 4 for another year at least.
I have done a lot of soul searching over the past 20 years and I find Carlow has conceded more and scored less in the championship and to a lesser extent in the nfl

While you might blame it on the team manager I am inclined to blame it on the back door system as we took hammerings second time out, around the same time we went from 4th down to 7th in div. 4 and that's where we finished to day. Carlow are not on their own by the way, Leitrim are in div 4 for another year, Wicklow are back down so too are Laois, Longford survived the drop by beating Laois in their last game, and good luck to Longford.

The annual issue that I have is trying to understand how a few counties have found an almost permanent home in div. 4 for the past 40 years, give or take one or two here and there.

So blaming the manager is only a small part of a bigger problem.
"
The counties that you have mentioned here have accepted their fate long before the league even starts. Apathy has set in and there is no long term vision. When apathy sets into a county or club it takes strong leadership to take it out of the doldrums. That unfortunately is the hardest part. If there was a division 5 and say carlow got relegated , would anyone really care. Very few except the hard core GAA follower. But hey, who listens to them any more. See you in Division 4 next year."
I totally understand your frustration knowing you had to vacate div.3 but spare a thought for Laois who dropped down with Wicklow.

I'm not convinced that any county has accepted their fate long before the league starts, or that apathy has set in and induced a no long term vision, thankfully apathy is not part of my make up that is more or less why I continue to question failure or lack of real progress, so if apathy sets in who appoints the strong leader, how many strong leaders would be required to take them out of the doldrums as you put it.

You ask about a mythical div. 5, I'll admit I don't know how to pass comment on that except to add, if no one seems to care one way or another who drops down from div. 3 or how long they stay in div. 4 then how can we expect them to care about who ends up in div. 5.

You are correct; no one cares not even the hard core followers, but keep the faith as apathy is an excuse for failure not the reason.

See you in div. 4 or 5.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2596 - 29/03/2022 16:09:45    2408162

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Replying To Barrowsider:  "The problems with football in Carlow do go a lot deeper than who is the senior manager I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise, I've stated several times that the problems lie with the clubs, even the stronger clubs in Carlow have massive deficiencies compared to clubs in other counties, underage football here is extremely weak and no signs of any improvement, I don't think we have a good culture when it comes to developing the skills of the game, for many clubs fielding a team is already a victory in itself, unless we reimagine how we do football I can't see any real improvement in the short to medium term, no doubt a good senior manager can paper over the cracks for a while but it doesn't nothing to address the underlying issues, we are not alone either this whole section of the country will play their football in division 4 next year, Carlow laois wicklow wexford and waterford"
In fairness from my recollection most posters here came down pretty hard on the manager especially if the manager appointed was not high profile, in our case (and other similar counties) the profile of the manager is only a small part of our problem, and yes the problems go deeper.

I'm inclined to disagree with you a bit when you say the problem lies with the clubs, perhaps a couple but certainly not all, you say, "even the stronger clubs in Carlow have massive deficiencies compared to clubs in other counties" I'm not doubting your knowledge or experiences in any way, however, the way I see it is, in Paddy Quirkes time with Myshall / Naomh Eoin or Mark Carpenter's time with O'Hanrahan's, or During MLR's time of dominance, (and they are still domineering) or during the glory years of Eire Og, and they too are still domineering, and for a small little club didn't Rathvilly keep plugging away, I drove across this year again to see the Co. final and I'm glad I did sure didn't Brendan Murphy play like a 25 year old at the height of his career. Go back a little bit further to Johnny Nevin's days did he not become a house hold name for his regular displays of brilliance with Carlow's senior footballers, was he not over 40 and still playing for Naomh Brid hurling club, where would you get it.

The reason I'm bringing the club scene into the debate is because they have made a mockery of the word Apathy, if there is such a word.
A lot of what you say is very true, like not having the culture when it comes to developing the skills of the game, underage development is crucial to counties like Carlow along with getting them to buy into Carlow's gaelic games and sticking with it, all of this is only the tip of the ice berg.

Brave decisions and courageous leadership needed badly.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2596 - 30/03/2022 08:29:04    2408244

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Only seeing this now, one club doesn't make a county, you can have good moments within a county and still have major problems, I think we will all watch with interest over the next few years to see how these new gpos work out with the clubs, participation and coach education are things the county is working on, results will take time to be seen and fair play to those clubs who invested in it, it's a fairly large financial commitment to undertake. There are clubs where positive developments have happened, asca have a thriving underage section now, I see they are fielding 2 under 13s teams this year and are fielding at all age groups, in a town that's saturated with sport it shows what can be done with some hard work by dedicated club men/women. Rathvilly seem to be doing good work at juvenile too winning both 15s and 17s division 2 last year, grange are working hard too for a small club they field at all age groups, I think that shows that there is definitely hard work going in at grass root level.
But for every good news story there are many more struggling, take a look at the results page on Carlow gaa and you will see the lack of competitive games

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1356 - 06/04/2022 12:47:28    2409948

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Replying To Barrowsider:  "Only seeing this now, one club doesn't make a county, you can have good moments within a county and still have major problems, I think we will all watch with interest over the next few years to see how these new gpos work out with the clubs, participation and coach education are things the county is working on, results will take time to be seen and fair play to those clubs who invested in it, it's a fairly large financial commitment to undertake. There are clubs where positive developments have happened, asca have a thriving underage section now, I see they are fielding 2 under 13s teams this year and are fielding at all age groups, in a town that's saturated with sport it shows what can be done with some hard work by dedicated club men/women. Rathvilly seem to be doing good work at juvenile too winning both 15s and 17s division 2 last year, grange are working hard too for a small club they field at all age groups, I think that shows that there is definitely hard work going in at grass root level.
But for every good news story there are many more struggling, take a look at the results page on Carlow gaa and you will see the lack of competitive games"
Part of the reason for for the one sided games is there is little interest from some clubs as they realise the Championship wont be starting until the end of August early September. Some clubs have even given walkovers already.I just cant get my head around this. Why can't the co. Board revert to the old structure of 2 weeks for hurling & then 2 weeks for football. The hurlers get the good summer weather again while the footballers head back to play Championship in Autumn. There is no way you can keep players training from Feb right through to October as they will lose interest not to mention the cost of a trainer.... another own goal by our county board

carlo (Carlow) - Posts: 142 - 07/04/2022 20:41:40    2410197

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Folks,

What is the story with O'Hanrahans? Apart from Walker going to Graiguecullen, they seem to have lost a lot of other players.

CmonAymonow (Laois) - Posts: 149 - 08/04/2022 11:47:59    2410230

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Replying To carlo:  "Part of the reason for for the one sided games is there is little interest from some clubs as they realise the Championship wont be starting until the end of August early September. Some clubs have even given walkovers already.I just cant get my head around this. Why can't the co. Board revert to the old structure of 2 weeks for hurling & then 2 weeks for football. The hurlers get the good summer weather again while the footballers head back to play Championship in Autumn. There is no way you can keep players training from Feb right through to October as they will lose interest not to mention the cost of a trainer.... another own goal by our county board"
Totally agree, the league should have started weeks ago and finished before May and start championship straight away, both club Football and Hurling championship could and should be finished by end of September.

Carlowrising (Carlow) - Posts: 63 - 08/04/2022 11:55:56    2410233

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Replying To Barrowsider:  "Only seeing this now, one club doesn't make a county, you can have good moments within a county and still have major problems, I think we will all watch with interest over the next few years to see how these new gpos work out with the clubs, participation and coach education are things the county is working on, results will take time to be seen and fair play to those clubs who invested in it, it's a fairly large financial commitment to undertake. There are clubs where positive developments have happened, asca have a thriving underage section now, I see they are fielding 2 under 13s teams this year and are fielding at all age groups, in a town that's saturated with sport it shows what can be done with some hard work by dedicated club men/women. Rathvilly seem to be doing good work at juvenile too winning both 15s and 17s division 2 last year, grange are working hard too for a small club they field at all age groups, I think that shows that there is definitely hard work going in at grass root level.
But for every good news story there are many more struggling, take a look at the results page on Carlow gaa and you will see the lack of competitive games"
A lot of your stuff here is encouraging, I'm a bit surprised that one or two seasoned posters have not been as descriptive as you have been, yes, Grange club is a credit to them, fully equipped lights included, Rathvilly similar from humble beginnings to where they are now. The disappointment comes from Tullow's St Patricks, a few short km's either side of Tullow is Grange on one side and Rathvilly on the other side both villages with a much smaller population yet they contribute greatly to Carlow football while St. Patricks just about keep the grass cut, sorry but that's the way I see it. St. Patricks has been in the doldrums for years, unce a upon a time they were the kingpins of Carlow football.

I said in a previous post that, brave decisions and courageous leadership needed badly along with that a top class PRO.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2596 - 08/04/2022 16:15:04    2410285

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Replying To supersub15:  "A lot of your stuff here is encouraging, I'm a bit surprised that one or two seasoned posters have not been as descriptive as you have been, yes, Grange club is a credit to them, fully equipped lights included, Rathvilly similar from humble beginnings to where they are now. The disappointment comes from Tullow's St Patricks, a few short km's either side of Tullow is Grange on one side and Rathvilly on the other side both villages with a much smaller population yet they contribute greatly to Carlow football while St. Patricks just about keep the grass cut, sorry but that's the way I see it. St. Patricks has been in the doldrums for years, unce a upon a time they were the kingpins of Carlow football.

I said in a previous post that, brave decisions and courageous leadership needed badly along with that a top class PRO."
Not all is doom and gloom ! Good win for minor hurlers and footballers against Down yesterday and against Wexfford in minor football. The under 20 hurlers are out after under performing against Westmeath while the under 20 footballers won the Andrew Corden Cup fo the first time against Wexford away from home.
Most clubs have excellent facilities and those that have employed a full time coach or are going to share a coach will prosper.
Participation levels will rise in those clubs, coaching will improve and standards will improve.
Rome wasn't built in a day !

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1698 - 10/04/2022 13:28:05    2410438

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Replying To carlowman:  "Not all is doom and gloom ! Good win for minor hurlers and footballers against Down yesterday and against Wexfford in minor football. The under 20 hurlers are out after under performing against Westmeath while the under 20 footballers won the Andrew Corden Cup fo the first time against Wexford away from home.
Most clubs have excellent facilities and those that have employed a full time coach or are going to share a coach will prosper.
Participation levels will rise in those clubs, coaching will improve and standards will improve.
Rome wasn't built in a day !"
Any win in any grade let it be football or hurling is always more than welcome especially those that you have mentioned, overall Wexford are no better or no worse than we are so while the victories are very welcome how do you measure them.
I fully understand that Rome wasn't built in a day, however its 78 years since Carlow's senior footballers made any real progress.
We had a disastrous nfl season finishing 2nd from the bottom you can't deny that, one year rolls into the next and so on.
The success of Carlow football is measured on the performance of its senior footballers.

You are still right though, its not all doom and gloom.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2596 - 10/04/2022 18:33:13    2410458

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Anyone know if James Doyle will be back for the hurlers for the McDonagh cup ?

carlovia (None) - Posts: 1471 - 11/04/2022 13:22:30    2410529

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Great performance against Meath on Saturday. Hopefully the hurlers are hitting form at the right time and have cleaned up the discipline.

Need to follow it up with a win against Kerry. With Antrim and Offaly away, they need to win both home games to have any chance of reaching the final.

TaosHum (Carlow) - Posts: 177 - 19/04/2022 08:34:52    2411472

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