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Why Cork Cant Win More All Irelands In Football

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Which ones? Every football county fields a hurling team."
Kilkenny field a football team. They arent good enough to play in the Leinster championship. They play in some league with some over the water teams. Most counties dont field any top standard of hurling team. That's why there is a tiered hurling championship that works very well. Wexford are a div4 Football team. We beat Wicklow, a div3 team, and lost by 8 points to Dublin in the next round. If a tier 4 hurling county played Limerick in a championship game the scoring difference would have been far more than 8 points. Tbh if a tier 2 hurling county got within 20 points of Limerick in a Championship game it would be good going. If the Hurling championship was structured the same as the football one there would be alot more than 1 county not entering. Most football counties do not give their hurling intercounty teams the same as their football counterparts. Financially, facilities, publicity, GDAs, any of it. Most hurling counties have decent enough football teams down the years. Dublin and Tipperary were provincial champions last year. Clare nearly got promoted to div1. Cork have won recent enough all Irelands. Galways footballers would have had more success than their hurlers over the last 30 odd years. Offaly have always prioritised both football and hurling pretty equally. Limerick have had some ok football teams lately and woyldnt be hammered by 20 or 30 points by anyone. Ourselves and Waterford were both in div4 but both held their own against div3 teams and werent hammered by div1 teams. We won a Leinster u21 title at football only 10 years ago and that after reaching an AISF in 2008. I think the top 9 hurling counties in general, aside from Kilkenny, budget nearly the same for their senior intercounty football squads per championship game played as they do for their hurling squads. And that's definitely not true in Donegal for example.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3450 - 25/09/2021 10:01:09    2382829

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Sligo is in North Connacht but clearly geography is an issue for you. Go north of the railway line at some point.

East Leinster? Wexford are there. Kildare are on the up. Meath are in Joe McDonagh. Wicklow are weak in both codes. Louth has always been a football county.

I'll say it again. Counties are promoting the game despite receiving no extra support from CC.

Talk of a Tier 2 isn't elitism. You are all over the place here. My county is opposed to it anyway."
I dont think anyone is arguing CC should do more financially to promote hurling in counties like Donegal. The southern counties eradicating hurling in the North is just not true. By the early 19th century hurling had pretty much died away everywhere except around Cork City, Wexford, East Galway and the glens of Antrim. Notice that takes in all 4 provinces.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3450 - 25/09/2021 10:04:41    2382832

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Kerry ? Kerry have made great strides in hurling. They were very competitive in the Joe McDonagh final this year. They are effectively locked out of the Munster Championship by the other five established counties. In Ulster Fermanagh won the Lory Meaghar beating Cavan. Tyrone lost to Mayo (North Connacht) in the final of the Nicky Rackard and Derry were beaten by Offaly in the final of the Christy Ring. There's more than lip service paid to hurling in those areas. I haven't mentioned Armagh. It too is a county where hurling is played and developed. Hurling at elite level is still effectively a closed shop. The last time the Liam McCarthy was won by a county for the first time was in 1981 by Offaly. Since then 4 counties have won the football title for the first time."
They haven't made great strides in hurling, for sure they've improved but to say they've made great strides is a total exaggeratiion. It'll be 50 years before they're competing for the big prizes, if ever.
The only real change we've seen in hurling is from Offaly, and they've gone backwards.

The only two real cross code breakthroughs I've seen in my lifetime are wexford (2000s) and tipp (the last 10 years), two football teams breaking through in counties where hurling is number 1.

Your last 2 sentences back up my point.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 957 - 25/09/2021 10:10:17    2382833

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Kerry ? Kerry have made great strides in hurling. They were very competitive in the Joe McDonagh final this year. They are effectively locked out of the Munster Championship by the other five established counties. In Ulster Fermanagh won the Lory Meaghar beating Cavan. Tyrone lost to Mayo (North Connacht) in the final of the Nicky Rackard and Derry were beaten by Offaly in the final of the Christy Ring. There's more than lip service paid to hurling in those areas. I haven't mentioned Armagh. It too is a county where hurling is played and developed. Hurling at elite level is still effectively a closed shop. The last time the Liam McCarthy was won by a county for the first time was in 1981 by Offaly. Since then 4 counties have won the football title for the first time."
"Hurling at elite level is still effectively a closed shop. The last time the Liam McCarthy was won by a county for the first time was in 1981 by Offaly. Since then 4 counties have won the football title for the first time."

Different All-Ireland winning counties over the last:

10 years - Hurling 5, Football4
25 years - Hurling 8, Football 8

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1546 - 25/09/2021 11:21:32    2382839

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Replying To Galway9801:  "They haven't made great strides in hurling, for sure they've improved but to say they've made great strides is a total exaggeratiion. It'll be 50 years before they're competing for the big prizes, if ever.
The only real change we've seen in hurling is from Offaly, and they've gone backwards.

The only two real cross code breakthroughs I've seen in my lifetime are wexford (2000s) and tipp (the last 10 years), two football teams breaking through in counties where hurling is number 1.

Your last 2 sentences back up my point."
Kerry have made great strides in hurling. As you said only Offaly have broken through in hurling. That substantiates my point about elite hurling being a closed shop. That is not down to county boards failing to promote it. The gap has always been huge between the elite and the rest. It will always be so. As for Tipp and Wexford both of those counties have always had a tradition of playing football. Wexford have 5 football All Ireland's and Tipp have 4. That is more than a lot of traditional football counties. Louth have three football All Ireland's. Viking has spoken very eloquently on this thread about how Wexford is a dual county. So is Tipp. Hurling may be stronger in those counties but there has always been a football tradition in both counties.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5707 - 25/09/2021 12:51:39    2382849

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "There you go again. Why should Ulster counties develop hurling when it folks down south who are responsible for killing off the game in the north in the first place. Sligo has 7 clubs and Donegal has 10 but whenever you see these counties play you'll get the elitists sneering about the quality. Sambo in Antrim has spoken about his negative experiences travelling down to Tipp or Cork."
Thought I'd replied yesterday to your initial comment about "snobs down south" and how apparently we killed off "your" game that was more like shinty. I must not have posted it properly.

Fact of the matter is that hurling had died off almost completely everywhere before the GAA was even founded. Trying to revive it was a large part of the reason by the Association was formed in the first place. A measure of the game's low ebb at the time is the fact that teams from only five counties entered the first All-Ireland Championship - Clare, Galway, Kilkenny, Tipperary, and Wexford.

Had "snobs down south" killed off the game in places like Cork, Limerick and Waterford to the extent that they couldn't field a team either? Or was the sad state of the game due to all other sorts of socio-economic and cultural factors? What do you think?

Also, probably fair to say that the hurling played everywhere at the time had more in common with shinty than it did with the hurling of today. It's just that the game evolved over the years. It's ludicrous to make a claim along the lines that people "down south" tried to force a different game altogether onto Donegal or anywhere else, when the game played "down south" at the time had more in common with the game played in Donegal than you seem to realise.

Finally, wouldn't surprise me if a football "elitist" from somewhere like Kerry, Tyrone or Mayo came to watch Wexford play Carlow (for example) in a football match, that they might comment about the relatively poor standard of it too, compared to what they're used to.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 793 - 25/09/2021 12:54:23    2382850

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Replying To Greengrass:  "That cuts both ways Galway 9801. I remember Tipp having to withdraw from a football qualifier because the Tipp county board fixed a full round of hurling championship matches some of which involved the Tipp footballers to be played three days before the football qualifier. The Tipp manager Andy Shortall resigned and his players backed him. You don't find the smugness and arrogant self satisfaction that you find amongst some hurling supporters prevalent amongst football supporters. I was at the National League Finals double header in Croke Park in 2019. The number of hurling supporters who upped and left after the hurling final beggared belief. The hurling final between Limerick and Waterford was dull to say the least. The football final between Kerry and Mayo was brilliant."
I wouldn't try dispute the fact that most of the people who were in for the hurling match didn't stay to watch the football as well.

But I'm just wondering did you make any observation at all on how many of the Kerry and Mayo football supporters were there in time to watch most or all of the hurling?

I don't know what the gap between the games was, but I'm willing to bet that if it was a half hour or more, very few of the football supporters would have been there in time to see any of the hurling match at all.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 793 - 25/09/2021 12:59:14    2382851

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  ""Hurling at elite level is still effectively a closed shop. The last time the Liam McCarthy was won by a county for the first time was in 1981 by Offaly. Since then 4 counties have won the football title for the first time."

Different All-Ireland winning counties over the last:

10 years - Hurling 5, Football4
25 years - Hurling 8, Football 8"
I said elite hurling is a closed shop. You fail to address that point. Maybe this will help you. Offaly were the last county to win the Liam McCarthy back in 1981. Before that Waterford were the last county to win the Liam McCarthy for the first time. They did that in 1948. Before that it was Galway i n 1923.
Since 1923 there have been 11 first time winners of the Sam Maguire.
Since 1948 there have been 7 first time winners of the Sam Maguire.
Since 1981 there have been 4 first time winners of the Sam Maguire.
The key phrase was "closed shop."

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5707 - 25/09/2021 13:01:35    2382852

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Thought I'd replied yesterday to your initial comment about "snobs down south" and how apparently we killed off "your" game that was more like shinty. I must not have posted it properly.

Fact of the matter is that hurling had died off almost completely everywhere before the GAA was even founded. Trying to revive it was a large part of the reason by the Association was formed in the first place. A measure of the game's low ebb at the time is the fact that teams from only five counties entered the first All-Ireland Championship - Clare, Galway, Kilkenny, Tipperary, and Wexford.

Had "snobs down south" killed off the game in places like Cork, Limerick and Waterford to the extent that they couldn't field a team either? Or was the sad state of the game due to all other sorts of socio-economic and cultural factors? What do you think?

Also, probably fair to say that the hurling played everywhere at the time had more in common with shinty than it did with the hurling of today. It's just that the game evolved over the years. It's ludicrous to make a claim along the lines that people "down south" tried to force a different game altogether onto Donegal or anywhere else, when the game played "down south" at the time had more in common with the game played in Donegal than you seem to realise.

Finally, wouldn't surprise me if a football "elitist" from somewhere like Kerry, Tyrone or Mayo came to watch Wexford play Carlow (for example) in a football match, that they might comment about the relatively poor standard of it too, compared to what they're used to."
It was still popular up north even after it declined in the south so your boys did kill it off.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 25/09/2021 14:31:45    2382863

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Replying To Viking66:  "I dont think anyone is arguing CC should do more financially to promote hurling in counties like Donegal. The southern counties eradicating hurling in the North is just not true. By the early 19th century hurling had pretty much died away everywhere except around Cork City, Wexford, East Galway and the glens of Antrim. Notice that takes in all 4 provinces."
It is true. Well known that southern counties didn't like Ulster hurling and helped kill it off. That attitude has continued over into football as well.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 25/09/2021 14:34:34    2382864

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Replying To Viking66:  "Kilkenny field a football team. They arent good enough to play in the Leinster championship. They play in some league with some over the water teams. Most counties dont field any top standard of hurling team. That's why there is a tiered hurling championship that works very well. Wexford are a div4 Football team. We beat Wicklow, a div3 team, and lost by 8 points to Dublin in the next round. If a tier 4 hurling county played Limerick in a championship game the scoring difference would have been far more than 8 points. Tbh if a tier 2 hurling county got within 20 points of Limerick in a Championship game it would be good going. If the Hurling championship was structured the same as the football one there would be alot more than 1 county not entering. Most football counties do not give their hurling intercounty teams the same as their football counterparts. Financially, facilities, publicity, GDAs, any of it. Most hurling counties have decent enough football teams down the years. Dublin and Tipperary were provincial champions last year. Clare nearly got promoted to div1. Cork have won recent enough all Irelands. Galways footballers would have had more success than their hurlers over the last 30 odd years. Offaly have always prioritised both football and hurling pretty equally. Limerick have had some ok football teams lately and woyldnt be hammered by 20 or 30 points by anyone. Ourselves and Waterford were both in div4 but both held their own against div3 teams and werent hammered by div1 teams. We won a Leinster u21 title at football only 10 years ago and that after reaching an AISF in 2008. I think the top 9 hurling counties in general, aside from Kilkenny, budget nearly the same for their senior intercounty football squads per championship game played as they do for their hurling squads. And that's definitely not true in Donegal for example."
Your tiered structure still involves a lot of one sided games so it doesn't work.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 25/09/2021 14:38:56    2382866

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Replying To Greengrass:  "
Replying To Cockney_Cat:  ""Hurling at elite level is still effectively a closed shop. The last time the Liam McCarthy was won by a county for the first time was in 1981 by Offaly. Since then 4 counties have won the football title for the first time."

Different All-Ireland winning counties over the last:

10 years - Hurling 5, Football4
25 years - Hurling 8, Football 8"
I said elite hurling is a closed shop. You fail to address that point. Maybe this will help you. Offaly were the last county to win the Liam McCarthy back in 1981. Before that Waterford were the last county to win the Liam McCarthy for the first time. They did that in 1948. Before that it was Galway i n 1923.
Since 1923 there have been 11 first time winners of the Sam Maguire.
Since 1948 there have been 7 first time winners of the Sam Maguire.
Since 1981 there have been 4 first time winners of the Sam Maguire.
The key phrase was "closed shop.""
Top tier hurling isnt a closed shop. There is promotion and relegation every year. It's up to counties to get good enough at it. And the CC should be facilitating and encouraging counties to grow and promote the game. Isnt the promotion of Gaelic Games, including hurling, what the Association was founded for in the 1st place?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3450 - 25/09/2021 14:53:47    2382867

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "It was still popular up north even after it declined in the south so your boys did kill it off."
The Association has equal representation from all counties. Who exactly are "your boys"?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3450 - 25/09/2021 14:54:46    2382868

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "It was still popular up north even after it declined in the south so your boys did kill it off."
The Association has equal representation from all counties. Who exactly are "your boys"?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3450 - 25/09/2021 15:10:40    2382871

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Kerry have made great strides in hurling. As you said only Offaly have broken through in hurling. That substantiates my point about elite hurling being a closed shop. That is not down to county boards failing to promote it. The gap has always been huge between the elite and the rest. It will always be so. As for Tipp and Wexford both of those counties have always had a tradition of playing football. Wexford have 5 football All Ireland's and Tipp have 4. That is more than a lot of traditional football counties. Louth have three football All Ireland's. Viking has spoken very eloquently on this thread about how Wexford is a dual county. So is Tipp. Hurling may be stronger in those counties but there has always been a football tradition in both counties."
I'm happy for Kerry to have as much success as possible but let's not forget there's a hurling tradition in North kerry. The only big change that's taken place in the hurling landscape is they've lost Offaly,temporarily at least.
There's probably the guts of 20 County boards in the country who if they're being honest, don't take hurling seriously. Maybe football people should look at that before lecturing Donal og Cusack or Jackie Tyrell on being open minded.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 957 - 25/09/2021 16:24:18    2382877

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Replying To Viking66:  "The Association has equal representation from all counties. Who exactly are "your boys"?"
And "kill"'what off? Something has to be alive first, before it can be killed?

Please explain, with supporting evidence, including examples of where this thing you claim has been killed off.

The APA referencing system is acceptable,

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 780 - 25/09/2021 16:29:42    2382878

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Replying To Viking66:  "The Association has equal representation from all counties. Who exactly are "your boys"?"
Really? Why does hurling get so much attention then?

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 25/09/2021 16:34:50    2382880

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Replying To Viking66:  "
Replying To Greengrass:  "[quote=Cockney_Cat:  ""Hurling at elite level is still effectively a closed shop. The last time the Liam McCarthy was won by a county for the first time was in 1981 by Offaly. Since then 4 counties have won the football title for the first time."

Different All-Ireland winning counties over the last:

10 years - Hurling 5, Football4
25 years - Hurling 8, Football 8"
I said elite hurling is a closed shop. You fail to address that point. Maybe this will help you. Offaly were the last county to win the Liam McCarthy back in 1981. Before that Waterford were the last county to win the Liam McCarthy for the first time. They did that in 1948. Before that it was Galway i n 1923.
Since 1923 there have been 11 first time winners of the Sam Maguire.
Since 1948 there have been 7 first time winners of the Sam Maguire.
Since 1981 there have been 4 first time winners of the Sam Maguire.
The key phrase was "closed shop.""
Top tier hurling isnt a closed shop. There is promotion and relegation every year. It's up to counties to get good enough at it. And the CC should be facilitating and encouraging counties to grow and promote the game. Isnt the promotion of Gaelic Games, including hurling, what the Association was founded for in the 1st place?"]It most certainly is Viking. Promotion and relegation doesn't affect the elite teams in the Liam McCarthy. Is there any relegation from the Munster Championship? Offaly broke in to the elite and now they are gone again. Name me another team sport that has only recorded two new winners of it's primary competition in the last 98 years.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5707 - 25/09/2021 16:38:36    2382881

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Our football final record is poor, we lost 16 finals & some of my Uncles felt the 1957 defeat to Louth was a final we could have won.
Personally the 1988 defeat to Meath after a replay was a killer. We had the extra man but the Men from the Royal county had a mental toughness second to none & were not for breaking on the day.

At present we should be doing better. We have plenty of clubs, players, etc & by sheer weight of numbers we should be more competitive.
Kerry have kept us in check most of the time, & hurling has been a strong draw for lads down through the decades.
Why we continually fail to field a competitive football team is an on going issue & one lads down here are invested in. There is a pool of talent to be tapped into, but in general we have the happy knack of shooting ourselves in the foot.

Finally on the double, I always thought Tipperary in 1895 & 1900.
Cork 1890 & 1990 were the only teams to win football & hurling in the same year, but I am open to correction.

St.Mologga (Cork) - Posts: 21 - 25/09/2021 17:24:39    2382887

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Replying To Galway9801:  "I'm happy for Kerry to have as much success as possible but let's not forget there's a hurling tradition in North kerry. The only big change that's taken place in the hurling landscape is they've lost Offaly,temporarily at least.
There's probably the guts of 20 County boards in the country who if they're being honest, don't take hurling seriously. Maybe football people should look at that before lecturing Donal og Cusack or Jackie Tyrell on being open minded."
Keep the blindfold on. Football counties shouldn't be expected to develop hurling when there is no tradition. At least not in the modern game you watch. Every football county fields an intercounty team in hurling whereas hurling counties put up barriers to stifle development of football.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 25/09/2021 17:27:25    2382889

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