National Forum

Upcoming Special Congress

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I am not hopeful.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2162 - 02/12/2021 16:09:53    2391453

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Replying To Ban:  "This tread has proven there is no right! Many different opinions, many different motivations..

I think if the next version of the Championship format is an improvement, then we are winning"
True, that about all we can hope for, the 1 thing I'm worried about is that there is a lot of people involved, about 10 I'd say, it's going to be hard to nail something down.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13949 - 02/12/2021 16:17:11    2391456

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Well I read there is now a new task force put in place to bring a new football format before Congress in February, best of luck to them let's hope they get it right."
I don't see the reason to rush it. The draws are made for n next year. Take time and get the format right. Bring it to a special Congress next Autumn.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5707 - 02/12/2021 16:37:00    2391462

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Replying To Ban:  "This tread has proven there is no right! Many different opinions, many different motivations..

I think if the next version of the Championship format is an improvement, then we are winning"
I think there's no perfect solution.

I hope they don't go for an outright bad one though. There are plenty of those floating out there if outside of the previous task force's proposals. Change for change sake out of desperation would be bad too. It's what I think some were calling for at the special congress.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 02/12/2021 16:44:35    2391463

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Before any championship change the anonymous votes at congress have to go, this decision needs to be taken at a higher bureaucratic level, whatever decisions are made, accountability is a must.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3931 - 02/12/2021 17:06:18    2391468

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Replying To Greengrass:  "I don't see the reason to rush it. The draws are made for n next year. Take time and get the format right. Bring it to a special Congress next Autumn."
But if they take there time would it be ready for next autumn? they need to pitch any new proposal well in advance so people have a proper understanding I'd imagine it can be a drawn out process, taking your time could mean 2-3 years with the current awful championship structure, hope the tailteann cup proves a success.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3931 - 02/12/2021 17:18:12    2391470

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Replying To wexico15:  "Before any championship change the anonymous votes at congress have to go, this decision needs to be taken at a higher bureaucratic level, whatever decisions are made, accountability is a must."
This is true but very worrying that this only came before congress in the very recent past and was voted against.

mintyfresh (Westmeath) - Posts: 112 - 02/12/2021 17:21:33    2391472

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Replying To mintyfresh:  "This is true but very worrying that this only came before congress in the very recent past and was voted against."
I know, that's why it should be taken out of their hands.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3931 - 02/12/2021 17:35:35    2391477

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Replying To wexico15:  "But if they take there time would it be ready for next autumn? they need to pitch any new proposal well in advance so people have a proper understanding I'd imagine it can be a drawn out process, taking your time could mean 2-3 years with the current awful championship structure, hope the tailteann cup proves a success."
It won't be drawn out. Take the time needed and come up with options of substance that address the various concerns raised prior to the Special Congress last October. You are correct when you say the proposals would need to be formulated and made public well in advance of a Special Congress next autumn. The options proposed last autumn were awful. There is plenty of time available to improve them substantially. Rushing the process in order to have the options ready for February is misguided nor is it to the advantage of the competitions. Next year's championship is set in stone. It makes absolutely no sense to rush the process. Take the time available and get it right this time around. The previous proposals were nowhere near what is required.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5707 - 02/12/2021 21:39:03    2391501

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Replying To wexico15:  "I know, that's why it should be taken out of their hands."
I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment.
However it can't be taken out of their hands, the only way it is voted on is at Congress. It was a proposal that previously came from club level to Congress with the aid of the CPA, so highly unlikely any club or clubs will bring it from club members again due to the margin of defeat, so it won't change !

The last time it was voted on it was hammered with 83% of Delegates voting against it, that meant that just over 30 people of the 183 Delegates felt it was important to have transparency on how they voted, one of the few sporting organisations in Europe who doesn't have transparent voting.

The disparaging remarks made by one particular Delegate from Europe who ridiculed the motion & the people who put it forward was shocking. When you consider that Liam Griffin, a person of extremely high regard for his work within the Association presented the motion, you would have to say that the unnecessary vilification of the motion & those proposing it was beyond contempt to say the least.

Tracey Kennedy then Chairperson of Cork County Board spoke very vehemently against it saying it was disturbing & that it suggested there was something fundamentally wrong at the heart of the Association, I would agree with her that it suggests that there is something fundamentally wrong at the heart of the Association, as transparency has to be at the heart of any organisation & if it's not, then there is something seriously wrong.
What have Delegates to be afraid of, what is there to hide if people are being honest.

It obviously came home to roost at the last Congress, where it seemed that the Proposers of the new C'ship format were pretty disappointed to see it defeated & there were a lot of murmurings on how certain counties voted, you reap what you sow sometimes. Apart from that, the dismissal & outright hostility shown to a progressive group like the CPA at that time by Congress & the GAA hierarchy has only led to more apathy, disillusionment & members leaving the Association. Some day somebody might have the courage of their convictions & change things but when you see what has happened in rival sporting organisations & political life in Ireland, I think we will be waiting for a while.

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1117 - 02/12/2021 21:57:14    2391503

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Replying To wexico15:  "Before any championship change the anonymous votes at congress have to go, this decision needs to be taken at a higher bureaucratic level, whatever decisions are made, accountability is a must."
One of many changes required for the next vote on such a matter..

The influence of International GAA communities is bazaar! I'd also like to think Counties will have the same amount of votes..

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1223 - 03/12/2021 08:10:06    2391505

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Here we go again - a new task force has been setup to propose a new model for the Football championship. It will come before the February congress. They might well come up with a decent and reasonable proposal to be voted through.

If it is rejected - why not put before congress a number of questions as to what the new championship should look like and then come back with proposals? That would be the best possible frame of reference to put to anybody. At the moment there's still a lot of guesswork.

- Should we merge the league and championship?
- Should the province still feed the championship knock out in some form?
- Should there be 2 tiers or even 3 tiers?
- Should the Tier 2 championship be played off early to allow the winner into the All Ireland knock out?
- How many guaranteed championship games should there be?

In my opinion there have been a lot of detrimental decisions made in the GAA over the past 10 years or so (lowering the age groups rather then reviewing player eligibility / split season rather than master fixtures / showering the Dubs in cash). These will ultimately harm the game - we can't afford another one.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 119 - 03/12/2021 11:54:22    2391531

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Definitely one change needed is scrap secret ballot if u can't vote in open there something definitely wrong ,, ur only voting the way ur county asked you to it has no reflection on the person that raised there hand time to be open about these things ,,

Kickitout (Galway) - Posts: 558 - 03/12/2021 15:07:01    2391548

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think there's no perfect solution.

I hope they don't go for an outright bad one though. There are plenty of those floating out there if outside of the previous task force's proposals. Change for change sake out of desperation would be bad too. It's what I think some were calling for at the special congress."
The Hurling Championship isn't perfect but it has bedded in well. They kept their season structure and converted the provincial championships to round robin format.
I think Jimmy McGuinness is on to a winner with 4 provincial winners, 8 Division 1 teams, 3 Division 2 teams and the Tailteann Cup winner being the 16 teams to enter the All-Ireland series.
The format of that Final 16 is debatable. The International Rules Series used to be played over 2 games. I'm in favour of a Round of 16 played home and away over 2 legs before quarter-finals, semi-finals and final as normal.
The Tailteann Cup can be played out using a similar Round of 16 format.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6335 - 03/12/2021 17:39:53    2391568

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Hurling Championship isn't perfect but it has bedded in well. They kept their season structure and converted the provincial championships to round robin format.
I think Jimmy McGuinness is on to a winner with 4 provincial winners, 8 Division 1 teams, 3 Division 2 teams and the Tailteann Cup winner being the 16 teams to enter the All-Ireland series.
The format of that Final 16 is debatable. The International Rules Series used to be played over 2 games. I'm in favour of a Round of 16 played home and away over 2 legs before quarter-finals, semi-finals and final as normal.
The Tailteann Cup can be played out using a similar Round of 16 format."
I don't think 2 leg formats will work in the GAA.

Dublin smash a Fermanagh, Roscommon or Down or Clare in the first leg who actually wants to see the return leg. It's bad enough have 1 match that's a foregone conclusion let alone 2.

If teams are to be guaranteed 2 games.

Let them play 2 separate opponents to a finish.

Teams winning both their fixtures go on to the quarterfinals. Teams winning 1 fixture have a neutral playoff round. Teams losing 2 fixtures are gone.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 03/12/2021 19:22:25    2391578

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Replying To Kickitout:  "Definitely one change needed is scrap secret ballot if u can't vote in open there something definitely wrong ,, ur only voting the way ur county asked you to it has no reflection on the person that raised there hand time to be open about these things ,,"
However is the person there to represent their county/province or there as an individual. I'd guess they aren't there to make up their own mind on issues such as competition reform. A local discussion will have taken place and a majority decision made at that level which the congress representative would be expected to respect?

There might need to be reform of congress and how votes are taken before the GAA start to look at reform. For example the will to link the league and championship is a non starter if it relegates the provinicial championships to a secondary competition. If a provincial council has an income reduction then counties within that province have a reduction and so on so there is a significant number of votes against that idea before we get to congress.

Good luck to the new body but whilst the voting system at congress remains the same then the same competition structure will continue to broadly form the basis with some room for a few tweaks here and there but then is that really change!

There can't be radical change with how things are currently set up.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 856 - 03/12/2021 19:27:20    2391581

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Whilst delegates are representing their own counties, it isn't actually right for them to be mandated a certain way in advance of congress. There's a debate on the floor around motions and it's right that the delegate hears that debate and acts accordingly taking in all the information. I still think the ballot should be open and delegates having to explain their decisions after the fact to ensure that they are acting as a real representative rather than their own personal interest.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 04/12/2021 09:17:23    2391597

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't think 2 leg formats will work in the GAA.

Dublin smash a Fermanagh, Roscommon or Down or Clare in the first leg who actually wants to see the return leg. It's bad enough have 1 match that's a foregone conclusion let alone 2.

If teams are to be guaranteed 2 games.

Let them play 2 separate opponents to a finish.

Teams winning both their fixtures go on to the quarterfinals. Teams winning 1 fixture have a neutral playoff round. Teams losing 2 fixtures are gone."
A team scared to play another team over 2 legs should not be in the All-Ireland series!!
Many people throw out the example of the electric atmosphere when Longford hosted Dublin years ago.
I would rank the provincial champions in pot 1. Pots 2, 3 and 4 then on league placing.
Pot 1 team away to Pot 4 team in 1st leg. Pot 2 team away to Pot 4 team in the 1st leg.
If Clare are hosting Dublin, Cusack Park will be sold out. It will be akin to McDonagh finalists hosting the preliminary quarter-finals.
Shocks can happen over 2 legs. A team could have a 5 point lead ahead of the 2nd leg but get ahead of themselves. I think it can be the best fit and it's a format that is not alien to people. We half had 2 legs when games have gone to replays. Sometimes there can be a bit of needle between the teams after the first leg and that creates a storm of excitement ahead of the 2nd leg.
If some 2nd legs appear to be a non contest, all that is needed is 4 of the 8 2nd legs to be still in the melting pot for being broadcast on TV.

The league format could potentially return to 1A/1B/2A/2B. The top team in 1A and 1B can qualify for Division 1 Final. The top 5 in 1A and 1B can be the 10 to qualify for the All-Ireland series.
The top team in 2A and 2B can qualify for the Division 2 final. The Division 2 winner can be the 11th qualifier for the All-Ireland series.
The remaining 5 All-Ireland series spots can be reserved for the 4 Provincial winners and the Tailteann Cup winner.
Division 1 Promotion/Relegation Playoffs:
6th 1A at home versus 3rd 2A
6th 1B at home versus 3rd 2B
2nd 2A at home versus 7th 1A
2nd 2B at home versus 7th 1B

If the Provincial winners or the Tailteann Cup winner have also qualified via the league, the 1 to 5 free spots can be allotted in the following order:
1. Division 2 runners-up.
2 to 5. The winners of the promotion/relegation playoffs ranked by league placing, i.e. 6th > 7th > 2nd > 3rd. Where 2 teams are ranked 6th for example, it will have to go based on best record in their respective Division e.g. 6th place with 5 points > 6th place with 4 points OR 6th place with 5 points (-11 points difference) > 6th place with 5 points (-12 points difference).

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6335 - 04/12/2021 09:46:00    2391602

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Whilst delegates are representing their own counties, it isn't actually right for them to be mandated a certain way in advance of congress. There's a debate on the floor around motions and it's right that the delegate hears that debate and acts accordingly taking in all the information. I still think the ballot should be open and delegates having to explain their decisions after the fact to ensure that they are acting as a real representative rather than their own personal interest."
I agree and in a perfect world it would work like that and I think it does for some of the delegates. However these major motions are debated for weeks/months through the media and at a local level; the congress delegate isn't always automatically assigned that position, some are elected into one of their counties/provinces quota of seats.

Therefore whilst they'll have room to decide on smaller motions my guess is major motions will be mandated and they'll follow what the majority in their area wants.

A secret ballot actually opens up a better opportunity for the delegate to vote their own way if they feel strongly enough despite what they've been mandated to do, an open ballot would completly remove this and every delegate would most likely vote along their counties wishes; if they didn't it might be hard for them come the process of reselecting the congress person; the congress system does need change before anything radical can be considered around competition reform.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 856 - 04/12/2021 11:03:03    2391619

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Replying To legendzxix:  "A team scared to play another team over 2 legs should not be in the All-Ireland series!!
Many people throw out the example of the electric atmosphere when Longford hosted Dublin years ago.
I would rank the provincial champions in pot 1. Pots 2, 3 and 4 then on league placing.
Pot 1 team away to Pot 4 team in 1st leg. Pot 2 team away to Pot 4 team in the 1st leg.
If Clare are hosting Dublin, Cusack Park will be sold out. It will be akin to McDonagh finalists hosting the preliminary quarter-finals.
Shocks can happen over 2 legs. A team could have a 5 point lead ahead of the 2nd leg but get ahead of themselves. I think it can be the best fit and it's a format that is not alien to people. We half had 2 legs when games have gone to replays. Sometimes there can be a bit of needle between the teams after the first leg and that creates a storm of excitement ahead of the 2nd leg.
If some 2nd legs appear to be a non contest, all that is needed is 4 of the 8 2nd legs to be still in the melting pot for being broadcast on TV.

The league format could potentially return to 1A/1B/2A/2B. The top team in 1A and 1B can qualify for Division 1 Final. The top 5 in 1A and 1B can be the 10 to qualify for the All-Ireland series.
The top team in 2A and 2B can qualify for the Division 2 final. The Division 2 winner can be the 11th qualifier for the All-Ireland series.
The remaining 5 All-Ireland series spots can be reserved for the 4 Provincial winners and the Tailteann Cup winner.
Division 1 Promotion/Relegation Playoffs:
6th 1A at home versus 3rd 2A
6th 1B at home versus 3rd 2B
2nd 2A at home versus 7th 1A
2nd 2B at home versus 7th 1B

If the Provincial winners or the Tailteann Cup winner have also qualified via the league, the 1 to 5 free spots can be allotted in the following order:
1. Division 2 runners-up.
2 to 5. The winners of the promotion/relegation playoffs ranked by league placing, i.e. 6th > 7th > 2nd > 3rd. Where 2 teams are ranked 6th for example, it will have to go based on best record in their respective Division e.g. 6th place with 5 points > 6th place with 4 points OR 6th place with 5 points (-11 points difference) > 6th place with 5 points (-12 points difference)."
The league format looks good.

I just don't like the 2 legs for Championship, otherwise looks like it'd work well. The 2 legs isn't about teams being scared to play, it's more about no one caring about the game.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 04/12/2021 11:54:18    2391625

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