National Forum

Upcoming Special Congress

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


We may as well park this till we see what if any, new proposals emerge over the next month(s).

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 366 - 01/11/2021 12:38:24    2388058

Link

Replying To Eddie the Exile:  "There are 4 key difficulties to the whole thing in my view
1. How to link provincials to AI (this will definitely need to happen to get progress)
2. How to balance the ease/difficulty of very different provinces when it comes to AI placings

3. How to give enough meaningful games to mid-range and lower range teams through the summer
4. How to avoid dead rubber matches

5. How to end the season with an engaging knock out phase; and critically
6 How to make sure adequate time is available for the club game.

Some of these seem to work directly against each other which adds to the complexity. But they will all need to be addressed to have a senior competition we can all buy into. Not simple.

My contention therefore is that a 3 tier system is needed. The league must be blended with championship.
A 12 team top tier
A 10 team middle tier
An 8 team lower tier

Please bear with me....

The top tier would run as 2 pools. The top 3 teams from each would progress to knockout with the top ranked team having home advantage as a reward. That's 6 QF places sorted. There is no Div 1 league title- teams are not bothered about it anyway. The reward for high league performance is a place in the AI knockout rounds.

The remaining 2 AI places would be awarded to the winners of 2 playoffs of provincial winners. This step gives the lower tier teams a route to the All Ireland knockout but also limits the so-called 'easy route' from some provinces. So if Armagh, Galway, Dublin and Cork win through their provinces it could be Armagh v Dublin and Cork v Galway for 2 QF places.

What if a team finishes in the top 3 and comes through the provincial side? They go straight into a semi. This will reward an Ulster champion team for example who also finish high up in the groups.

At the lower end, the lowest 2 teams will play off to decide relegation.

In the middle tier, 2 groups of 5 will occur. The top 2 in each will pair off for semis AB BA with highest team having home advantage. An 'Intermediate Final' will decide promotion. Lowest 2 teams play off for relegation. To add an extra game at this level, an open draw with teams playing opponents from the other side of the draw groups will be played in Rd 1. This will add a good element to kick off the competition. Keeping only 1 promotion place will make the final a meaningful one.

For the lowest tier 8 teams will play as a standard league format. Top team into final with 2nd and 3rd playing a semi. This reduces the dead rubber matches later in the season.

T[he provincial championships continue as a straight knockout, with seeded for preliminary Leinster rounds based on league position. A team like TIpp or Cavan can make an All Ireland QF by winning as they did last year. However, there are no places reserved for 2nd and 3rd tier teams through the league system."
Or have a proper league based Championship system? We already have in the GAA a fair system in the club system, why not apply it to the county scene?

Senior
12 teams, teams play each other once, 11 rounds. Top 2 into Senior AISF's. 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th into AIQF's. Bottom team automatically relegated to Intermediate. 2nd and 3rd from bottom into relegation playoff, loser relegated to Intermediate.

Intermediate
12 teams, teams play each other once, 11 rounds. Top 2 into Intermediate AISF's. 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th into AIQF's. Two Intermediate AI finalists promoted to senior. Bottom team automatically relegated to Junior. 2nd and 3rd from bottom into relegation playoff, loser relegated to Junior.

Junior
8 teams, teams play each other twice (home and away), 14 rounds. 1st v 4th and 2nd v3rd in Junior AISF's.

National Cup
Cup competition based on the traditional provincial setup, straight knockout, finish on the day. Cup finishes during the league phase before the knockout phase of the championship begins.

National Shield
Cup based competition for counties knocked out before the Provincial SF's (16 teams). Straight knockout, finish on the day. Shield finishes during the league phase before the knockout phase of the championship begins.

Minimum 13 games (11 league, 2 Cup/Shield games) a season guaranteed, minimum of 16 for the lowest tier - Provincial system in its best format (straight knockout) - Teams play teams their own level - Mix of regular Cup/Shield weekends and league phase weekend before the Championship knockouts for fans -

Have the positions for the championship be decided by the previous years NFL, so teams earn their places on the field of play rather than the lob-sided provinces.

It would mean taking the provinces out of the championship, but I think most of us would agree with that at this stage.

dblackandamber (Kilkenny) - Posts: 92 - 01/11/2021 13:56:11    2388070

Link

Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "We may as well park this till we see what if any, new proposals emerge over the next month(s)."
Ya the head is riddled now from all the different proposals, best leave it be and see what they come back with.

They might as well go with Sean Kelly's proposal, that should crack the 60% handily.

Remember the old saying, big bodies move slowly.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 01/11/2021 14:48:45    2388076

Link

The easiest solution might be best. From next year, Division 3 and 4 teams have to make a provincial final to be included in the qualifiers.
Enter the 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers into 4 groups of 4. The hurling adopted the provincial championships in round robin format. Football can adopt the Final 16 in round robin format.
Just get on with the game!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6831 - 01/11/2021 20:53:22    2388123

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "The easiest solution might be best. From next year, Division 3 and 4 teams have to make a provincial final to be included in the qualifiers.
Enter the 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers into 4 groups of 4. The hurling adopted the provincial championships in round robin format. Football can adopt the Final 16 in round robin format.
Just get on with the game!"
It's too easy in Munster and Connacht to reach a Provincial final.

It's a flat out bad idea.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 02/11/2021 11:15:36    2388137

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "It's too easy in Munster and Connacht to reach a Provincial final.

It's a flat out bad idea."
Ulster want to retain the provincial championships!
Change is likely to come about one evolutionary step at a time e.g. the round robin format previously applied to football quarter-finals and the round robin currently applied to the provincial hurling championships.
The allocation of preliminary quarter-final places to Joe McDonagh is a hurling flaw but it ensured the motion passed.
The guarantee of qualifier spots for provincial finalists endured the Tailteann Cup motion passed.
Converting the Final 16 to a round robin would be an evolutionary step. Flawed yes but more fairer and likely to gain more than 60% agreement.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6831 - 02/11/2021 11:34:53    2388140

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Ulster want to retain the provincial championships!
Change is likely to come about one evolutionary step at a time e.g. the round robin format previously applied to football quarter-finals and the round robin currently applied to the provincial hurling championships.
The allocation of preliminary quarter-final places to Joe McDonagh is a hurling flaw but it ensured the motion passed.
The guarantee of qualifier spots for provincial finalists endured the Tailteann Cup motion passed.
Converting the Final 16 to a round robin would be an evolutionary step. Flawed yes but more fairer and likely to gain more than 60% agreement."
It's not more fair.

People want to reduce the provincial inequality problem.

This increases it as your plans tend to! Funny how it'd probably benefit Kerry this plan!

If I were specifically attempting to come up with a plan to benefit Kerry I'd probably push this forward to be honest.

You're not the only poster tending to push structures that'd specifically benefit their county.

The Jim McGuinness plan would be pretty beneficial to the likes of Tyrone and Donegal fans right now but your solution feels particularly blatant.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 02/11/2021 15:23:33    2388181

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "It's too easy in Munster and Connacht to reach a Provincial final.

It's a flat out bad idea."
Whammo I had a suggestion to keep Ulster as is with its 9 teams and create another province with dublin Meath Kildare Cork Clare Kerry and Galway Mayo Roscommon and religation only in the southern province and it still sounds pretty good to me, that's 2 well matched provinces and it keeps the sacred cow which is Ulster intact.

The top 4 from each group advance to a quarter final, now you'll have good games and bad games in both provinces but there isn't much anyone can do about that unless the gaa start spreading the money more equally.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 02/11/2021 16:02:41    2388186

Link

Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Whammo I had a suggestion to keep Ulster as is with its 9 teams and create another province with dublin Meath Kildare Cork Clare Kerry and Galway Mayo Roscommon and religation only in the southern province and it still sounds pretty good to me, that's 2 well matched provinces and it keeps the sacred cow which is Ulster intact.

The top 4 from each group advance to a quarter final, now you'll have good games and bad games in both provinces but there isn't much anyone can do about that unless the gaa start spreading the money more equally."
I'd worry that it's unfair on other provinces. You've 9 from 22 playing for the All Ireland in the merged province.

I know Ulster is the most competitive of the 4 provinces but it'd be a good bit weaker than the 9 best of the other 3 provinces merged.

Dublin
Mayo
Kerry
Galway
Meath
Kildare
Roscommon
2 from Laois/Clare/Cork/Tipperary/Westmeath/Longford is maybe only a little bit better than an Ulster group right now but still you've also got to future proof a structure and you'd like to think that the merged group would be a good bit better than Ulster going forward. If not you'd be worried about what the above system has done to the quality in Leinster and also Munster and Connacht.

I think the current All Ireland structure has most failed Leinster football and this system feels like it'd perpetuate that.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 02/11/2021 16:32:36    2388194

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "It's not more fair.

People want to reduce the provincial inequality problem.

This increases it as your plans tend to! Funny how it'd probably benefit Kerry this plan!

If I were specifically attempting to come up with a plan to benefit Kerry I'd probably push this forward to be honest.

You're not the only poster tending to push structures that'd specifically benefit their county.

The Jim McGuinness plan would be pretty beneficial to the likes of Tyrone and Donegal fans right now but your solution feels particularly blatant."
Motions have been on the table to bring equity to provinces. These motions have been rejected, and mainly by Ulster. There seems to be a lack of appetite at congress for these motions
I'd favour a system where 2 Munster teams, 2 Connaught teams, 3 Ulster teams and 4 Leinster teams advance to the Final 16. That's the top third of teams from each province. The 5 remaining places can be on offer for those entering the qualifiers.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6831 - 02/11/2021 17:45:02    2388207

Link

I'd have two 'mix-n-match' groups of 10.

Group A with Uls 5, Conn 3 and Lein 2.
Group B with Ulster 4, Muns 3 and Lein 3.

Top 5 of 10 in each group to AI Series.
Highest team from Uls and Lein in each group to Prov Finals - 2 Champs to AI Series.
Highest 2 teams from Conn and Muns to Prov Finals - 2 Champs to AI Series.

Best group records get byes (likely 6 teams) to QFs, others play a Prelim Rd.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 02/11/2021 18:19:15    2388212

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "It's too easy in Munster and Connacht to reach a Provincial final.

It's a flat out bad idea."
So perhaps better to go with the Jim McGuinness Plan (4+11+1) rather than Sean Kelly's (8+6+2).

Also, getting that JimMc 11 would be better out of Divs 1A/1B rather than Divs 1/2 (latter near guarantees all Div 1 teams progress).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 02/11/2021 20:03:19    2388221

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Ulster want to retain the provincial championships!
Change is likely to come about one evolutionary step at a time e.g. the round robin format previously applied to football quarter-finals and the round robin currently applied to the provincial hurling championships.
The allocation of preliminary quarter-final places to Joe McDonagh is a hurling flaw but it ensured the motion passed.
The guarantee of qualifier spots for provincial finalists endured the Tailteann Cup motion passed.
Converting the Final 16 to a round robin would be an evolutionary step. Flawed yes but more fairer and likely to gain more than 60% agreement."
The hurling groups with 3 of 5 seems to works better than 2 of 4 - so I'd go for 3 fives in lieu of 4 fours, leading to KO QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 02/11/2021 20:06:22    2388222

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Motions have been on the table to bring equity to provinces. These motions have been rejected, and mainly by Ulster. There seems to be a lack of appetite at congress for these motions
I'd favour a system where 2 Munster teams, 2 Connaught teams, 3 Ulster teams and 4 Leinster teams advance to the Final 16. That's the top third of teams from each province. The 5 remaining places can be on offer for those entering the qualifiers."
You say 4 Leinster teams, 3 of them get free ride to last 16. In my eyes Roscommon would be 3rd ranked in Connaught but they miss out, yet they would beat all but Dublin in Leinster, same with the likes of Armagh, Derry, Monaghan. We have the solution in qualifiers so it's up to county to put the effort in or not. Don't like this easy ride thing.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1269 - 03/11/2021 09:58:08    2388232

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Motions have been on the table to bring equity to provinces. These motions have been rejected, and mainly by Ulster. There seems to be a lack of appetite at congress for these motions
I'd favour a system where 2 Munster teams, 2 Connaught teams, 3 Ulster teams and 4 Leinster teams advance to the Final 16. That's the top third of teams from each province. The 5 remaining places can be on offer for those entering the qualifiers."
It was very close and whilst the provincial councils did make up a lot of the dissent, there were other big reasons why it didn't get through. Still it was close and you'd have to be very tone deaf to the conversation to no appreciate that the consensus is to reduce the importance of the provincials.

I think Provincial champions should get a shot at the All Ireland, outside of that I don't really think we need them to have much influence on things.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 03/11/2021 10:11:54    2388234

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I'd worry that it's unfair on other provinces. You've 9 from 22 playing for the All Ireland in the merged province.

I know Ulster is the most competitive of the 4 provinces but it'd be a good bit weaker than the 9 best of the other 3 provinces merged.

Dublin
Mayo
Kerry
Galway
Meath
Kildare
Roscommon
2 from Laois/Clare/Cork/Tipperary/Westmeath/Longford is maybe only a little bit better than an Ulster group right now but still you've also got to future proof a structure and you'd like to think that the merged group would be a good bit better than Ulster going forward. If not you'd be worried about what the above system has done to the quality in Leinster and also Munster and Connacht.

I think the current All Ireland structure has most failed Leinster football and this system feels like it'd perpetuate that."
Ah not a bother whammo, I thought it would be easier to just dismantle the other 3 provinces and mash em into 1.

Speaking of future proofing, how do you see your own county developing in the coming years? I know the gaa are starting to pump a bit of much needed money into the county now.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 03/11/2021 10:16:38    2388236

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "It was very close and whilst the provincial councils did make up a lot of the dissent, there were other big reasons why it didn't get through. Still it was close and you'd have to be very tone deaf to the conversation to no appreciate that the consensus is to reduce the importance of the provincials.

I think Provincial champions should get a shot at the All Ireland, outside of that I don't really think we need them to have much influence on things."
With the current system, is the next evolutionary step that Division 3 and 4 counties must win their province to get a shot at the All-Ireland?
I'm in favour of it. Just with the reality that the Tailteann Cup was voted in based on provincial finalists being included in the qualifiers, the Tailteann Cup might need a few years to establish itself as currently voted on.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6831 - 03/11/2021 11:11:37    2388246

Link

Replying To Saynothing:  "You say 4 Leinster teams, 3 of them get free ride to last 16. In my eyes Roscommon would be 3rd ranked in Connaught but they miss out, yet they would beat all but Dublin in Leinster, same with the likes of Armagh, Derry, Monaghan. We have the solution in qualifiers so it's up to county to put the effort in or not. Don't like this easy ride thing."
If Ulster counties are happy enough for the qualifiers to sort out the cream rising to the latter stages, I'm ok with that.
I've said for years that the qualifier draws should be seeded based on the league.
Listening to my northern brethren, the solution seems to be a Final 16 in 4 groups of 4. Provincial winners guaranteed. The remaining 12 made up based on league placing and/or qualifiers.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6831 - 03/11/2021 11:22:30    2388248

Link

Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Ah not a bother whammo, I thought it would be easier to just dismantle the other 3 provinces and mash em into 1.

Speaking of future proofing, how do you see your own county developing in the coming years? I know the gaa are starting to pump a bit of much needed money into the county now."
I think the money will help but it will be a long time before it actually pays off. It's going to be a less straightforward process than it was for Dublin.

Whilst Dublin were underperforming in the 90s and 2000s they were still regularly winning Leinster titles and at the top end of the NFL.

There was a high profile team to be attractive for kids to want to aspire to play for. We don't have that at the minute in Antrim. To get the most out of the investment you'd hope that there can also be shorter term gains.

We have to keep more playing football rather than soccer, particularly in Belfast.

The money could help the amount of football being played in the schools. For me that's a key part of where we're behind other counties at both primary and secondary levels.

More generally and in counties outside of Antrim I think the development squad system has been a really bad use of resources for smaller counties. Too much time gets dedicated to too small of a playing group and talent identification isn't strong enough to know that these are actually the players worth investing in.

Dublin's coaching is very decentralised and it creates a wider pool of talent and raises everyone's standards.

My perception of Kerry too is that they get youngsters and throughout playing games, games and more games. We have ok juvenile leagues but I still think more could be done.

In terms of assessing where the teams at right now it's really hard given how disrupted the last 2 seasons have been.

Getting out of division 4 was a good start, though and the Ulster championship performances of the last 2 season's weren't disgraces. Still there's a big difference between keeping a score looking respectable and actually getting into positions to win big games.

Division 4 is also a pretty bad standard. You've teams like London and Waterford in there that haven't had a winning campaign in about 10 years.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 03/11/2021 11:39:40    2388253

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "If Ulster counties are happy enough for the qualifiers to sort out the cream rising to the latter stages, I'm ok with that.
I've said for years that the qualifier draws should be seeded based on the league.
Listening to my northern brethren, the solution seems to be a Final 16 in 4 groups of 4. Provincial winners guaranteed. The remaining 12 made up based on league placing and/or qualifiers."
To me that feels like it'd work well.

I think you'd also have to schedule the Provincials and League in parallel. That's crucial to the success of the new season in my eyes.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 03/11/2021 11:43:36    2388256

Link