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Wasn't passed this time but a big change is coming in the next couple of years. They will probably have to try keep the provincial competitions included in the all Ireland to keep everyone happy. I don't know how they will do that. I liked the look of plan b in lots of ways and changes could have been made to but apart from the Ulster championship football is dead until the all Ireland quarter finals.
dave1988 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1043 - 24/10/2021 09:51:37
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Replying To mayotyroneman: "Well thank God that proposal was shelved..it's basically a good idea but the provincial championships need to mean something. Simple solution..play the provincials..the 4 winners get into the quarter finals or a 12 team championship...then fill up the rest of the spaces with teams ranked according to their league performance..and then have your tier 2 competition..simple solution..Jim McGuiness suggested something similar years ago" Doesnt that say enough about the whole situation regarding the provincial championships? It appears they need to be linked to the All Ireland to be deemed of any worth. They should be able to support themselves as a stand alone competition if they are that valuable.
tipp11 (Tipperary) - Posts: 353 - 24/10/2021 09:51:59
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Replying To wexico15: "Found this argument interesting, in hurling 4th place in Munster and Leinster don't progress from a 5 team round robin, in 2019 Clare, Waterford and Galway were knocked out in roubd robin while Joe McDonagh finalists Laois ( who beat Dublin) and Westmeath competed in the last 8 knockout stage.
Are some of you the counties who could potentially finish 6th in Div 1 lacking backbone by using this argument." The system in hurling is bad as well. Joe McDonagh finalists shouldn't get in ahead of teams which have been competing in Liam.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 24/10/2021 10:22:30
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As much as I wanted to see change, why was proposal B structured in such a poor way that it penalised the lower half of division 1 teams? Without much thought an easier change was possible. Why not propose that the championship be split into 2 tiers, in which your placing at the end of the league determines which championship you play in. This would remove the pointless provincial system and have teams playing at their level. The 2nd tier could even be structured like the Joe McDonagh cup in Hurling in which the winners have a route back into the championship.
PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1653 - 24/10/2021 10:26:56
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Why do I think there should be 3 tiers ?
1 All of Div 1 would get a crack at Sam
2 They talk about the gulf between Divs 1 and 4, it
is also huge between 1 and 2.
If you want to play with the big boys, get promoted....
sponger (Wicklow) - Posts: 2897 - 24/10/2021 10:27:36
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Replying To dave1988: "Wasn't passed this time but a big change is coming in the next couple of years. They will probably have to try keep the provincial competitions included in the all Ireland to keep everyone happy. I don't know how they will do that. I liked the look of plan b in lots of ways and changes could have been made to but apart from the Ulster championship football is dead until the all Ireland quarter finals." It didn't look too dead in Connacht when Roscommon won it twice in recent times.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 24/10/2021 10:32:52
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Replying To mayotyroneman: "And why should we break from the provincial system?..just because Leinster counties can't get their act together..thank goodness the Ulster championship is still intact..simple solution .4 provincial winners get into last 16..then let league placings determine next 12 places..straight knockout from there" Provincial system is broken and the link will be severed eventually. The vast majority of counties voting against retaining the provincial link. It's not an attack on Ulster. Even one of your own was supporting it and I'm sure he wouldn't if the other Tyrone players were players were opposed.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 24/10/2021 10:33:52
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Replying To tipp11: "Doesnt that say enough about the whole situation regarding the provincial championships? It appears they need to be linked to the All Ireland to be deemed of any worth. They should be able to support themselves as a stand alone competition if they are that valuable." You nailed it
Rebel2020 (Cork) - Posts: 75 - 24/10/2021 10:46:28
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Replying To tipp11: "Doesnt that say enough about the whole situation regarding the provincial championships? It appears they need to be linked to the All Ireland to be deemed of any worth. They should be able to support themselves as a stand alone competition if they are that valuable." Exactly Tipp.
Seems they are worthless unless they're a qualifying route to the All Ireland series.
I expect a new system will be cobbled together over the next few years along the lines of the Jim McGuinnes proposal.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1402 - 24/10/2021 10:53:38
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Very sad option B wasn't carried. The game is broken, it's dispiriting, waining in draw for players and spectators, unfair and uneven.
It's far to easy for Dublin and Kerry to win All Ireland's, coming out of non competitive provinces the roll of honour indicative of that they are two perennially successful counties and the don't need the advantage or the leg up. It's far to easy for both to win All Ireland comparatively, it's not fair.
In Connacht, Galway, Mayo and Roscommon know they are a luck of a draw away in the provincial from being in the All Ireland series.
Was really disappointed to see the majority of these counties at worst feather there own nest and keep these advantageous pathways or at best had reservations on option b, I have my concerns though that decisions were made in self interest rather than progressing the game. Very disappointing.
Fermanagh made the best point of the day for me - they had a great one in Ulster I think it may have been 15/16 and played us in a quarter - their delegate spoke that's the ceiling for Fermanagh which is why they voted against it for their fans - that I can understand. I don't understand the rest if the Ulster teams voting to keep the Ulster championship, I get it's competitive, Leinster used to be the same, but I also remember Leinster being a huge depleting factor on us competing against other provinces that had easier pathways. Since Leinster has become a farce just look at what we've done in the game.
No option was perfect, but each could have been evolved.
Really hope the S8s come back now, we need more games with more diversity of teams playing each other.
The whole thing remains unbalanced and unfair. Bad day yesterday for the game.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 24/10/2021 11:01:00
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I think anyone saying that yesterday proves that the provincials have to be a part of the All Ireland are being lazy in their analysis.
Over 50% of delegates voted for a deeply flawed proposal that completely separated the Provincials from the All Ireland.
I think there should be a slight link between the provincials and the All Ireland but I don't think that was the only dealbreaker in the vote.
A better proposal put to the table could easily have gotten 16 extra votes.
The current NFL of 4 divisions is just too exclusive to form the basis for the All Ireland.
I don't think the knockout All Ireland of Jim McGuinness is what the player's seem to want either.
There will be change soon and I do think it's important for buy in to the competition for it to be gotten as right as possible first time and be the format for the next 20/30+ years.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4208 - 24/10/2021 11:05:08
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Replying To tipp11: "Doesnt that say enough about the whole situation regarding the provincial championships? It appears they need to be linked to the All Ireland to be deemed of any worth. They should be able to support themselves as a stand alone competition if they are that valuable." Would your own county players from 2020 think the same?
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2006 - 24/10/2021 11:22:22
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "Make league 1a N&S, 1b N/S, 2a N/S, 2b N/S in Feb- mid March - 8 groups of 4
Knock out provincial cups ( limited to top 4 teams via league performance) played to produce 4 for senior all ireland - mid March to mid April (Easter weekend finals)
Play div 2 semis and finals in April
Top 1in div 1a N/S and 1b N/s also qualify for senior all ireland - 4 teams
Play offs run between winners of div 2 group winners (4 teams) and the 12 provincial teams who don't win prov championship - 8 teams - May bank holiday weekend
Left with 16 senior teams and 16 for tailteann cup
4 groups of 4 in each competition all played at Neutral venues - everyone plays each other once
That's 3 games in month of May with last round on June bank holiday
Top team in each group goes to all ireland semis in both competitions
everyone gets 6 games minimum between Feb and June bank holiday
Counties doing well get 8 - 12 matches over 20 weeks
Counties not doing well are idle from mid March to start of May" What?
Mailman98 (Galway) - Posts: 319 - 24/10/2021 11:41:31
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Replying To Saynothing: "Would your own county players from 2020 think the same?" Again, this is my exact point. The fact that our munster win was linked to an All Ireland semi was a bonus but realistically winning munster for us was stand alone and was special purely because we won our provincial championship, nothing to do with the All Ireland. I am not for getting rid of the provincial championships but I am for removing the All Ireland link.
tipp11 (Tipperary) - Posts: 353 - 24/10/2021 11:51:46
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Replying To TheUsername: "Very sad option B wasn't carried. The game is broken, it's dispiriting, waining in draw for players and spectators, unfair and uneven.
It's far to easy for Dublin and Kerry to win All Ireland's, coming out of non competitive provinces the roll of honour indicative of that they are two perennially successful counties and the don't need the advantage or the leg up. It's far to easy for both to win All Ireland comparatively, it's not fair.
In Connacht, Galway, Mayo and Roscommon know they are a luck of a draw away in the provincial from being in the All Ireland series.
Was really disappointed to see the majority of these counties at worst feather there own nest and keep these advantageous pathways or at best had reservations on option b, I have my concerns though that decisions were made in self interest rather than progressing the game. Very disappointing.
Fermanagh made the best point of the day for me - they had a great one in Ulster I think it may have been 15/16 and played us in a quarter - their delegate spoke that's the ceiling for Fermanagh which is why they voted against it for their fans - that I can understand. I don't understand the rest if the Ulster teams voting to keep the Ulster championship, I get it's competitive, Leinster used to be the same, but I also remember Leinster being a huge depleting factor on us competing against other provinces that had easier pathways. Since Leinster has become a farce just look at what we've done in the game.
No option was perfect, but each could have been evolved.
Really hope the S8s come back now, we need more games with more diversity of teams playing each other.
The whole thing remains unbalanced and unfair. Bad day yesterday for the game." All the money the gaa gives dublin is also unbalanced and unfair but you don't bother to mention that.
Maybe if that money went to the Leitrims and Longfords it could improve their chances.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 24/10/2021 11:55:13
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Replying To Greengrass: "It didn't look too dead in Connacht when Roscommon won it twice in recent times." It didn't look great this year when Mayo beat Sligo and Leitrim by 44 points combined and Mayo couldn't sell out a home semi final against Leitrim with a capped capacity of 4 or 5k.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 24/10/2021 12:05:49
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Replying To tipp11: "Doesnt that say enough about the whole situation regarding the provincial championships? It appears they need to be linked to the All Ireland to be deemed of any worth. They should be able to support themselves as a stand alone competition if they are that valuable." The provincial championships have always been linked to the All Ireland. Are you saying that the provincial championships have always been worthless?
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 24/10/2021 12:09:46
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Replying To Whammo86: "I think anyone saying that yesterday proves that the provincials have to be a part of the All Ireland are being lazy in their analysis.
Over 50% of delegates voted for a deeply flawed proposal that completely separated the Provincials from the All Ireland.
I think there should be a slight link between the provincials and the All Ireland but I don't think that was the only dealbreaker in the vote.
A better proposal put to the table could easily have gotten 16 extra votes.
The current NFL of 4 divisions is just too exclusive to form the basis for the All Ireland.
I don't think the knockout All Ireland of Jim McGuinness is what the player's seem to want either.
There will be change soon and I do think it's important for buy in to the competition for it to be gotten as right as possible first time and be the format for the next 20/30+ years." The All-Ireland has to be knockout at some stage. Not a fan of an additional group stage after the League stage. The demand will be for knockout football at that point.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 24/10/2021 12:31:43
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Replying To Rolo2010: "The system in hurling is bad as well. Joe McDonagh finalists shouldn't get in ahead of teams which have been competing in Liam." You are 100% correct that the system is incorrect. However, nobody proposing change to hurling in recent years started with a blank canvas. To evolve to something better, they had to make accommodations to ensure buy in. This is one!
Nobody in the hurling world gives out about it. Maybe because its so good that no one has noticed!
Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 24/10/2021 12:31:52
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "All the money the gaa gives dublin is also unbalanced and unfair but you don't bother to mention that.
Maybe if that money went to the Leitrims and Longfords it could improve their chances." Leave Dublin out of this. Leitrim and Longford were among the weakest counties even before Dublin were given funding by CC.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 24/10/2021 12:33:51
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