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Replying To Rolo2010: "Hope Proposal B fails and it's only got traction thanks to the GPA. It's deeply flawed. The big negative for me is the seedings. Division 3 and 4 teams shouldn't get preference over the bottom 3 in Division 1." 100% right. Sometime there mightn't be a kick of a ball between all 8 teams in Div 1 so what will happen then? Bottom 2 not qualify yet teams qualify out of Div 3 and 4. Mockery made of teams for the sake of a lower few. Good news coming out of Mayo, hope many follow.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2006 - 22/10/2021 19:13:42
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Replying To JackMurphy: "Wouldn't that be very difficult to manipulate? Hard to imagine a Division 2 team with so much ability and confidence.
In fact I don't think any of the top teams (now) in Division 1 would be cocky enough to manage their results.
No sir, we don't buy that one, even if the Ulster Championship is sacrosanct in some people's eyes." The loophole is still there, Mayo last year with a full league program could have done what they liked, so could any team that goes down from Div 1. No changes coming anyways. And yes the Ulster championship is sacrosanct to Ulster teams, the only flaw would be with no backdoor.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2006 - 22/10/2021 19:52:35
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Does anyone else thing it's odd to hear the Derry Cathaoirleach rubbishing Option B seeing as he was a member of the Task force that proposed it?
Connacht Secretary Prenty similarly.
Others asking for a vote to be postponed so amendments can be made are I feel trying to kill any change. Who will these amendments be made to, who will agree to them and how long will that take?
Probably a ruse by the 4 Provincial Councils??" Me be he didn't agree with the original propositions. Unanimity is rare in committees.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 22/10/2021 20:13:27
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Replying To sam1884: "True but as things stand it's unlikely Meath could play in Division 1 and play championship football, yes they'd play in the league and have every chance of being promoted to Division 1 but looking at their record when they were up it's diffcult to see them getting into the top 5 to allow them into the championship.
Meath like four or five other teams around them would be better off playing in a competitive Division 2 with a realistic opportunity of competing in the championship. Play Div 1 and in all likehood they can forget the championship, I don't think this has been discussed enough but counties around Meath's level who want to play Division 1 stand to lose more than they'd gain from Proposal B and over time I think players around that level would get fed up.
It'll suit the very best teams, even the quarter final draw would suit them and teams in Division 3 and 4 who'd have a realistic chance of championship football but those with aspirations to get one of the last few Division 1 places and play at that level have a huge gap to fill to push on into the top 5.
It's why I think struggling in Division 1 will ultimately be of no benefit to counties, they'd be safer dropping down a league." I think Proposal B is a bad idea but if a team are not good enough to finish in the top 5 in Division 1 what difference does it make if they qualify or not, its only 1 extra championship game they will be getting anyway surely? The team who finish top of division 4 make the knockout phase but will get beat in their first knockout game, probably badly, what benefit is that to them?
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 22/10/2021 20:53:12
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Does anyone else thing it's odd to hear the Derry Cathaoirleach rubbishing Option B seeing as he was a member of the Task force that proposed it?
Connacht Secretary Prenty similarly.
Others asking for a vote to be postponed so amendments can be made are I feel trying to kill any change. Who will these amendments be made to, who will agree to them and how long will that take?
Probably a ruse by the 4 Provincial Councils??" Task force and genuine scrutiny in the run up to congress are two different situations. In principle proposal B is a good start but when you examine the fine details and open it up to wider scrutiny by media and wider GAA members then there is a few issues that are clearly too much for some to compromise on.
I think it takes a brave person to say fair enough a template was created but there are a few issues we need to look at again. Maybe the principle of playing Provincial championships earlier in the year was a good one until the real outcome became clear in doing so or allowing 5 places, over 50% of Division 1 to qualify appeared a good move but again in hindsight it became clear there is a lot of unfairness with that.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 22/10/2021 21:09:13
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It's funny the 13 teams that have declared their support for Proposal B are teams not good enough to compete in Div 1 but would like a handy route to latter stages of All Ireland.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2006 - 22/10/2021 21:27:33
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Replying To Rolo2010: "1 to 6 from Div 1 in QF. 1 to 3 in Div 2 + Tailteann Cup winners in PQF." I presume you mean Tailteann cup winners from previous season because if you meant current season there obviously would not be sufficent time to run 4 off rounds of the Tailteann Cup to get the winner into PQF
Having the 6th placed team from Div. 1 qualifying is ideal.At least the bottom 2 teams that are missing out on qualifying are the 2 relegated teams and will be in Div. 2 the following year anyway.
I presume top 5 in Div. 1 and winner of Div. 2 would be straight to QF with 6th in Div. 1 playing Tailteann Cup winners and 2nd in Div. 2 playing 3nd in Div. 2 in the PQF.
This format could operate from the 2nd year onwards with the current Proposal B qualifying structure operating for the 1st year as there is no previous seasons Tailteann cup winners in the 1st year.
It also means that all Div. 3 and Div. 4 teams are competing for the All Ireland but it is the following years All Ireland they are competing for by winning the current seasons Tailteann Cup.
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 30 - 22/10/2021 21:54:05
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Really should have been a Proposal D (Jim McGuinness plan) which links both Provincials and League. I think League would have to come after Provincials so every county knows how many places are up for grabs. I think it would easily get over 60% because it keeps a provincial link which is the big negative for Proposal B.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 23/10/2021 07:49:41
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If you ended the season with 3 Championships
1 Sam Maguire 12 teams in 4 groups of 3, top 2 to quarterfinals. Top teams getting home advantage
2 Tailteann Cup 12 teams in 4 groups of 3, top 2 to quarterfinals. Top teams getting home advantage
3 Páidí Ó Sé Cup 8 teams in 2 groups of 4
Sam Maguire includes previous season's champions, previous season's Tailteann Cup Champions
Current season's provincial champions
Remaining teams based on national league rankings with promoted teams from the lower division ranking higher than relegated teams from the higher division
Tailteann Cup includes previous season's Páidí Ó Sé Cup champions
Remaining teams based on national league rankings
Remaining 8 teams into the Páidí Ó Sé Cup
You can play NFL and Provincials in parallel prior to the All Ireland
The final round of the league can be played as late at May bank holiday weekend, with Provincial finals the weekend afterwards and there still be good time to play the championship.
Every team can win the championship by winning their province but the league is kept fully competitive because teams can't just jump ahead of those finishing way above them.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 23/10/2021 08:50:49
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Replying To sam1884: "True but as things stand it's unlikely Meath could play in Division 1 and play championship football, yes they'd play in the league and have every chance of being promoted to Division 1 but looking at their record when they were up it's diffcult to see them getting into the top 5 to allow them into the championship.
Meath like four or five other teams around them would be better off playing in a competitive Division 2 with a realistic opportunity of competing in the championship. Play Div 1 and in all likehood they can forget the championship, I don't think this has been discussed enough but counties around Meath's level who want to play Division 1 stand to lose more than they'd gain from Proposal B and over time I think players around that level would get fed up.
It'll suit the very best teams, even the quarter final draw would suit them and teams in Division 3 and 4 who'd have a realistic chance of championship football but those with aspirations to get one of the last few Division 1 places and play at that level have a huge gap to fill to push on into the top 5.
It's why I think struggling in Division 1 will ultimately be of no benefit to counties, they'd be safer dropping down a league." The post I previously sent in was a follow on from talking about inter county teams getting more meaningful games and how the championship is the primary competition in Gaelic football.
I was talking about in the current intercounty competition structure (which has most games in the secondary competition rather than the primary competition) that yes most Meath supporters would really like to see our team be in division 1 of the league on a more consistent basis.
But getting there was not really seen as an end in itself. The reason we want to be there is we feel being in division 1 on a consistent basis, playing better teams more often would improve us so we could get back to being more competitive in the primary competition, the championship.
Fundamentally the current intercounty competition structure where teams play most games in the secondary competition rather than the primary competition just doesn't make sense. This is the case much more so now than previously as the level of preparation intercounty teams put in is so big.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1337 - 23/10/2021 09:47:34
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Replying To Whammo86: "If you ended the season with 3 Championships
1 Sam Maguire 12 teams in 4 groups of 3, top 2 to quarterfinals. Top teams getting home advantage
2 Tailteann Cup 12 teams in 4 groups of 3, top 2 to quarterfinals. Top teams getting home advantage
3 Páidí Ó Sé Cup 8 teams in 2 groups of 4
Sam Maguire includes previous season's champions, previous season's Tailteann Cup Champions
Current season's provincial champions
Remaining teams based on national league rankings with promoted teams from the lower division ranking higher than relegated teams from the higher division
Tailteann Cup includes previous season's Páidí Ó Sé Cup champions
Remaining teams based on national league rankings
Remaining 8 teams into the Páidí Ó Sé Cup
You can play NFL and Provincials in parallel prior to the All Ireland
The final round of the league can be played as late at May bank holiday weekend, with Provincial finals the weekend afterwards and there still be good time to play the championship.
Every team can win the championship by winning their province but the league is kept fully competitive because teams can't just jump ahead of those finishing way above them." I think three tiers would struggle to get support but it wouldn't be bad idea. Not sure about groups because I think it would end up making the season too long.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 23/10/2021 10:25:50
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Lads what about the dubs getting 6-7 games at home under this new proposal?
dublin should have to play their quarterfinals away from crokepark.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 23/10/2021 10:27:05
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Replying To edu: "I presume you mean Tailteann cup winners from previous season because if you meant current season there obviously would not be sufficent time to run 4 off rounds of the Tailteann Cup to get the winner into PQF
Having the 6th placed team from Div. 1 qualifying is ideal.At least the bottom 2 teams that are missing out on qualifying are the 2 relegated teams and will be in Div. 2 the following year anyway.
I presume top 5 in Div. 1 and winner of Div. 2 would be straight to QF with 6th in Div. 1 playing Tailteann Cup winners and 2nd in Div. 2 playing 3nd in Div. 2 in the PQF.
This format could operate from the 2nd year onwards with the current Proposal B qualifying structure operating for the 1st year as there is no previous seasons Tailteann cup winners in the 1st year.
It also means that all Div. 3 and Div. 4 teams are competing for the All Ireland but it is the following years All Ireland they are competing for by winning the current seasons Tailteann Cup." TC winners from previous year.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 23/10/2021 10:27:36
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Replying To Rolo2010: "I think three tiers would struggle to get support but it wouldn't be bad idea. Not sure about groups because I think it would end up making the season too long." I think February, March, April and first half of May is enough time to play the league and provincials.
You're talking then 9 weeks left to play the All Ireland where the finalists play 5 games. It feels very do-able to me in the time they're talking about for the season.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 23/10/2021 10:40:12
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Really should have been a Proposal D (Jim McGuinness plan) which links both Provincials and League. I think League would have to come after Provincials so every county knows how many places are up for grabs. I think it would easily get over 60% because it keeps a provincial link which is the big negative for Proposal B." Yeah the Jim McGuiness plan would be worth going with if it were on the table.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 23/10/2021 10:45:34
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Replying To Whammo86: "If you ended the season with 3 Championships
1 Sam Maguire 12 teams in 4 groups of 3, top 2 to quarterfinals. Top teams getting home advantage
2 Tailteann Cup 12 teams in 4 groups of 3, top 2 to quarterfinals. Top teams getting home advantage
3 Páidí Ó Sé Cup 8 teams in 2 groups of 4
Sam Maguire includes previous season's champions, previous season's Tailteann Cup Champions
Current season's provincial champions
Remaining teams based on national league rankings with promoted teams from the lower division ranking higher than relegated teams from the higher division
Tailteann Cup includes previous season's Páidí Ó Sé Cup champions
Remaining teams based on national league rankings
Remaining 8 teams into the Páidí Ó Sé Cup
You can play NFL and Provincials in parallel prior to the All Ireland
The final round of the league can be played as late at May bank holiday weekend, with Provincial finals the weekend afterwards and there still be good time to play the championship.
Every team can win the championship by winning their province but the league is kept fully competitive because teams can't just jump ahead of those finishing way above them." Possibly in the future a third tier competition might be merited. That's a few evolutionary steps away and beyond the current scope of change.
If Plan B fails, the National League could be reduced to divisions of 5 or 6 matches. Retain the provincial championships and allow for 50% representation from each province in the All-Ireland Top 16. 3 Munster, 3 Connaught, 4 or 5 Ulster and 5 or 6 Leinster.
Top 16 in 4 groups of 4:
Pot 1: Provincial winners.
Pot 2: League ranking best 4.
Pot 3: League ranking middle 4.
Pot 4: League ranking bottom 4.
Provincial winners should be guaranteed 2 home games. Provincial runners-up, though not seeded in Pot 2, should also be granted 2 home games and drawn in a separate group to other provincial runners-up. Top 2 from each group into the quarter-finals.
The teams not making the Top 16 can play out in the Tailteann Cup. I wouldn't grant the Tailteann winner a Final 16 spot in the following year as all teams have a 50-50 chance of qualifying from their province in this suggested format.
The Tailteann Cup winner could be given the carrot of 2 home games in the Top 16 in the following year, should they qualify. This would mean a provincial runner-up in the same group as the Tailteann winner would have only 1 home game.
The First Round of the Tailteann Cup could be played over two legs home and away. Quarter-finals onwards then being straight knockout.
Reduced League matches suggestion:
Division 1: 6 teams. Top 2 final and bottom team relegated.
Division 2: 6 teams. Top 2 final winner promoted and bottom team relegated.
Division 3: 6 teams. Top 2 final winner promoted and bottom team relegated.
Division A: 6 teams. Top 2 final winner promoted and bottom team relegated.
Division B: 4 teams. Play all opponents home and away. Division winner promoted without final and bottom team relegated.
Division C: 4 teams. Play all opponents home and away. Division winner promoted without final.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 23/10/2021 10:57:36
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Replying To Saynothing: "It's funny the 13 teams that have declared their support for Proposal B are teams not good enough to compete in Div 1 but would like a handy route to latter stages of All Ireland." Complete nonsense, there all well aware they won't win the All Ireland in any structure, they just want more games for their players further into the year.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 23/10/2021 11:08:18
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Replying To legendzxix: "Possibly in the future a third tier competition might be merited. That's a few evolutionary steps away and beyond the current scope of change.
If Plan B fails, the National League could be reduced to divisions of 5 or 6 matches. Retain the provincial championships and allow for 50% representation from each province in the All-Ireland Top 16. 3 Munster, 3 Connaught, 4 or 5 Ulster and 5 or 6 Leinster.
Top 16 in 4 groups of 4:
Pot 1: Provincial winners.
Pot 2: League ranking best 4.
Pot 3: League ranking middle 4.
Pot 4: League ranking bottom 4.
Provincial winners should be guaranteed 2 home games. Provincial runners-up, though not seeded in Pot 2, should also be granted 2 home games and drawn in a separate group to other provincial runners-up. Top 2 from each group into the quarter-finals.
The teams not making the Top 16 can play out in the Tailteann Cup. I wouldn't grant the Tailteann winner a Final 16 spot in the following year as all teams have a 50-50 chance of qualifying from their province in this suggested format.
The Tailteann Cup winner could be given the carrot of 2 home games in the Top 16 in the following year, should they qualify. This would mean a provincial runner-up in the same group as the Tailteann winner would have only 1 home game.
The First Round of the Tailteann Cup could be played over two legs home and away. Quarter-finals onwards then being straight knockout.
Reduced League matches suggestion:
Division 1: 6 teams. Top 2 final and bottom team relegated.
Division 2: 6 teams. Top 2 final winner promoted and bottom team relegated.
Division 3: 6 teams. Top 2 final winner promoted and bottom team relegated.
Division A: 6 teams. Top 2 final winner promoted and bottom team relegated.
Division B: 4 teams. Play all opponents home and away. Division winner promoted without final and bottom team relegated.
Division C: 4 teams. Play all opponents home and away. Division winner promoted without final." I'd be strongly against.
Provincials need to become less important rather than more important in terms of determining All Ireland places.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 23/10/2021 11:21:03
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Replying To edu: "I presume you mean Tailteann cup winners from previous season because if you meant current season there obviously would not be sufficent time to run 4 off rounds of the Tailteann Cup to get the winner into PQF
Having the 6th placed team from Div. 1 qualifying is ideal.At least the bottom 2 teams that are missing out on qualifying are the 2 relegated teams and will be in Div. 2 the following year anyway.
I presume top 5 in Div. 1 and winner of Div. 2 would be straight to QF with 6th in Div. 1 playing Tailteann Cup winners and 2nd in Div. 2 playing 3nd in Div. 2 in the PQF.
This format could operate from the 2nd year onwards with the current Proposal B qualifying structure operating for the 1st year as there is no previous seasons Tailteann cup winners in the 1st year.
It also means that all Div. 3 and Div. 4 teams are competing for the All Ireland but it is the following years All Ireland they are competing for by winning the current seasons Tailteann Cup." Addition to above. Any Div. 3 or Div. 4 team winning a provincial championship qualify for All Ireland series . Maximum of one- if more than one[extremely unlikely] then highest placed team from league qualify.If a team from Div.3 or Div. 4 qualify in this manner then the 6th placed team in Div. 1 misses out.This would mean that every county are in the race for Sam and Div. 3 or Div. 4 team qualifying in this manner have qualified on merit as they will obviously would have had to have beaten Div. 1 and Div. 2 teams in order to do so and not because they won a lower ranking league/division.
The following would really spice up Div. 1
Div. 1 Winner - directly to All Ireland semi final
Div. 1- 2nd 3nd Div 2 winner to All Ireland QF [only 3 QFs]
Div. 1 - 4th 5th 6th Div. 2- 2nd 3nd + Tailteann Cup winners [previous season] to PQF.
There would be a huge incentive to actually finish top of Dv. 1 as you are only one game away from All Ireland Final as compared to 4th 5th 6th as you are 3 games from same.
Tailteann Cup- There will obviously be a lot of dead rubber games in Div.4 .With no relegation teams will be out of the running after 3 or 4 games. I suggest that the bottom 2 teams do not qualify for Tailteann Cup.
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 30 - 23/10/2021 11:56:27
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Replying To wexico15: "Complete nonsense, there all well aware they won't win the All Ireland in any structure, they just want more games for their players further into the year." Except 3 counties competing in Div 1 get knocked out but the Division 4 winners get a place in PQF. Hopefully this awful plan fails.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 23/10/2021 12:20:15
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