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No I don't think it should be banned.
As people have called out the onus is on the player making the shoulder to execute it correctly and make sure that it is shoulder to shoulder. Players do enough S&C in order to take a fair shoulder these days. However when it is mis-timed and contact to the head is made it's a red card without question.
The last night John Small didn't execute the shoulder correctly. He needed to get his body a bit lower in order to make sure that he met MacLaughlin shoulder to shoulder. In doing this, he would have lost some of the momentum going in for it and MacLaughlin should have been able to continue playing (probably after taking a tumble).
UsernameInvalid (Meath) - Posts: 355 - 19/08/2021 11:38:43
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Just by looking at the comments here it's very easy to have a fair guess at the age of the posters and they are perfectly entitled to their views but we had the same views when helmets became compulsory in hurling, "the game is finished", "sure how can you play the game properly wearing a helmet", the usual old fashioned agricultural nonsense.
Shoulder tackles are pretty rare in the modern game now and what do they add anyway ?
Saying it will take the "physicality" out of the game is pure old fashioned nonsense. There was plenty of physicality on show last Saturday night without "shouldering".
It's a totally rare and outdated tackle in the modern game and that could be one reason why there is a higher risk of it going wrong in todays game, but it's also normal for people to be terrified of change.
I don't care if it stays or goes but it wouldn't be much of a loss if it was gone.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 19/08/2021 12:06:09
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Replying To AfricanGael: "Just by looking at the comments here it's very easy to have a fair guess at the age of the posters and they are perfectly entitled to their views but we had the same views when helmets became compulsory in hurling, "the game is finished", "sure how can you play the game properly wearing a helmet", the usual old fashioned agricultural nonsense.
Shoulder tackles are pretty rare in the modern game now and what do they add anyway ?
Saying it will take the "physicality" out of the game is pure old fashioned nonsense. There was plenty of physicality on show last Saturday night without "shouldering".
It's a totally rare and outdated tackle in the modern game and that could be one reason why there is a higher risk of it going wrong in todays game, but it's also normal for people to be terrified of change.
I don't care if it stays or goes but it wouldn't be much of a loss if it was gone." I'm not terrified of change AfricanGael. Your argument could be reversed. I have lived a few years and my hair colour is noticeably more grey than it used to be. I have noticed in more recent times that change can come on the basis of over reaction to events. Taking the shoulder tackle out of the game on the basis of what happened to Eoghan McLoughlin last Saturday would be just such an over reaction. There is no question but that the physical aspect of the game has been diluted over the years. The possession game has diluted the physical aspect of the game because you don't have as many contests around the ball in order to win loose ball. Refereeing has changed and the level of physical contact allowed has been reduced significantly. It's very common now to see perfect shoulder tackles punished a la Kieran McGeary's shoulder tackle in the championship this year against Donegal. You'd be within your rights AfricanGael to say if it's not being refereed properly then it should be taken out of the game. I wouldn't agree. The physical element of the game is part of the game and I feel that the shoulder tackle should be retained.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 19/08/2021 12:42:24
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Replying To UsernameInvalid: "No I don't think it should be banned.
As people have called out the onus is on the player making the shoulder to execute it correctly and make sure that it is shoulder to shoulder. Players do enough S&C in order to take a fair shoulder these days. However when it is mis-timed and contact to the head is made it's a red card without question.
The last night John Small didn't execute the shoulder correctly. He needed to get his body a bit lower in order to make sure that he met MacLaughlin shoulder to shoulder. In doing this, he would have lost some of the momentum going in for it and MacLaughlin should have been able to continue playing (probably after taking a tumble)." He could also have dispossessed McLoughlin in a much easier way though or do you think his focus was more on man as opposed to actually gaining possession of the ball which after all is the objective?
Even if he had never connected with McLoughlins head the chance of cleanly executing a proper shoulder to shoulder in those circumstances were low.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 19/08/2021 12:45:17
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Replying To Greengrass: "I'm not terrified of change AfricanGael. Your argument could be reversed. I have lived a few years and my hair colour is noticeably more grey than it used to be. I have noticed in more recent times that change can come on the basis of over reaction to events. Taking the shoulder tackle out of the game on the basis of what happened to Eoghan McLoughlin last Saturday would be just such an over reaction. There is no question but that the physical aspect of the game has been diluted over the years. The possession game has diluted the physical aspect of the game because you don't have as many contests around the ball in order to win loose ball. Refereeing has changed and the level of physical contact allowed has been reduced significantly. It's very common now to see perfect shoulder tackles punished a la Kieran McGeary's shoulder tackle in the championship this year against Donegal. You'd be within your rights AfricanGael to say if it's not being refereed properly then it should be taken out of the game. I wouldn't agree. The physical element of the game is part of the game and I feel that the shoulder tackle should be retained." Yes Greengrass, but your greying hair was gradual but if someone had said to you when you were 20, tomorrow morning you will wake up and your hair will all have turned grey overnight, I think it's fair to say that the thought would have been terrifying !
I should probably have said "sudden" change.
Ah no it's not because of what happened to McLoughlin at all, there has been talk of this for years, even on this forum.
Back in early 2014 there was a thread on here titled "Time to outlaw the shoulder to shoulder tackle".
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 19/08/2021 12:55:29
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Replying To AfricanGael: "Yes Greengrass, but your greying hair was gradual but if someone had said to you when you were 20, tomorrow morning you will wake up and your hair will all have turned grey overnight, I think it's fair to say that the thought would have been terrifying !
I should probably have said "sudden" change.
Ah no it's not because of what happened to McLoughlin at all, there has been talk of this for years, even on this forum.
Back in early 2014 there was a thread on here titled "Time to outlaw the shoulder to shoulder tackle"." In fairness you're right about the graying of my head AfricanGael. It slowly crept up on me. You're some man to be able to pull up a thread from seven years back. I would have argued for the retention of the shoulder tackle then and I still would. It's not that I am opposed to change be that sudden change or not. There have been a number of changes introduced in to both hurling and football and it is highly questionable as to whether either game has been improved. In my own opinion the advanced mark is ridiculous. What did the powers that be do the following year? They introduced the defensive mark. Jesus wept !!!
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 19/08/2021 13:13:07
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Can people who are complaining about Smalls tackle give their opinion on Brian Hogans "tackle" at the end of the 2014 drawn final? Not like for like but I'm interested in anyone that has issue with Small's tackel, what they made of that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RpPtgzPY_o
1:44:26 is the time.
tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 19/08/2021 13:16:26
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Replying To essmac: "Should they be banned? Admittedly, against faster and more skilful opponents, for some of us, they often were all we had to fall back on, and part of me would be sad to see them go; but times have changed.
Even 30 years ago, there was more skill than you'd think in lining a man up for a good shoulder. Too far away, and he'd turn you; too close, and it was just a shove.
But players are now so fast and agile; nobody 'braces for impact' any more, they try to dodge anyway; your target is always moving / spinning away, and the chances of actually connecting with a clean shoulder to your opponent's shoulder nowadays are are slim to none. It's more likely that you will miss the shoulder and drive into someone's back or chest (or head).
Nobody relies on shoulder tackles as a key part of their defence any more. Defensively, they're not even needed.
Should we not just get rid of them? Before someone sues somebody." My god what a load of nonsense.
What next? Ban tackling in the game of rugby??!!
Seriously just pure and utter nonsense.
Through my years of playing gaelic games I've had my nose broke, hand broke, dislocated shoulder, stitched up pretty much everywhere, etc,. And I'm pretty sure the same goes for anyone who spent a life time playing gaelic games.
And i was the opposite to the type of player that loved the rough & tumble by the way..
But i also understood things like what happened last Sat night are unfortunately bound to happen from time to time in a CONTACT SPORT!
EVERYONE knows the risks. If you don't like it don't play the sport. Its that simple.
ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 2007 - 19/08/2021 13:24:25
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Replying To Greengrass: " Replying To AfricanGael: "Yes Greengrass, but your greying hair was gradual but if someone had said to you when you were 20, tomorrow morning you will wake up and your hair will all have turned grey overnight, I think it's fair to say that the thought would have been terrifying !
I should probably have said "sudden" change.
Ah no it's not because of what happened to McLoughlin at all, there has been talk of this for years, even on this forum.
Back in early 2014 there was a thread on here titled "Time to outlaw the shoulder to shoulder tackle"." In fairness you're right about the graying of my head AfricanGael. It slowly crept up on me. You're some man to be able to pull up a thread from seven years back. I would have argued for the retention of the shoulder tackle then and I still would. It's not that I am opposed to change be that sudden change or not. There have been a number of changes introduced in to both hurling and football and it is highly questionable as to whether either game has been improved. In my own opinion the advanced mark is ridiculous. What did the powers that be do the following year? They introduced the defensive mark. Jesus wept !!!"
Time to outlaw the shoulder to shoulder tackle?
I ask this from the viewpoint of player welfare only.
With the strength & conditioning of today's player the potential for real hurt & damage when a tackler lines up & hits an opponent who may not be ready for the impact is huge. I have seen tackles in the last couple of years that are within the rules but are also very dangerous & I can't help but feel that steps need to be taken.
In my view if a player is tackled in this manner without him being aware of what is coming then a foul should be awarded & a card produced. The first responsibility of any player & referee is to the safety of all taking part & some of the bone shuddering challenges cannot be regarded as safe.
The icing on the cake with this is the player who lines up an opponent, takes him out with a body check that would draw gasps of admiration in American Football, gets blown up & then protests his innocence, pointing to his shoulder. These thugs use the shoulder to shoulder tackle as cover to commit assaults that would get them arrested off the field. It's time to put a stop to it.
MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 4998 - 17/02/2014 13:02:09
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 19/08/2021 13:25:49
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This is Darren O'Sullivans opinion on the subject :
"My personal opinion is that fellas have gotten so strong and are so physical now, that I don't think that type of shoulder should be allowed.
Someone else might say 'you're taking the physicality out of it', keep the physicality, that's fine. But if you're hitting a fella like that blind, and you get it wrong or are a couple of inches bigger and connect (with the head), you have a serious injury.
A broken jaw is a serious injury, but look (Eoin McLaughlin) will get over it. It could be way worse than that.
My personal opinion is that if someone can't see you and you're lining him up, and John Small is a big guy, if he hits you blind I don't care if he only hits you in the shoulder. You're in trouble, you're getting hurt.
It's too dangerous. Fellas are too strong, they are machines now, they're all in the gym. It's like being in a car crash that you can't see coming.
Personally I think it should be gone. As a defender there is no reason why you can't be there to stand him up or whatever.
It's too dangerous. If you're off by a fraction, a bit late or early or too high, it's too serious of an injury.
In the speed of a game it looked like a shoulder, but I think it's a bigger issue than that. That whole lining a fella up, you can't do it in rugby.
There is no problem with physicality, but with the angle they were going at there was no way he could have hit him shoulder to shoulder, there was always a chance he would hit him in the face.
You have to nip that in the bud...
I love the big hits, but fellas are too strong. You even see it in the club game, lads are in the gym and especially during lockdown lads got big and strong.
Everyone wants the big hit and it's a recipe for disaster...
You're not in control. If I'm the one lining you up for a shoulder, you're not in control at all. You could see me last minute and take a slight move, and I'm getting you straight in the face".
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 19/08/2021 13:38:35
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Replying To tiobraid: "Can people who are complaining about Smalls tackle give their opinion on Brian Hogans "tackle" at the end of the 2014 drawn final? Not like for like but I'm interested in anyone that has issue with Small's tackel, what they made of that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RpPtgzPY_o
1:44:26 is the time." Ridiculous decision from the referee.
Gavvygavgav (Dublin) - Posts: 382 - 19/08/2021 14:05:14
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Replying To AfricanGael: "Just by looking at the comments here it's very easy to have a fair guess at the age of the posters and they are perfectly entitled to their views but we had the same views when helmets became compulsory in hurling, "the game is finished", "sure how can you play the game properly wearing a helmet", the usual old fashioned agricultural nonsense.
Shoulder tackles are pretty rare in the modern game now and what do they add anyway ?
Saying it will take the "physicality" out of the game is pure old fashioned nonsense. There was plenty of physicality on show last Saturday night without "shouldering".
It's a totally rare and outdated tackle in the modern game and that could be one reason why there is a higher risk of it going wrong in todays game, but it's also normal for people to be terrified of change.
I don't care if it stays or goes but it wouldn't be much of a loss if it was gone." I wouldn't put the helmet rule
20 years from now when they're removing high fielding from the game because it's deemed unsafe for two men to jump so high close together lest one lands on the other once they fall down, you'll be defending that rule change by saying "sure there was once a time when people objected to the shoulder charge".
20 years after that when physical contact is deemed unsafe and kids are stopped from playing the game altogether you'll be saying "sure there was once a time when people objected to the banning of high fielding".
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1706 - 19/08/2021 14:21:30
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Replying To Galway9801: "I wouldn't put the helmet rule
20 years from now when they're removing high fielding from the game because it's deemed unsafe for two men to jump so high close together lest one lands on the other once they fall down, you'll be defending that rule change by saying "sure there was once a time when people objected to the shoulder charge".
20 years after that when physical contact is deemed unsafe and kids are stopped from playing the game altogether you'll be saying "sure there was once a time when people objected to the banning of high fielding"." That was meant to say I wouldn't put the helmet rule next to the banning of shoulder charges in terms of importance.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1706 - 19/08/2021 14:29:09
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Replying To AfricanGael: "Yes Greengrass, but your greying hair was gradual but if someone had said to you when you were 20, tomorrow morning you will wake up and your hair will all have turned grey overnight, I think it's fair to say that the thought would have been terrifying !
I should probably have said "sudden" change.
Ah no it's not because of what happened to McLoughlin at all, there has been talk of this for years, even on this forum.
Back in early 2014 there was a thread on here titled "Time to outlaw the shoulder to shoulder tackle"." I'm pretty sure you weren't around these boards in 2014. Well, not under your current name anyway.
Jackeen (Dublin) - Posts: 4097 - 19/08/2021 14:41:29
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Replying To tiobraid: "Can people who are complaining about Smalls tackle give their opinion on Brian Hogans "tackle" at the end of the 2014 drawn final? Not like for like but I'm interested in anyone that has issue with Small's tackel, what they made of that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RpPtgzPY_o
1:44:26 is the time." The two aren't even close. In one you have the player with the ball causing the contact in the other you have the defender causing the contact. In one you had minimal contact in the other you have serious contact. Brian Horgan had position when he was ran into, soft free but still charging. McLaughlin caught the ball and was then charged into by Small. Totally different situation. Not even apples to oranges more like apples to onions
cluichethar (Mayo) - Posts: 454 - 19/08/2021 14:47:07
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Replying To bad.monkey: "So if the player in possession sees the shoulder coming lined up straight but decides to turn away at the last second knowing it will be a red card thats ok?" I agree... Disgraceful play acting from Eoghan McLaughlin the other night, turning his head in to the tackle to try and get poor John Small sent off.
roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 19/08/2021 14:49:56
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Replying To AfricanGael: "He could also have dispossessed McLoughlin in a much easier way though or do you think his focus was more on man as opposed to actually gaining possession of the ball which after all is the objective?
Even if he had never connected with McLoughlins head the chance of cleanly executing a proper shoulder to shoulder in those circumstances were low." He could have stood him up but the handpass left MacLaughlin open. Small probably thought this is a great opportunity to lay a big hit on a Mayo player.
Instead of getting rid of the shoulder, would looking at increasing the suspension for players who make contact with head. If you mis-time a shoulder and get a person in the head then it's an automatic 3 game suspension. That should reduce the amount of lads willing to lead with the shoulder and would be more inclined to stand a man up.
UsernameInvalid (Meath) - Posts: 355 - 19/08/2021 15:19:07
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Replying To Jackeen: " Replying To AfricanGael: "Yes Greengrass, but your greying hair was gradual but if someone had said to you when you were 20, tomorrow morning you will wake up and your hair will all have turned grey overnight, I think it's fair to say that the thought would have been terrifying !
I should probably have said "sudden" change.
Ah no it's not because of what happened to McLoughlin at all, there has been talk of this for years, even on this forum.
Back in early 2014 there was a thread on here titled "Time to outlaw the shoulder to shoulder tackle"." I'm pretty sure you weren't around these boards in 2014. Well, not under your current name anyway."
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 19/08/2021 16:24:52
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Replying To Gaa Fan: "No. Implement the existing rule. Has served the Assoc. well for many decades. Less shouldering nowadays anyway. However high arm/hand tackles to the neck and head have gotten out of hand." Yeah, I think keep them but if something catches someone incorrectly it has to be a red regardless of perceived intent.
High tackles around the neck or head need to be red also.
There needs to be an outcome based approach to tackles and there needs to be an onus on players to look after others.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4223 - 19/08/2021 16:35:15
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Replying To AfricanGael: "I'm pretty sure you weren't around these boards in 2014. Well, not under your current name anyway." I'm pretty sure you were though'."]Indeed I was. Since 2008.
Jackeen (Dublin) - Posts: 4097 - 19/08/2021 16:59:06
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