National Forum

VAR In GAA

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Replying To MesAmis:  "Small's offence wasn't blatant though. Yes when you watched it slow motion and saw still framed photos it was clearly a foul but at the time it wasn't clear.

The referee got a difficult call wrong, had there been VAR Small would have gotten the line but VAR still wouldn't have deterred Small from making the challenge. He got the line in the 2017 final for a similar challenge and it hasn't deterred him.

There are 100s of little and not so little fouls in games that players get away with. You can't check all of them. Once you bring in VAR there will be calls to bring it in for more and more of the game as well as complaints about how it's getting stuff wrong anyway. It's pointless.

We either get over ourselves and grow up or we keep crying like toddlers but only about the stuff that went against us not about the stuff that went for us."
Surely the simple solution, as has often been said, is to put a limit on the number of VAR checks that can be made? Give each team a maximum of 3 VAR checks. Matches can turn on one controversial incident. Very rare that any team would have even 3 major talking points to feel aggrieved about in a single game. Give each team 3 calls, and that'll prevent them over-using it for trivial stuff. And VAR calls should be by request of the team captain, to prevent the ref making all the calls for one team, or wasting them on stuff that wasn't important.

If it was done that way, there wouldn't be much disruption and it'd be a sight better than driving up the road knowing you were robbed by a flawed decision.

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 25/08/2021 10:43:24    2374603

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Replying To lumpitin21:  "Is it time for the GAA to start looking at video assisted referees? With a replay Dublin could have lost 4 or 5 players last night through cynical and dangerous play. John Smalls challenge could have resulted in a goal which would have completely changed the outcome of the game. At the business end of things it comes down to small margins and refereeing can massively impact the outcome of a game."
No. VAR has made a complete pig's ear of soccer. It's a joke. Leave it where it is,

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 26/08/2021 03:38:31    2374833

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Replying To ifindoubt:  "The crisis in refereeing is primarily to the definition of the tackle.If referees went by the rule book they would be stopping play for frees every few seconds for frees and then the referees would get sick for not letting the game flow.

In real time Smalls tackle on Mc Loughlin looked like a good shoulder.

It is a very difficult task to ref an inter county game with so much physicality involved.The GAA need to address the rules and clarify the tackle.

And there are plenty of people out there giving out about referees who would not have the back bone to referee."
Totally agree. Can you imagine if it was applied to the steps rule? It would kill the game.

avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1974 - 26/08/2021 09:33:30    2374848

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People seem to be mis-understanding (what I would see anyway) as where this will be used.
1. Off the ball incidents (e.g. Peter Casey incident) where a referee thinks he might need to send a player off.
2. "Last play of the match" e.g. the Limerick line ball v Kilkenny in 2019.

I think anything other than that, forget it.

But I've just thought of an Irish solution. Maybe we need to ask RTE to stop showing replays of these incidents? Keep the referee and the TV viewer on the same page at least......

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1737 - 26/08/2021 09:39:28    2374852

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Replying To Soma:  "The South African rugby coach managed to make a 1 hour long video on all the refereeing mistakes in a single game earlier this summer, and this is despite up to 30 minutes in every game being spent waiting for the video referee to watch incidents back. I'd say most rugby supporters would be delighted to see the video referee scrapped at this stage. Lots of match going soccer fans would have a similar view about Var."
No they wouldnt.
VAR is getting it in the neck so much in soccer because it has a very limited function and gets it very wrong. plenty of what is covered by Video ref in rugby can be technical and getting rid of it would not be good for the game.
care to show anywhere that shows "most rugby supporters would be delighted to see the video referee scrapped"?

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3512 - 26/08/2021 10:17:56    2374869

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A video ref in GAA would be very useful at the top level, if even just for Croke Park. The function would need to be:

To review referee's decision on any potentially black/red card incidents.
To check off-the-ball incidents for possible black/red cards.

In the event of a goal:
To check square ball in the event of a goal. (If possible, and with a fairly generous margin of error in favour of the attacker. None of this drawing straight precise lines onto a blurry pitch nonsense.)
To check the ball hasn't been handpassed or thrown into net.
To check for double-hop in immediate run-up to a goal.

A video ref cannot be used to police steps, picking the ball off the ground, or throw balls. It also can't be used to decide line-balls, 45s etc. I would doubt a video ref can cleanly deal with simulation.

None of the above functions would take any time to complete.

SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 384 - 26/08/2021 11:04:36    2374882

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Replying To KillingFields:  "No they wouldnt.
VAR is getting it in the neck so much in soccer because it has a very limited function and gets it very wrong. plenty of what is covered by Video ref in rugby can be technical and getting rid of it would not be good for the game.
care to show anywhere that shows "most rugby supporters would be delighted to see the video referee scrapped"?"
Mick Cleary, who was one of the best writers on rugby until his recent retirement, began a piece earlier this summer with:
"Marius Jonker - don't take this personally but there are thousands of rugby fans who would be delighted if they were never to hear another word from you. Or any other Television Match Official. If the third test in Cape Town on Saturday is as stop-start constipated as last weekend's bitty, punchy, niggly, TMO-centric match then many of us will reach for the 'Off' button and wonder whatever happened to the more straightforward, honest, get-on-with-it rugby we used to love and engage with, faults and all."
Many rugby fans are absolutely fed up of sitting waiting for the TMO to look at 15 replays of an incident to make a very marginal call. Games that are supposed to last 80 mins are now taking over 120 minutes, it's a shambles.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 26/08/2021 15:54:10    2375010

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Replying To KillingFields:  "No they wouldnt.
VAR is getting it in the neck so much in soccer because it has a very limited function and gets it very wrong. plenty of what is covered by Video ref in rugby can be technical and getting rid of it would not be good for the game.
care to show anywhere that shows "most rugby supporters would be delighted to see the video referee scrapped"?"
You know more about it than me KillingFields and I agree with what you say about the TMO in rugby. I just find at times that it takes a long time for decisions to be made and the flow of the game can be disrupted.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 26/08/2021 16:17:29    2375017

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Replying To Soma:  "Mick Cleary, who was one of the best writers on rugby until his recent retirement, began a piece earlier this summer with:
"Marius Jonker - don't take this personally but there are thousands of rugby fans who would be delighted if they were never to hear another word from you. Or any other Television Match Official. If the third test in Cape Town on Saturday is as stop-start constipated as last weekend's bitty, punchy, niggly, TMO-centric match then many of us will reach for the 'Off' button and wonder whatever happened to the more straightforward, honest, get-on-with-it rugby we used to love and engage with, faults and all."
Many rugby fans are absolutely fed up of sitting waiting for the TMO to look at 15 replays of an incident to make a very marginal call. Games that are supposed to last 80 mins are now taking over 120 minutes, it's a shambles."
Oh because Mick Cleary wrote something means it has to be write.
Reducing the TMO completely would be detrimental to the game. it can be speeded up in some cases but you cant completely reduce the role of the TMO or you have clowns like yourself criticising refs for missing something and not then using the additional officials. its a lose lose situation

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3512 - 26/08/2021 18:36:55    2375045

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Oh because Mick Cleary wrote something means it has to be write.
Reducing the TMO completely would be detrimental to the game. it can be speeded up in some cases but you cant completely reduce the role of the TMO or you have clowns like yourself criticising refs for missing something and not then using the additional officials. its a lose lose situation"
Mick Cleary is one of the best writers on rugby over the past 20 years and has his finger on the pulse, were you expecting me to conduct a poll of every rugby watcher to support my views? No point engaging with anyone who resorts to insulting posters anyway, I don't think iv ever criticised a referee in my time posting here.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 26/08/2021 22:11:54    2375098

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Replying To SurelyToGod:  "A video ref in GAA would be very useful at the top level, if even just for Croke Park. The function would need to be:

To review referee's decision on any potentially black/red card incidents.
To check off-the-ball incidents for possible black/red cards.

In the event of a goal:
To check square ball in the event of a goal. (If possible, and with a fairly generous margin of error in favour of the attacker. None of this drawing straight precise lines onto a blurry pitch nonsense.)
To check the ball hasn't been handpassed or thrown into net.
To check for double-hop in immediate run-up to a goal.

A video ref cannot be used to police steps, picking the ball off the ground, or throw balls. It also can't be used to decide line-balls, 45s etc. I would doubt a video ref can cleanly deal with simulation.

None of the above functions would take any time to complete."
Too complicated to have a video ref. You just need to keep it as simple as possible. As other posters have said teams should have 2 or 3 challenges per game. The Captain or manager has a minute to challenge and the onfield ref can come to a pitchside monitor and review. There's no need for the video ref. It would be too complicated and would challenge he the authority of the onfield ref . Keep it simple. It works in NFL.

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 27/08/2021 08:12:23    2375138

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "People seem to be mis-understanding (what I would see anyway) as where this will be used.
1. Off the ball incidents (e.g. Peter Casey incident) where a referee thinks he might need to send a player off.
2. "Last play of the match" e.g. the Limerick line ball v Kilkenny in 2019.

I think anything other than that, forget it.

But I've just thought of an Irish solution. Maybe we need to ask RTE to stop showing replays of these incidents? Keep the referee and the TV viewer on the same page at least......"
The Irish solution was working fine - nothing to see here.
But then Sky came along. And people with working eyes/brains said - it was always obvious.
Then Galician TV ( those ********) made it worse.
I've long suspected that the drop off in devotion to the Virgin Mary would lead to this kind of thing.

timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 27/08/2021 11:56:45    2375188

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Replying To bloodyban:  "Too complicated to have a video ref. You just need to keep it as simple as possible. As other posters have said teams should have 2 or 3 challenges per game. The Captain or manager has a minute to challenge and the onfield ref can come to a pitchside monitor and review. There's no need for the video ref. It would be too complicated and would challenge he the authority of the onfield ref . Keep it simple. It works in NFL."
I agree, we should not be checking square balls because even they are IMPOSSIBLE to properly adjudicate no matter how many replays.
Even steps - sure you win some you lose some.
Keep it simple. How's about the TMO can draw the referees attention to something? Or the referee can ask the TMO has he an angle?
There would be nothing worse than starting to disallow goals over a player taking 5 steps instead of 4

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1737 - 27/08/2021 12:50:13    2375207

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Replying To Soma:  "Mick Cleary, who was one of the best writers on rugby until his recent retirement, began a piece earlier this summer with:
"Marius Jonker - don't take this personally but there are thousands of rugby fans who would be delighted if they were never to hear another word from you. Or any other Television Match Official. If the third test in Cape Town on Saturday is as stop-start constipated as last weekend's bitty, punchy, niggly, TMO-centric match then many of us will reach for the 'Off' button and wonder whatever happened to the more straightforward, honest, get-on-with-it rugby we used to love and engage with, faults and all."
Many rugby fans are absolutely fed up of sitting waiting for the TMO to look at 15 replays of an incident to make a very marginal call. Games that are supposed to last 80 mins are now taking over 120 minutes, it's a shambles."
He's full of you know what. These guys put forward their own opinion and try to add weight to it by saying "people" People watching games on t.v. or in the stadium want to see 80 minutes or 70 minutes of playing in our case and it taking twenty minutes longer don't care. Especially if it was clarifying for them that a red should or should not be issued. A score was a score or not and some of the basic fundamentals that decide a game are correct.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2665 - 27/08/2021 15:12:03    2375234

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "I agree, we should not be checking square balls because even they are IMPOSSIBLE to properly adjudicate no matter how many replays.
Even steps - sure you win some you lose some.
Keep it simple. How's about the TMO can draw the referees attention to something? Or the referee can ask the TMO has he an angle?
There would be nothing worse than starting to disallow goals over a player taking 5 steps instead of 4"
No TMO..I wouldnt want the refs attention being drawn to a voice in his ear from some busy body video ref. The only people that can make a challenge are the teams themselves so they need a guy switched onto the infield incidents. They can then ask to use one of their challenges and then the ref can come and take a look and ask for all angles ect..

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 27/08/2021 15:55:12    2375244

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Replying To bloodyban:  "No TMO..I wouldnt want the refs attention being drawn to a voice in his ear from some busy body video ref. The only people that can make a challenge are the teams themselves so they need a guy switched onto the infield incidents. They can then ask to use one of their challenges and then the ref can come and take a look and ask for all angles ect.."
Why is a video ref a busybody?
Whats wrong with an official with more angles on offer being able to offer assistance

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3512 - 27/08/2021 16:25:43    2375253

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Replying To bloodyban:  "No TMO..I wouldnt want the refs attention being drawn to a voice in his ear from some busy body video ref. The only people that can make a challenge are the teams themselves so they need a guy switched onto the infield incidents. They can then ask to use one of their challenges and then the ref can come and take a look and ask for all angles ect.."
Yeah, but should a team really have to use a challenge to highlight one of their player being hit off the ball for example? Alternatively, it could be that the umpire/linesman brings it to the referees attention that a player was hit off the ball, and then the referee calls for the video ref.
The only play I think which should be included is possible straight red cards and "last play of the match" scenario, e.g. Limerick line ball a few years ago, Louth v Meath goal, etc.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1737 - 27/08/2021 16:29:58    2375254

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "Yeah, but should a team really have to use a challenge to highlight one of their player being hit off the ball for example? Alternatively, it could be that the umpire/linesman brings it to the referees attention that a player was hit off the ball, and then the referee calls for the video ref.
The only play I think which should be included is possible straight red cards and "last play of the match" scenario, e.g. Limerick line ball a few years ago, Louth v Meath goal, etc."
Correct. Honestly these are not difficult things. Can improve officiating and not throw out the baby with the bath water. Honestly you would be crazy to be a ref with what is expected now. Nobody wants the game to be run by replays or stoppages. Our players are amateurs and our type of competitions if a wrong call on a sending off, the effect is too severe a price to pay. You don't have a 60 game schedule to get back playing after the incident. In fact your season might be done. I also believe in the coaches challenge with one improviser to stop it being abused by a coach calling for it because he can while the world and its mother knows he has no case. If his call is unsuccessful award a 65 to the opposition and a potential score. Make him think about the merit of his call making it within a set time. If he is certain he will go ahead and make it. I am sure there will be someone in the stand replaying it on a tablet and talking to him.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2665 - 27/08/2021 19:53:44    2375286

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Why is a video ref a busybody?
Whats wrong with an official with more angles on offer being able to offer assistance"
It'll go like VAR in the premiership. There ll be a video guy onto the ref all the time ...so much goes on off the ball in hurling..we'd have to wait for things to be checked and double checked. No thanks. Just leave it to challenges and let the ref see any angle he wants on that pitchside monitor. If the challenge is upheld then you keep the challenge . If the challenge isn't upheld you lose 1. Basketball do it very well.

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 27/08/2021 21:17:41    2375307

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Replying To Canuck:  "Correct. Honestly these are not difficult things. Can improve officiating and not throw out the baby with the bath water. Honestly you would be crazy to be a ref with what is expected now. Nobody wants the game to be run by replays or stoppages. Our players are amateurs and our type of competitions if a wrong call on a sending off, the effect is too severe a price to pay. You don't have a 60 game schedule to get back playing after the incident. In fact your season might be done. I also believe in the coaches challenge with one improviser to stop it being abused by a coach calling for it because he can while the world and its mother knows he has no case. If his call is unsuccessful award a 65 to the opposition and a potential score. Make him think about the merit of his call making it within a set time. If he is certain he will go ahead and make it. I am sure there will be someone in the stand replaying it on a tablet and talking to him."
Why couldn't he just lose one of his 2 or 3 challenges rather than giving the opposition a 65? That's punishment for no reason. You can be sure if the likes of James Owens got free reign as a video ref then it would be stoppages every 2 or 3 mins. Definately no to a video ref.. I agree totally with the challenge concept and let them challenge anything they want. They only have 2 or 3 challenges per game.. want to waste one on a dodgy sideline 5 mins into the first half go ahead..

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 27/08/2021 21:22:15    2375310

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