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Empires Collapse From Within

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Replying To MesAmis:  "I think you can over analyse the indiscipline, Dublin have played loads of big games down a man (or two even) in the past decade. The difference was they were a better team overall then.

The new players that have come in aren't as good a group as those they are replacing. And the players who are still there aren't playing as well this year as they have in the past."
I think the issue with the discipline last night was a little different in the sense I think the Dublin players knew as the game wore on that the quality wasn't on the bench to rescue them. They were in big trouble long before Mayo even realised.

Those Dublin lads have gotten used to only winning at this level. Naturally they started getting frustrated and that turned into petulance. I think the Paddy Small punch was the perfect example. He had clearly lost the head.

It's not unique to Dublin in any sense. Seen plenty of other teams, mine own included, lash out in frustration when things go badly.

I think the bigger point is all the nonsense that Dublin players were better footballers and a better team partly because they were better people, did more for their communities, worked harder etc. was always rubbish. They were great athletes and great footballers and had a great set up with the best resources and best manager. Other teams trained as hard but simply didn't have the athletes or footballers to compete and most didn't have the quality of coaches or resources.

HighKings (Meath) - Posts: 271 - 15/08/2021 10:23:15    2371369

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Replying To MesAmis:  "I think you can over analyse the indiscipline, Dublin have played loads of big games down a man (or two even) in the past decade. The difference was they were a better team overall then.

The new players that have come in aren't as good a group as those they are replacing. And the players who are still there aren't playing as well this year as they have in the past."
I agree that Dublin clearly aren't as good this year. The first 15 is still very strong, but the bench was clearly much weaker than what you had over the past 8 years.
Dublin have gotten into a habit this year of trying to see out games from a very early stage instead of continuing to drive at their opponent. I do think part of this is because they don't quite have the legs to do what they used to, the support runs became less and less frequent.
They invite pressure on themselves by doing this and it can be very hard to stop the momentum when the opposition gets a run.
One thing which really stood out to me yesterday was the number of basic errors and poor decisions made by Dublin players the from the second half onward. Yes, some were made under pressure, but others were surprising. Passes to lads who weren't looking, some aimless kicks and decisions to foul when there actually no need.
There are things I never associated with Dublin under Gavin.
I want to finish by acknowledging a phenomenal team who've had some of the best players to ever do it. Even in defeat yesterday, Fenton made a couple of brilliant catches from kickouts when Dublin needed it badly.
Despite a lot of the one-sided and begrudging nonsense posted on here, there are a lot of people who actually appreciate excellent football teams.
I'm sure they'll have a hunger next year that might not have been there for some time.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1492 - 15/08/2021 10:31:30    2371375

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Dublin have lost to many good players over the last 12-24 months. It really is that simple. They haven't had the same quality replace them.

Meath and Kildare are still some way off them and that is worrying.

Also I think it needs to be pointed out that no other county in the modern game ever matched Dublin's level during the 6 in a row. Dublin have simply suffered a natural regression. Mayo were the better team by some way last night but it was individual errors like Davy Byrne and Comerford which ultimately cost Dublin. That current mayo team wouldn't beat the Dubs of the last 6 winning years.

Also the like of Fitzsimons, McCarthy, Kilkenny and Cooper have a lot of miles done and it appears to have caught up with them.

daytona11 (Kildare) - Posts: 4006 - 15/08/2021 10:33:16    2371376

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Replying To MesAmis:  "I think you can over analyse the indiscipline, Dublin have played loads of big games down a man (or two even) in the past decade. The difference was they were a better team overall then.

The new players that have come in aren't as good a group as those they are replacing. And the players who are still there aren't playing as well this year as they have in the past."
Cynicism and fouling is part of the game unfortunately in every county. But when a player gets hit at full force by an elbow in the head and ends up in hospital then there's something seriously wrong with the game and with the GAA's attitude to violent play.
Most of the Dublin team are very skilful and play the game fairly but at least three of their players let Dublin down badly yesterday. Calling a hit in the head a tackle, on a player who can't protect himself, is disingenuous and gives the green light to actions that can cause serious injury. James Horan has rightly complained about the incident. However, I don't recall a word out of him re the hit on Galway's top player in this year's Connacht final. Lets call out violent play from all quarters.
There will always be individual players who can't take a beating but the onus is on management to instil a culture of fair play and humility in defeat. It's hard to understand how any player, especially a member of a 6 in-a-row All Ireland winning team, could begrudge a team that hasn't won an All Ireland in 70 years. Very poor sportsmanship to say the least.

baire (Galway) - Posts: 1372 - 15/08/2021 10:40:09    2371378

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The gap was closing and had gathered speed. Commentators last year predicting 10 in a row for Dublin was nonsense. They were a brilliant team. Mayo are a very young team and stuck by their game plan and eventually wore down the Dubs. It was Dublins indiscipline yesterday that helped them loose it. Philly Mc Mahons antics caused the free to be taken again. That sent it into ET. The 2 Smalls dident help with their antics. And No 3 should have walked the line also. Their behaviour and the consequences certainly spurred Mayo on.

border Gael (Monaghan) - Posts: 869 - 15/08/2021 10:40:23    2371379

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Replying To bad.monkey:  "A football team just lost a match (after extra time) forget this 'empire' guff. As always win or lose players will go back to their clubs and for the lucky few can hope to represent their county again next year. There is a nastiness to this thread which is completely against the ideals of the GAA. Time for some to grow up."
Like I said on another thread, people have been waiting since 2014 to unleash all sorts of nastiness when Dublin get beaten. Its to be expected. Especially on forums like this. Thankfully I'm not on twitter but by all accounts it's a dumpster for all sorts of vile crap. Why would you bother like?

Jackeen (Dublin) - Posts: 4093 - 15/08/2021 10:54:36    2371384

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Replying To wexico15:  "9 changes from 2015 final to 2020 so this narrative that it was the same team didn't stack up.

Evan Comerford has the makings of a brilliant keeper but the ice cold composure of Cluxton was missed today and arguably the 1st time the loss of McCaffrey came to roost."
9 changes maybe but any All Ireland winning team have 5 or 6 marque players who ultimately make the difference when it really matters. Your Cluxton's, Brogan, McCaffrey weren't there and then the top top players that are there are older and more miles built up. When the crunch came yesterday like it did at times through the 6 in a row, the players who got them over the line either weren't there or time caught up on them.

The Irish sporting world will talk about Dublin 2015 to 2020 for generations to come, a truly unbelievable team, we should be lucky to have witnessed it. I think it's clear time has caught up on them and they're back into the pack. Of course they'll be there or thereabouts but the domination is over. This thread is unfair on Dublin, yes they lost yesterday but lets not forget the remarkable run they had.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 943 - 15/08/2021 10:57:51    2371387

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it always amazes me how people draw these outlandish conclusions from the results of tight games that frankly could go either way.
Who knows what conclusions people would have drawn if Dean Rock missed that last minute free v Kerry or Mayo , if Cillian O' Connor's last second free had gone over the bar or heaven help us all , if Rob Hennelly's 45 had not been ordered to be re-taken. These are the real stories, the real facts not all this other hyperbole . Last year was probably the biggest gulf between Dublin and Mayo of all the years, this year it was the same as it was during Gavin and Gilroy's time. They got lucky , Dessie Farrell did not. simple as.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5496 - 15/08/2021 10:58:27    2371388

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Replying To baire:  "The thing is though, Mayo have beaten Dublin before in semi-finals so it wasn't a complete surprise. If it were a final, then it would have been the biggest surprise in 70 years! I hope they do it against Kerry, it would be wonderful for Mayo and for Connacht."
I would say it would be great were it not for a good chunk of their fans being completely ungracious in defeat. Personally, I have no gra for Mayo for that reason and for the behaviour of some of their players towards management in the past.

Square_B (Leitrim) - Posts: 397 - 15/08/2021 11:04:23    2371389

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Replying To bad.monkey:  "A football team just lost a match (after extra time) forget this 'empire' guff. As always win or lose players will go back to their clubs and for the lucky few can hope to represent their county again next year. There is a nastiness to this thread which is completely against the ideals of the GAA. Time for some to grow up."
Which ideals - amateurism, equity, respect?

P.Mckenna (Louth) - Posts: 99 - 15/08/2021 11:16:50    2371394

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "This post will age like milk.

Dublin will do a 5 in a row, starting next year.

There is no stopping this juggernaut. Last night was an inevitability, but an exception nonetheless. Not the norm."
If every other county had someone with your mindset in charge, Dublin would win 40 in a row.
Thankfully the Mayo lads have much stronger belief.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1492 - 15/08/2021 11:20:20    2371397

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Replying To daytona11:  "Dublin have lost to many good players over the last 12-24 months. It really is that simple. They haven't had the same quality replace them.

Meath and Kildare are still some way off them and that is worrying.

Also I think it needs to be pointed out that no other county in the modern game ever matched Dublin's level during the 6 in a row. Dublin have simply suffered a natural regression. Mayo were the better team by some way last night but it was individual errors like Davy Byrne and Comerford which ultimately cost Dublin. That current mayo team wouldn't beat the Dubs of the last 6 winning years.

Also the like of Fitzsimons, McCarthy, Kilkenny and Cooper have a lot of miles done and it appears to have caught up with them."
This isn't about Dublin regression. Mayo have been there or there abouts for a number of years. Dublin have shown flat performances before. Yesterday's game reminded me of 2016, wet day, low scoring, Mayo held Dublin scoreless for 30 minutes that day. The difference is yesterday they managed to get themselves over the line.

97Cavans (Cavan) - Posts: 233 - 15/08/2021 11:47:48    2371415

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Meath & Kildare were 'competitive' v Dublin this year. It was odds on that Mayo would be right there with them, but the loss of Mullen seemed likely to be significant.

The worry for Mayo is the reality that Dublin 2021 were dead men walking, while Kerry are young, and mad for road, by comparison. The directness of the Kerry attack alone will be a challenge for Mayo, presenting such a marked contrast to Dublin's rather remarkable 'to-ing & fro-ing offence' of 2021.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 2695 - 15/08/2021 11:55:45    2371418

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "Meath & Kildare were 'competitive' v Dublin this year. It was odds on that Mayo would be right there with them, but the loss of Mullen seemed likely to be significant.

The worry for Mayo is the reality that Dublin 2021 were dead men walking, while Kerry are young, and mad for road, by comparison. The directness of the Kerry attack alone will be a challenge for Mayo, presenting such a marked contrast to Dublin's rather remarkable 'to-ing & fro-ing offence' of 2021."
Kerry were shocking against a poor Cork team last year when it mattered most...the Cork team who would go on to lose to Tipp who then got put to the sword by Mayo in the semis within 30 minutes..

This Kerry team looked great in the last two covid plagued league campaigns full of injuries and teams in transition... Look at all the Div 1 teams this year.. Dublin included.. all way off their best missing key players and blooding new young players.

How will P Clifford do under the bright lights for the first time?

How will D Clifford do with the immense pressure and expectation?

How will that shake Kerry back line fare?

How will this whole Kerry team fare having walked through Munster straight into the final?

The notions around here that Kerry are on a different level at the moment are hilarious, based on what? These last two league campaigns? When it really mattered in champo last year they were miles off it.

nicko94 (Mayo) - Posts: 53 - 15/08/2021 12:36:04    2371447

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "Meath & Kildare were 'competitive' v Dublin this year. It was odds on that Mayo would be right there with them, but the loss of Mullen seemed likely to be significant.

The worry for Mayo is the reality that Dublin 2021 were dead men walking, while Kerry are young, and mad for road, by comparison. The directness of the Kerry attack alone will be a challenge for Mayo, presenting such a marked contrast to Dublin's rather remarkable 'to-ing & fro-ing offence' of 2021."
dont forget though that David Clifford only scored 1 point (from a free) against Cork.
so he is not exactly coming in in unstoppable form. His brother , Gavin White, Briain O' Beaglach, Paul Murphy, Sean O' Sé and David Moran are the form players. even Paul Geaney not firingnon all cylinders of late.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5496 - 15/08/2021 12:47:39    2371456

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Replying To HighKings:  "I think the issue with the discipline last night was a little different in the sense I think the Dublin players knew as the game wore on that the quality wasn't on the bench to rescue them. They were in big trouble long before Mayo even realised.

Those Dublin lads have gotten used to only winning at this level. Naturally they started getting frustrated and that turned into petulance. I think the Paddy Small punch was the perfect example. He had clearly lost the head.

It's not unique to Dublin in any sense. Seen plenty of other teams, mine own included, lash out in frustration when things go badly.

I think the bigger point is all the nonsense that Dublin players were better footballers and a better team partly because they were better people, did more for their communities, worked harder etc. was always rubbish. They were great athletes and great footballers and had a great set up with the best resources and best manager. Other teams trained as hard but simply didn't have the athletes or footballers to compete and most didn't have the quality of coaches or resources."
To be honest I could give you plenty of examples of similar incidents to yesterday in games Dublin have won though. When you win it's put down to 'gamesmanship' or cynical play or just getting the job done etc etc. When you lose its petulance.

I think Paddy Small encapsulates Dublin's regression in another way to be honest. I like Paddy and he's a good footballer but at his absolute best he doesn't get off the bench for Dublin 2013-2019.

The other guff is just what gets written often about championship teams. I heard an interview with Liam Hayes recently where he was bemoaning the current Meath players about his generation wanted to beat Dublin more etc etc. But its nonsense.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13493 - 15/08/2021 12:51:24    2371459

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "If every other county had someone with your mindset in charge, Dublin would win 40 in a row.
Thankfully the Mayo lads have much stronger belief."
We will see.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 575 - 15/08/2021 13:19:20    2371482

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Replying To nicko94:  "Kerry were shocking against a poor Cork team last year when it mattered most...the Cork team who would go on to lose to Tipp who then got put to the sword by Mayo in the semis within 30 minutes..

This Kerry team looked great in the last two covid plagued league campaigns full of injuries and teams in transition... Look at all the Div 1 teams this year.. Dublin included.. all way off their best missing key players and blooding new young players.

How will P Clifford do under the bright lights for the first time?

How will D Clifford do with the immense pressure and expectation?

How will that shake Kerry back line fare?

How will this whole Kerry team fare having walked through Munster straight into the final?

The notions around here that Kerry are on a different level at the moment are hilarious, based on what? These last two league campaigns? When it really mattered in champo last year they were miles off it."
I think people's favoritism of Kerry is based on their performances against Dublin in 2019.

Both performances would have had Dublin beaten out the gate yesterday.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13493 - 15/08/2021 13:24:01    2371485

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I am surprised how Dublin's run came to an end. It's normally harder to get over the line when you are facing a great team as even if their standard drops normally they have the experience/ know how to make the right decisions and often stay in games when playing bad. Dublin in the second half and extra time played like a rabble. It was amazing how this can happen to a team who were on the greatest run of success ever seen in the GAA. I have to say I was delighted to see that Dublin playing this horribly boring keep ball worked against them yesterday, the 45 Mayo got was silly Dublin hand passing around their own goal.
Maybe I'm wrong but from memory I think Dublin under Jim Gavin Dublin played with much more purpose, under Farrell they have morphed into way overplaying this boring lateral handpassing. Under Gavin Dublin, style wise, were the best team to watch. Under Farrell they slowing down of the game with boring handpassing has made them maybe the worst team to watch. But it has also made them much less effective.
I'd say Covid didn't help Dublin either. In recent years, because of the backroom team they can put in place Dublin have looked by far the best prepared team, 2 years of Covid disruptions lessened this advantage a lot. If next year is a normal non Covid year Dublin will be a good bit better.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1060 - 15/08/2021 13:42:47    2371495

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Where are all the little minds now? Those who proclaimed vociferously from the rooftops that football was dead. That the big, bad, blue machine had killed it! Oh, where are they, indeed?

I hope they feel as silly today as they have sounded over the past 3-4 years. It's a good job that most others didn't adopt that attitude, or the Dubs would do 10-in-a-row, as these doomsdayers predicted. It's healthy for the game that Dublin have been beaten, and a nice positive side-effect is that it might shut up these whinge-merchants once and for all.

Suddenly, there'll be nothing at all wrong now with football in places like An Riocht and An Mhi from this day out. It is suddenly Lazarus-like after coming back to life.

The Dubs didn't kill Gaelic football you fools. They made it. See the level of intensity at which Mayo played at, and won, yesterday. Well, they had to get up to that level to down Dublin. Hopefully Mayo complete the job now. It'd be a shame after killing the monster that neither Kerry or Tyrone could ever get near over the last decade, if Mayo now left it after them for either of these two counties to pick up. Over the past 6-7 years, Gaelic football has reached an unprecedented level of skill, athleticism, and intelligence. This fine Dublin team has played a huge part in that.

And when they fell on the sword, it was most fitting that the sword was in the hand of their greatest challenger during their reign of supremacy.

Long live the King. The King is dead!

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1270 - 15/08/2021 14:44:19    2371522

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