National Forum

Decouple Provincial Champ In Football From All Ireland

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Hurling has been a closed shop and always will be. Why are Kerry deliberately excluded from the Munster championship? Their only hope of playing in the Liam McCarthy is to play in Leinster."
They are not excluded. Under the round robin system they will join Munster not Leinster. The current set up is a mess but only temporary.

Kerry are welcome to try apply to change the system and I don't know a single Munster fan who would be against them joining. Part of the opposition comes from within Kerry because they know getting bate 20+ points every year in Munster was and is no good for Kerry hurling

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 13/07/2021 11:42:06    2359325

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Anything I suggest is working off the GAA's new assigned window of February to July for intercounty activity.

Depending on whether you want to start in February or not there's around 21-25 weeks free for intercounty.

I think any suggestions then have to be around 16 to a very hard max of 19 games for teams to be able to be played and provide adequate breaks.

The 4 divisions of 8 plus provincials plus All Ireland quarterfinals get you up to 14 max weeks.

There's a little expansion possible for the leagues, not much though.

3 tiers of 11/11/10 could work. 2 up 2 down plus a playoff between 3rd in the lower division v 9th in the higher division. 12/10/10 could be fine too. I don't think you can add too much more though."
I missed the new calendar with what I was saying - though I guess it brings April into play so we're still left with 6 months to play the championship. That's a lot of time to play a lot of games.

I agree that there is a need for rest weekends in there and would agree that the max # games would be around 19 / 20 for the All Ireland winners.

The current proposal the GAA have put up for consideration using the league as an entrance to the All Ireland has 2 -4 almost friendly provincial games; with 7 league games and the knockout All Ireland & Tailteann cup meaning most teams will play less games than they play now.

I want to see more games - not less. There is room for another 3/4 games for everyone. You know I'm a fan of the Swiss system that would allow for 2 tiers of whatever size you like. But I'd agree that 3 tiers with 11/11/10 would work better that the GAA proposal - then feed in the provincial winners and let the top tier be the top tier.

I also believe the Tailteann cup will fail if it becomes a losers competition as both the GAA proposals have now. A place in the top tier for winning it should be enough of a prize.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 13/07/2021 12:09:37    2359344

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Replying To Breezy:  "They are not excluded. Under the round robin system they will join Munster not Leinster. The current set up is a mess but only temporary.

Kerry are welcome to try apply to change the system and I don't know a single Munster fan who would be against them joining. Part of the opposition comes from within Kerry because they know getting bate 20+ points every year in Munster was and is no good for Kerry hurling"
If its possible for Offaly to get relegated as far as the Christy Ring cup - surely that should be possible for Limerick too?

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 13/07/2021 12:20:33    2359353

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Replying To brianb:  "If its possible for Offaly to get relegated as far as the Christy Ring cup - surely that should be possible for Limerick too?"
Again it is possible under the proper hurling system just not this pandemic compromise one.

I think if Kerry win Joe they should join Munster as a 6th team and Munster can have relegation just like Leinster has this year. Not a hope in hell any Munster team will lose to them though and that's not cause of Limerick or Leinster or anything other than reality

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 13/07/2021 12:30:20    2359358

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Replying To Breezy:  "They are not excluded. Under the round robin system they will join Munster not Leinster. The current set up is a mess but only temporary.

Kerry are welcome to try apply to change the system and I don't know a single Munster fan who would be against them joining. Part of the opposition comes from within Kerry because they know getting bate 20+ points every year in Munster was and is no good for Kerry hurling"
Thanks for that Breezy. If Kerry win the Joe McDonagh do they play in the Munster championship. If so is anyone relegated out of Munster? Antrim are gone out of Leinster and the Liam McCarthy for next season.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 13/07/2021 13:04:40    2359367

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Thanks for that Breezy. If Kerry win the Joe McDonagh do they play in the Munster championship. If so is anyone relegated out of Munster? Antrim are gone out of Leinster and the Liam McCarthy for next season."
Kerry will be in Leinster if they win Joe,

Which will be a bit absurd. Counties from every province in it then potentially.

I can see the point regarding them getting their **** handed to them by Munster teams, but once again (as with Westies and Antrim) a Leinster county will lose out.

Upside is, Dublin get to beat them twice in the championship maybe...... okay, i'll get me coat.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2556 - 13/07/2021 13:18:43    2359374

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Thanks for that Breezy. If Kerry win the Joe McDonagh do they play in the Munster championship. If so is anyone relegated out of Munster? Antrim are gone out of Leinster and the Liam McCarthy for next season."
From next year yes Kerry would play in Munster if promoted and before you go crying the usual poor little Leinster tears don't forget that it was agreed that Leinster would have an extra team over Munster to protect Leinster teams from relegation.

Fifty place in Munster does not get relegated this year and neither does fifth in Leinster

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 13/07/2021 13:27:24    2359381

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Replying To Breezy:  "From next year yes Kerry would play in Munster if promoted and before you go crying the usual poor little Leinster tears don't forget that it was agreed that Leinster would have an extra team over Munster to protect Leinster teams from relegation.

Fifty place in Munster does not get relegated this year and neither does fifth in Leinster"
No tears here. You could also say last place in Leinster gets relegated and last place in Munster doesn't. Depends on what way you see it.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 13/07/2021 14:44:53    2359426

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Replying To Breezy:  "From next year yes Kerry would play in Munster if promoted and before you go crying the usual poor little Leinster tears don't forget that it was agreed that Leinster would have an extra team over Munster to protect Leinster teams from relegation.

Fifty place in Munster does not get relegated this year and neither does fifth in Leinster"
So should Kerry win the Joe McDonagh cup they'll play in Munster next year with the 6th place Munster team being relegated whoever they might be?

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 13/07/2021 15:28:23    2359441

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Replying To brianb:  "So should Kerry win the Joe McDonagh cup they'll play in Munster next year with the 6th place Munster team being relegated whoever they might be?"
That's not the plan as far as I am aware but it would be my preferred choice and I hope Kerry ask for it. Under current round robin rules Kerry have to play in a promotion match but that was decided before Leinster got 6 teams

I heard a good proposal on here before where the 6 team group would change over and back depending on who gets promoted

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 13/07/2021 15:50:36    2359453

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Replying To Breezy:  "They are not excluded. Under the round robin system they will join Munster not Leinster. The current set up is a mess but only temporary.

Kerry are welcome to try apply to change the system and I don't know a single Munster fan who would be against them joining. Part of the opposition comes from within Kerry because they know getting bate 20+ points every year in Munster was and is no good for Kerry hurling"
And you think after seeing what happened Laois this year, it would be different in Leinster?
They might win a game somewhere but they will get bad hammerings from most.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 13/07/2021 16:50:17    2359473

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "And you think after seeing what happened Laois this year, it would be different in Leinster?
They might win a game somewhere but they will get bad hammerings from most."
When did I ever say anything like that ?

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 13/07/2021 19:34:13    2359512

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Replying To brianb:  "I missed the new calendar with what I was saying - though I guess it brings April into play so we're still left with 6 months to play the championship. That's a lot of time to play a lot of games.

I agree that there is a need for rest weekends in there and would agree that the max # games would be around 19 / 20 for the All Ireland winners.

The current proposal the GAA have put up for consideration using the league as an entrance to the All Ireland has 2 -4 almost friendly provincial games; with 7 league games and the knockout All Ireland & Tailteann cup meaning most teams will play less games than they play now.

I want to see more games - not less. There is room for another 3/4 games for everyone. You know I'm a fan of the Swiss system that would allow for 2 tiers of whatever size you like. But I'd agree that 3 tiers with 11/11/10 would work better that the GAA proposal - then feed in the provincial winners and let the top tier be the top tier.

I also believe the Tailteann cup will fail if it becomes a losers competition as both the GAA proposals have now. A place in the top tier for winning it should be enough of a prize."
We agree on a lot here.

I even agree that there's a lot of advantages to a "Swiss system" format design wise. I just don't think that it'd be well received by the average fan.

I don't like most of ideas around the second tier competition either. I don't really think it's likely to have prestige in and of itself which is what they seem to be banking on. In the league based proposal there is promotion awarded for winning the Tailteann cup. I don't think that's a great solution either and the wider proposal is very badly thought out.

I also agree that to get rid of the Provincials or decouple them from the championship is a risky move and a lot of the proponents of this aren't really giving great arguments behind why they want to do so.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4223 - 14/07/2021 05:29:42    2359636

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Replying To Whammo86:  "We agree on a lot here.

I even agree that there's a lot of advantages to a "Swiss system" format design wise. I just don't think that it'd be well received by the average fan.

I don't like most of ideas around the second tier competition either. I don't really think it's likely to have prestige in and of itself which is what they seem to be banking on. In the league based proposal there is promotion awarded for winning the Tailteann cup. I don't think that's a great solution either and the wider proposal is very badly thought out.

I also agree that to get rid of the Provincials or decouple them from the championship is a risky move and a lot of the proponents of this aren't really giving great arguments behind why they want to do so."
I think the Fixtures Review with regard to championship reform was a waste. Two poor proposals. There are tried and tested formats such as that used by the LGFA (4 tier League and 3 tier championship).

The League format has Division 3 and 4 teams leapfrogging teams competing at a higher level. We had it in the League and it was eventually scrapped.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 14/07/2021 13:49:27    2359774

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "I think the Fixtures Review with regard to championship reform was a waste. Two poor proposals. There are tried and tested formats such as that used by the LGFA (4 tier League and 3 tier championship).

The League format has Division 3 and 4 teams leapfrogging teams competing at a higher level. We had it in the League and it was eventually scrapped."
I absolutely despise the leap frogging approach of granting lower tier teams a place in the latter stages.

It'd diminish a huge part of what makes the league so good as is, that there's the reward of promotion for a good campaign and risk of relegation.

I don't really feel like the LGFA solutions are all that applicable to men's football, they have their own set of challenges to solve for. What works for them is certainly not a foolproof plan for us.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4223 - 14/07/2021 14:04:02    2359780

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Think the league format this year was very purposeful in terms of structure to test the waters of how an early season tiered restructured championship might go.

How cool would it be to have Galway, Dublin, Kerry and Roscommon/Mayo in a four group regional qualifying round like the league this year, home and away fixtures - be class.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 14/07/2021 14:22:49    2359797

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "I think the Fixtures Review with regard to championship reform was a waste. Two poor proposals. There are tried and tested formats such as that used by the LGFA (4 tier League and 3 tier championship).

The League format has Division 3 and 4 teams leapfrogging teams competing at a higher level. We had it in the League and it was eventually scrapped."
I agree. Two poor proposals.

The proposal where some counties are moved to a different province keeps the existing inequalities in the All Ireland series but does give every team at least 3 championship matches.

The proposal to use the league as a base for the All Ireland has inequality built into it as well as making the Tailteann cup more of a losers competition. If you're going to use the league as a basis for the championship surely the league format should be up for discussion as well.

Of the 3 proposals A, B and the Status Quo - Both have some merit but I don't want to see the Provincial Championships diluted as a pre-season competition and similarly I don't really want to see a Longford V Mayo Connaught final. I think I just about still prefer the Status Quo.

I'd favour some hybrid model where the provincial champions continue to be guaranteed a knock out spot along with a league based system where the top teams play each other for the remaining knock out spots and promotion / relegation into the lower tier. It can all be done - unfortunately the fixtures review committee seemed to shut an eye to match the hands already tied behind their back.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 14/07/2021 14:25:43    2359799

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I absolutely despise the leap frogging approach of granting lower tier teams a place in the latter stages.

It'd diminish a huge part of what makes the league so good as is, that there's the reward of promotion for a good campaign and risk of relegation.

I don't really feel like the LGFA solutions are all that applicable to men's football, they have their own set of challenges to solve for. What works for them is certainly not a foolproof plan for us."
LGFA or hurling. Doesn't really matter. Football needs a tiered championship.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 14/07/2021 14:37:05    2359804

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Replying To brianb:  "I agree. Two poor proposals.

The proposal where some counties are moved to a different province keeps the existing inequalities in the All Ireland series but does give every team at least 3 championship matches.

The proposal to use the league as a base for the All Ireland has inequality built into it as well as making the Tailteann cup more of a losers competition. If you're going to use the league as a basis for the championship surely the league format should be up for discussion as well.

Of the 3 proposals A, B and the Status Quo - Both have some merit but I don't want to see the Provincial Championships diluted as a pre-season competition and similarly I don't really want to see a Longford V Mayo Connaught final. I think I just about still prefer the Status Quo.

I'd favour some hybrid model where the provincial champions continue to be guaranteed a knock out spot along with a league based system where the top teams play each other for the remaining knock out spots and promotion / relegation into the lower tier. It can all be done - unfortunately the fixtures review committee seemed to shut an eye to match the hands already tied behind their back."
Only proposal which comes close is Jim McGuinness' one which has top 11 in the League + 4 provincial champions and Tier 2 champions qualifying for All-Ireland QFs.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 14/07/2021 15:07:01    2359827

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Think the league format this year was very purposeful in terms of structure to test the waters of how an early season tiered restructured championship might go.

How cool would it be to have Galway, Dublin, Kerry and Roscommon/Mayo in a four group regional qualifying round like the league this year, home and away fixtures - be class."
I've mentioned 16 teams split into 2 groups of 8. North/South one year, East/West the following year. You keep your local rivalries, you have teams playing more at their level and playing more meaningful matches.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4223 - 14/07/2021 16:16:46    2359852

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