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No Back Door In Football...Fair?

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Replying To Bon:  "I'll never for the life of me understand football's reluctance with tiered competitions. Where's the enjoyment from getting hammered in the current set up?
There's been some super scenes in Croke Park the last number of years in the tiered hurling competitions."
100% agree. No point being in a competition that you either have no chance in winning or being regulated. These lower tier games should be played before the semi finals and all Ireland finals to give them even more exposure also.

ecad123 (Galway) - Posts: 232 - 07/07/2021 15:06:11    2357412

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Why wouldn't they have won those titles? Backdoor kicks in after the Provincials, if anything teams were more incentivised than usual to win their province."
I understand your post and it makes sense, I got caught up in it with my last post, my own thoughts are the back door creates a safety net and a different mind-set that favours the stronger counties, it also gives them a chance to regroup in the event of an upset, they get another chance to give the lesser counties a bigger hammering, the knock out system is a once off where anything can happen giving no second chance to anyone.

The extra game or two that the weaker counties get from playing the back door system does not solve the problem it's simply papering over the cracks. My guess is that there is about 11 counties in trouble and simply making up the numbers, another 2 or possibly 3 counties simply fulfilling fixtures, up to about 5 more are no more than competitive full stop, so that makes it about 20 of our 31 ( Not including Kilkenny) counties simply making up the numbers, simply not good enough.

There is a few alternatives to the current system, going down the back door route seems to be the easiest and most profitable way to go, sadly.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2608 - 07/07/2021 15:15:19    2357418

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the Tailteann was supposed to be in force this year. i think it is being played next year so that so be an improvement. it should appease those that say there is no point in letting the weaker teams compete in the qualifiers. the all-ireland has been won via the back door on a few occasions so that proves that stronger teams can avail of it.
on the other hand there is a hell of a lot more excitement with a straight knockout and the clubs get their players back much quicker.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5496 - 07/07/2021 15:44:39    2357428

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Replying To supersub15:  "I understand your post and it makes sense, I got caught up in it with my last post, my own thoughts are the back door creates a safety net and a different mind-set that favours the stronger counties, it also gives them a chance to regroup in the event of an upset, they get another chance to give the lesser counties a bigger hammering, the knock out system is a once off where anything can happen giving no second chance to anyone.

The extra game or two that the weaker counties get from playing the back door system does not solve the problem it's simply papering over the cracks. My guess is that there is about 11 counties in trouble and simply making up the numbers, another 2 or possibly 3 counties simply fulfilling fixtures, up to about 5 more are no more than competitive full stop, so that makes it about 20 of our 31 ( Not including Kilkenny) counties simply making up the numbers, simply not good enough.

There is a few alternatives to the current system, going down the back door route seems to be the easiest and most profitable way to go, sadly."
I agree with a lot of this post. I don't think the back door is the answer either, it's just hard to keep the provincials as part of the main competition and make an exciting meaningful fair All Ireland. I'm unsure what they can do to fix it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 07/07/2021 21:02:59    2357526

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Replying To ecad123:  "100% agree. No point being in a competition that you either have no chance in winning or being regulated. These lower tier games should be played before the semi finals and all Ireland finals to give them even more exposure also."
Where is the enjoyment playing in a competition that you havnt even got a hope in hell of even getting to a provincial final, never mind an All-Ireland? It would be like all soccer teams in the UK just training for the FA Cup.
Have a Senior, Intermediate and Junior All Ireland Championship with promotion/relegation where it gives each county a chance for a day in the sun. The current set up is crazy for weaker counties.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1687 - 07/07/2021 22:03:26    2357534

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The back door only gives the likes of Kerry and Dublin a second bite of the cherry. Last year was great-Knockout. Cork did for Kerry and that was that. That's how championship football should operate!

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1270 - 07/07/2021 22:26:49    2357537

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Replying To Bon:  "Where is the enjoyment playing in a competition that you havnt even got a hope in hell of even getting to a provincial final, never mind an All-Ireland? It would be like all soccer teams in the UK just training for the FA Cup.
Have a Senior, Intermediate and Junior All Ireland Championship with promotion/relegation where it gives each county a chance for a day in the sun. The current set up is crazy for weaker counties."
But apparently that doesn't matter for some reason. We keep hearing about how the weaker counties are entitled to have a chance to win the All-ireland. Despite the fact some of them have gone decades without even getting to a provisional final let alone win an All-ireland!

The other line that's used is they don't train to play in a second teir but apparently will to get hammered and knocked out after two games.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 985 - 07/07/2021 22:38:05    2357539

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Replying To Bon:  "Where is the enjoyment playing in a competition that you havnt even got a hope in hell of even getting to a provincial final, never mind an All-Ireland? It would be like all soccer teams in the UK just training for the FA Cup.
Have a Senior, Intermediate and Junior All Ireland Championship with promotion/relegation where it gives each county a chance for a day in the sun. The current set up is crazy for weaker counties."
In fairness most of them soccer teams in England haven't a hope in hell of winning anything either.
If Stoke City even win a league Cup in the next 20 years it'll be good going.
I can't offhand think of any tournament in any sport where every participant can realistically hope to win it.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1263 - 07/07/2021 22:51:28    2357543

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Replying To Bon:  "Where is the enjoyment playing in a competition that you havnt even got a hope in hell of even getting to a provincial final, never mind an All-Ireland? It would be like all soccer teams in the UK just training for the FA Cup.
Have a Senior, Intermediate and Junior All Ireland Championship with promotion/relegation where it gives each county a chance for a day in the sun. The current set up is crazy for weaker counties."
I have always thought this is the way to go. Some of the senior county teams would not be competitive with the senior clubs in the top counties. Winning breeds winning and playing on big days would before top games would be a lift.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2207 - 07/07/2021 22:51:44    2357544

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I agree with a lot of this post. I don't think the back door is the answer either, it's just hard to keep the provincials as part of the main competition and make an exciting meaningful fair All Ireland. I'm unsure what they can do to fix it."
Be careful what you wish for. What competitions would mean as much to the weaker counties as winning Ulster and Munster did to Cavan and Tipp last year?

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5796 - 08/07/2021 00:24:26    2357563

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Replying To Bon:  "Where is the enjoyment playing in a competition that you havnt even got a hope in hell of even getting to a provincial final, never mind an All-Ireland? It would be like all soccer teams in the UK just training for the FA Cup.
Have a Senior, Intermediate and Junior All Ireland Championship with promotion/relegation where it gives each county a chance for a day in the sun. The current set up is crazy for weaker counties."
Not a lover of Junior/intermediate level at club level, I hurled myself and while not strong enough for Senior, Senior B was an option and training was good and competitive and you had to learn fast. Ultimately our county board done away with Senior B and brought in intermediate and Junior, and to cut a long story short I ended upd junior, with lads who had no commitment, little interest, and a drinking session if we won or lost. I stayed as long as we were left training with the seniors but ultimately we were pushed into our own training slot and the above crew, not all but some, seemed to by unavailable for training but very available for matches...whats new..I gave it a year and was working and family comitments, and called it a day, a day I regret to this day, but back then fairness wasnt a thing...I am involved in management with another sport now, and regardless of who you are or how good you are, unless you train regular you dont get to play...we havent won many cups or anything but we have zero fall off almost, we are still underage, so its easy to apply so far (6 years involved now)..interestingly the few who have dropped out are mainly GAA parents and from what I could see our sport was only keeping them ticking over for the winter anyway...infairness lots of Gaa players are stil with us, but the parents wouldnt be as hard line GAA as those who opted out after a few year...

The intermediate and junior thing would be interesting in intercounty...you play at your level then and get promoted and relegated etc...interesting angle on it I must say...

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 928 - 08/07/2021 01:17:35    2357567

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Replying To Bon:  "I'll never for the life of me understand football's reluctance with tiered competitions. Where's the enjoyment from getting hammered in the current set up?
There's been some super scenes in Croke Park the last number of years in the tiered hurling competitions."
Unfortunately, the reluctance comes from the fact that the counties who are getting hammered year after year still want to participate in the "top tier" and they have no interest in a "B championship" or Joe McDonagh cup equivalent. It is ridiculous, but every proposal for tiered competitions has been met with utter contempt from the counties that would actually benefit the most. In 1991, Clare won the all-Ireland B championship and this proved to be the springboard for their shock Munster final win against Kerry the following year. They then pushed Dublin all the way in the all-Ireland semi-final. You would think that this would inspire other counties to take the B championship seriously but the opposite was the case. In the 1992 B championship (played after the "A" championship so everyone involved had already witnessed Clare's stunning progress), most counties showed little or no interest and some did not even bother fielding a team. The competition was abandoned after that and nobody really seemed to care or notice. Attitudes do not seem to have changed much since.

Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 947 - 08/07/2021 05:17:04    2357570

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "What is the point in giving those teams mentioned above ( and more to come ) another thrashing… I'd say most if not all their players are glad to be finished with it… Also a total waste of already stretched county board finances….!!"
Will you say the same when Tyrone hammer cavan, I suspect not.

Royal.Legend (Meath) - Posts: 577 - 08/07/2021 08:45:04    2357578

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Replying To Galway9801:  "In fairness most of them soccer teams in England haven't a hope in hell of winning anything either.
If Stoke City even win a league Cup in the next 20 years it'll be good going.
I can't offhand think of any tournament in any sport where every participant can realistically hope to win it."
The NFL in America is a great tournament and is run very fairly on a draft system, so the worst team any year gets the first pick of the best young up and coming players from the colleges, it means you could be bottom of the bucket this year but in a few years if your team is managed right you could be fighting for the big prize it means you'll never have a team dominate for long.

It's an excellent sport with great characters, check out Jason Pierre-Paul if you get a chance he's an outside line backer with the Tampa Bay buccaneers the won the super bowl in January and he's missing 2 fingers on 1 of his hands after a fireworks accident.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 08/07/2021 09:19:41    2357584

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "I don't think its fair. Most who know my posts know I do advocate for return to old knockout championship from time to time but I watched Sligo, Waterford, Carlow, Clare and Wicklow among others knocked out and gone last week and more gone this weekend...does the football championship have to be played off so quickly???..I think its very harsh considering hurling has a second chance...it should be the same for both games whatever is in place.."
Difference being the realistic tiers in hurling, hence the space for 2nd chances.....Armagh hammered Antrim yet Antrim manager was in paper moaning about a possible tier 2 ...deluded instead of facing reality

ArmaghCat (Armagh) - Posts: 86 - 08/07/2021 09:31:23    2357588

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Replying To Galway9801:  "In fairness most of them soccer teams in England haven't a hope in hell of winning anything either.
If Stoke City even win a league Cup in the next 20 years it'll be good going.
I can't offhand think of any tournament in any sport where every participant can realistically hope to win it."
That's what I mean, like imagine the teams in England didn't concentrate on their respective leagues where they are mainly at their own level, and solely on the FA cup. That's the way the football championship is.
I'm sure a lot of people would prefer one junior/intermediate medal during there career than hacking away at senior for 10/15 years with absolutely nothing to show for it.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1687 - 08/07/2021 09:55:23    2357596

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Replying To ArmaghCat:  "Difference being the realistic tiers in hurling, hence the space for 2nd chances.....Armagh hammered Antrim yet Antrim manager was in paper moaning about a possible tier 2 ...deluded instead of facing reality"
Hard enough getting counties to agree to a second tier nevermind a third tier.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 595 - 08/07/2021 10:14:07    2357600

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Replying To Gaillimh_Abu:  "Unfortunately, the reluctance comes from the fact that the counties who are getting hammered year after year still want to participate in the "top tier" and they have no interest in a "B championship" or Joe McDonagh cup equivalent. It is ridiculous, but every proposal for tiered competitions has been met with utter contempt from the counties that would actually benefit the most. In 1991, Clare won the all-Ireland B championship and this proved to be the springboard for their shock Munster final win against Kerry the following year. They then pushed Dublin all the way in the all-Ireland semi-final. You would think that this would inspire other counties to take the B championship seriously but the opposite was the case. In the 1992 B championship (played after the "A" championship so everyone involved had already witnessed Clare's stunning progress), most counties showed little or no interest and some did not even bother fielding a team. The competition was abandoned after that and nobody really seemed to care or notice. Attitudes do not seem to have changed much since."
Surely the answer is staring us all in the face
Start the championship with Div 4 Teams playing first
Then move on to Div 3 those who loose go into second Tier Comp
The teams who win go in Champ till they loose and go into 2nd Tier
At least they all get a chance to start out in The Championship

rhudson (Galway) - Posts: 1450 - 08/07/2021 10:33:25    2357607

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Replying To Galway9801:  "In fairness most of them soccer teams in England haven't a hope in hell of winning anything either.
If Stoke City even win a league Cup in the next 20 years it'll be good going.
I can't offhand think of any tournament in any sport where every participant can realistically hope to win it."
Would you rather play for Stoke city and earn up to 50 grand a week or play the likes of Carlow, making all the huge sacrifices and knowing deep down that the likelihood of winning anything meaningful are virtually zero.

If you are a good young player for the likes of Stoke City, the door is open for you to end up being bought by one of the big clubs and going on to win major honours.

In soccer good players have always the chance of winning something, that's not the case in the GAA and in my opinion that's simply wrong.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 08/07/2021 11:19:43    2357623

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Replying To rhudson:  "Surely the answer is staring us all in the face
Start the championship with Div 4 Teams playing first
Then move on to Div 3 those who loose go into second Tier Comp
The teams who win go in Champ till they loose and go into 2nd Tier
At least they all get a chance to start out in The Championship"
Well you can be certain they will lose, so is there any point in even spending any time in a competition and then reverting back to where you should have been from day one ?

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 08/07/2021 12:08:55    2357636

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