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Replying To Whammo86: "Exact same thing was said about hurling before the provincial groups came in.
There is a difference between groups of 8 and groups of 4. Teams get more games, the games aren't dead rubbers because the competition is designed in a way that pretty much every placing means something.
When you divide the field in to 4 you can have the 2 best teams on the same side of the draw.
The 2 groups of 8 will absolutely have the 2 best performing teams reaching the final because 1st and 2nd in each group are kept apart until the final and the top of each group are kept apart until the final." As I said, replacing the current league format with a championship with2 groups of 8 won't happen. The 2nd tier will have a load of dead rubbers.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 05/07/2021 14:35:31
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Replying To centerfield: "Decouple provincials from All Ireland is the way to go. Make provincials the early season comp and play championship on a league/championship basis.
With qualifiers to knockout from each division.More from D1 than the others. Also have relegation/promotion playoffs" I really don't like lower division teams getting into the playoffs.
Takes away much of the hazard of relegation.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 05/07/2021 14:38:05
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Replying To Rolo2010: "As I said, replacing the current league format with a championship with2 groups of 8 won't happen. The 2nd tier will have a load of dead rubbers." The second tier is the main problem, I agree. It's why I'd have 4 from each qualifying. I don't think there'd be a lot of dead rubbers but there would be a bit.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 05/07/2021 15:28:02
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Replying To Whammo86: "I don't like it because I'd rather a more intense league, where there's something at stake in the games between the top teams." That Uls group would be like the current Muns hurling Champp (sufficiently tense, I think).
With Uls and Lein having more than 5 teams in the top 18, maybe the groups could be Uls 1, Uls 2/Div 4 All Stars, combined Muns/Lein/Div 3 All Stars and combined Conn/Lein.
Top 3 in each group to AI Last 12 - Highest Uls and Lein team only in the Uls and Lein groups to Prov Finals (2 Champs to AI QFs, 2 losers to QF Playoff Rd) - Highest 2 Muns and Conn teams in the Muns and Conn groups to Prov Finals (2 Champs to AI QFs, 2 losers to QF Playoff Rd).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 05/07/2021 18:13:19
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Connacht/Munster - 6 A teams (Mayo,Kerry,Galway,Cork,Clare,Roscommon),
6xB teams (Tipp,Limerick,Waterford,Sligo,Leitrim,London)
Ulster/Leinster - 6 A teams (Armagh,Tyrone,Donegal,Kildare,Dublin,Monaghan)
6 team group B1 (Derry,Offaly,Down,Fermanagh ,Meath,Westmeath)
8 Team group B2
(Wexford,Louth,Antrim,Laois,Carlow,Cavan,Wicklow,Longford)
All teams play group rivals once at neutral venue
1. A Groups
Top teams in each province play prov final - selected by finishing position in group (say Galway,Mayo,Kildare,Dublin,Donegal,Tyrone,Clare, Kerry)
Prov winners qualifying for last 8 (Mayo,Dublin,Tyrone,Kerry)
Losing Prov finalist (Galway,Donegal,Clare,Kildare) qualify for 2nd Rd of play offs
Remaining teams in each A group who don't qualify for provincial final (Armagh, Roscommon, Monaghan, Cork) play off - losers (Monaghan,Cork) get relegated -winners (Armagh,Roscommon) progress to all Ireland Q finals
2. B Groups
Top 2 of Leinster/Ulster 1B (Meath,Derry) play Winners of Connacht/Munster B (Limerick) and Winners of Leinster/Ulster 2B (Wicklow) - in All Ireland B championship before finalists (Meath Derry) enter A championship 1st Round play offs
3 All Ireland A championship
All Ireland B finalist (Meath,Derry) play lowest ranked prov Runners Up (say Clare,Kildare) - 1st round playoffs
Best Ranked provincial winners (say Kerry,Dublin) play 1st rd play off winners in All Ireland Q finals
Other prov winners (Mayo,Tyrone) play relegation play off winners (Armagh,Roscommon)
All Ireland winner plays 9 matches
The worst A team having a bad season plays 7 matches
The best B teams play 7 matches minimum
The worst B team plays 7 matches in Leinster/Ulster or 5 in Connacht/Munster
Sounds really complicated but is actually simple on a diagram - also gives all teams lots of matches against teams of same standard
Can add in an All Ireland C championship (let's call it the Soft All Ireland) for bottom 4 in in Leinster/Ulster 2B and bottom 4 in Connacht/Munster B
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1105 - 06/07/2021 04:34:33
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "Connacht/Munster - 6 A teams (Mayo,Kerry,Galway,Cork,Clare,Roscommon),
6xB teams (Tipp,Limerick,Waterford,Sligo,Leitrim,London)
Ulster/Leinster - 6 A teams (Armagh,Tyrone,Donegal,Kildare,Dublin,Monaghan)
6 team group B1 (Derry,Offaly,Down,Fermanagh ,Meath,Westmeath)
8 Team group B2
(Wexford,Louth,Antrim,Laois,Carlow,Cavan,Wicklow,Longford)
All teams play group rivals once at neutral venue
1. A Groups
Top teams in each province play prov final - selected by finishing position in group (say Galway,Mayo,Kildare,Dublin,Donegal,Tyrone,Clare, Kerry)
Prov winners qualifying for last 8 (Mayo,Dublin,Tyrone,Kerry)
Losing Prov finalist (Galway,Donegal,Clare,Kildare) qualify for 2nd Rd of play offs
Remaining teams in each A group who don't qualify for provincial final (Armagh, Roscommon, Monaghan, Cork) play off - losers (Monaghan,Cork) get relegated -winners (Armagh,Roscommon) progress to all Ireland Q finals
2. B Groups
Top 2 of Leinster/Ulster 1B (Meath,Derry) play Winners of Connacht/Munster B (Limerick) and Winners of Leinster/Ulster 2B (Wicklow) - in All Ireland B championship before finalists (Meath Derry) enter A championship 1st Round play offs
3 All Ireland A championship
All Ireland B finalist (Meath,Derry) play lowest ranked prov Runners Up (say Clare,Kildare) - 1st round playoffs
Best Ranked provincial winners (say Kerry,Dublin) play 1st rd play off winners in All Ireland Q finals
Other prov winners (Mayo,Tyrone) play relegation play off winners (Armagh,Roscommon)
All Ireland winner plays 9 matches
The worst A team having a bad season plays 7 matches
The best B teams play 7 matches minimum
The worst B team plays 7 matches in Leinster/Ulster or 5 in Connacht/Munster
Sounds really complicated but is actually simple on a diagram - also gives all teams lots of matches against teams of same standard
Can add in an All Ireland C championship (let's call it the Soft All Ireland) for bottom 4 in in Leinster/Ulster 2B and bottom 4 in Connacht/Munster B" So, Dubs v Kildare Lein Final because they are the only 2 Lein A teams and qualify by finishing last ?
Nah - I'd reconfigure based on a National Summer League Championship -
Div 1 - 2 equal rank groups of 6 - A & B (5 games) plus 1 crossover 'same place' game (6 total) to determine Champ, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th & 11th league place.
Div 2 - 2 equal rank groups of 6 - (6 games, same format as Div 1).
Div 3 - 2 equal groups of 4 - North & South double round robin (7 games, with 1 'same place' crossover).
Top 3, 2 & 1 from Div 1, 2 & 3 groups to AI KO Rd of 16 (12 teams) and 4 Prov KO Champs (4 teams) played separately.
One up / One down from each group (4 up / 4 down total). Teams 3rd to 5th switch groups within Divs 1 & 2 for fixture variety in the next league campaign.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 07/07/2021 05:09:50
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Could they do something along the lines of
NFL 3 divisions of 12, 10 and 10 in single round robins.
2 up 2 down.
Championship 3 tiers of 12, 10, 10 split into 2 groups in each.
6 to playoffs in each with group winners getting byes to the semifinals.
Champion promoted.
Bottom in senior championship and intermediate championships playing off to avoid relegation.
You're talking 13-16 fixtures, then another 3 knockout rounds.
Division 1 would need to start in February but division 2 and 3 could wait until March.
2 teams would start with a chance at Sam.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 09/07/2021 15:33:54
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There is a lot of discussions about changing to different formats for the football championship. I'd wonder do we know what we want.
1) At the start of every year should every county have a notional chance at winning Sam?
2) Do we want to keep the provincial championships?
3) Do we want more meaningful games between the top teams and teams at all levels?
4) At what stage do we want full knock out football to start?
5) Do we want a second tier competition?
6) If we have a second tier competition do we want it played on the All Ireland weekend?
7) If there is a second tier competition should there be promotion / relegation between tiers?
For me the answer is yes to all the above with knockout games from the 1/4 finals on.
On another thread I suggested how this would be possible by adapting the Swiss system that will be used for the Champions League Soccer from next year. Fair to say there wasn't a lot of enthusiasm for that Idea but it would allow all the above to be completed.
I'd like to know what you think on these questions as most solutions compromise on one or more of these.
As a side note - for the proposed provincial round robins where moving counties to a different province is considered - I don't see how this would be preferable to using the Swiss system in each province.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 09/07/2021 16:42:12
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Replying To brianb: "There is a lot of discussions about changing to different formats for the football championship. I'd wonder do we know what we want.
1) At the start of every year should every county have a notional chance at winning Sam?
2) Do we want to keep the provincial championships?
3) Do we want more meaningful games between the top teams and teams at all levels?
4) At what stage do we want full knock out football to start?
5) Do we want a second tier competition?
6) If we have a second tier competition do we want it played on the All Ireland weekend?
7) If there is a second tier competition should there be promotion / relegation between tiers?
For me the answer is yes to all the above with knockout games from the 1/4 finals on.
On another thread I suggested how this would be possible by adapting the Swiss system that will be used for the Champions League Soccer from next year. Fair to say there wasn't a lot of enthusiasm for that Idea but it would allow all the above to be completed.
I'd like to know what you think on these questions as most solutions compromise on one or more of these.
As a side note - for the proposed provincial round robins where moving counties to a different province is considered - I don't see how this would be preferable to using the Swiss system in each province." What is your argument for keeping Provincial Championships ?
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 09/07/2021 18:15:55
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Replying To brianb: "There is a lot of discussions about changing to different formats for the football championship. I'd wonder do we know what we want.
1) At the start of every year should every county have a notional chance at winning Sam?
2) Do we want to keep the provincial championships?
3) Do we want more meaningful games between the top teams and teams at all levels?
4) At what stage do we want full knock out football to start?
5) Do we want a second tier competition?
6) If we have a second tier competition do we want it played on the All Ireland weekend?
7) If there is a second tier competition should there be promotion / relegation between tiers?
For me the answer is yes to all the above with knockout games from the 1/4 finals on.
On another thread I suggested how this would be possible by adapting the Swiss system that will be used for the Champions League Soccer from next year. Fair to say there wasn't a lot of enthusiasm for that Idea but it would allow all the above to be completed.
I'd like to know what you think on these questions as most solutions compromise on one or more of these.
As a side note - for the proposed provincial round robins where moving counties to a different province is considered - I don't see how this would be preferable to using the Swiss system in each province." Good post
I think there are other important questions.
Should the National League remain as is?
Should the league be incorporated into the championship?
If we retain the Provincials do they have to be linked to the championship.
Can Provincials be played early in the season?
Is competitive integrity important?
Some of these are the most important questions.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 09/07/2021 19:03:38
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Replying To brianb: "There is a lot of discussions about changing to different formats for the football championship. I'd wonder do we know what we want.
1) At the start of every year should every county have a notional chance at winning Sam?
2) Do we want to keep the provincial championships?
3) Do we want more meaningful games between the top teams and teams at all levels?
4) At what stage do we want full knock out football to start?
5) Do we want a second tier competition?
6) If we have a second tier competition do we want it played on the All Ireland weekend?
7) If there is a second tier competition should there be promotion / relegation between tiers?
For me the answer is yes to all the above with knockout games from the 1/4 finals on.
On another thread I suggested how this would be possible by adapting the Swiss system that will be used for the Champions League Soccer from next year. Fair to say there wasn't a lot of enthusiasm for that Idea but it would allow all the above to be completed.
I'd like to know what you think on these questions as most solutions compromise on one or more of these.
As a side note - for the proposed provincial round robins where moving counties to a different province is considered - I don't see how this would be preferable to using the Swiss system in each province." 1 other thing, I don't think there should be this halfway house of moving teams between provinces. They should either stay as is or they should not be a part of the new championship. It's not just that there are uneven numbers that causes the problem, there's very uneven quality wise too and that's probably more important to balance for fairness purposes.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 09/07/2021 21:04:16
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My responses are YYY, 16 KO teams, YY (Sat) Y.
Yes, I like the Swiss system as well - it's very flexible in accommodating a regular season of any desired length.
I would like a combined league championship - with a 10-match Tier 1 Top 16 and Tier 2 Lower 16.
For fixtures, I'd split each 16 into 3 groups, A, B & C.
A could have seeds, 1, 2, 3, 15 & 16;
C could have 4, 5, 12, 13 & 14; and
B could have 6 to 11.
B (10 games) v A & C and
A & C (complete 10 games) including separate round robins.
Tier 1 Top 8 of 16 (re-seeded 1 to 8) to Aussie AFL style playoffs, with Tier 2 Top 8 of 16 competing in similar but separate Tier 2 playoffs.
4 Up (Tier 2 Last 4) / 4 Down (Tier 1 13th to 16th).
Prov Championships played separately in pre season, but limited to Top 4 SFs & Final in each Prov based on prior year's NFL placing (4 Champs guaranteed Tier 1 status for the following year, with additional Tier 1 playoff berths in the current year (if outside the Tier 1 Top 8 and in lieu of potential Tier 2 Top 8 playoff berths).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 10/07/2021 05:53:33
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Replying To Whammo86: "Could they do something along the lines of
NFL 3 divisions of 12, 10 and 10 in single round robins.
2 up 2 down.
Championship 3 tiers of 12, 10, 10 split into 2 groups in each.
6 to playoffs in each with group winners getting byes to the semifinals.
Champion promoted.
Bottom in senior championship and intermediate championships playing off to avoid relegation.
You're talking 13-16 fixtures, then another 3 knockout rounds.
Division 1 would need to start in February but division 2 and 3 could wait until March.
2 teams would start with a chance at Sam." I like that.
AIC Tiers and NFL Divs could operate independently as well.
However, I would like any county to play a season max 16 matches - e.g. my other post = Prov KO 2 games, NFL 10 and AIC Playoffs 4.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 10/07/2021 06:07:48
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Or, combined League Championship with 2 tiers of 16, split into 2 initial groups of 8 in each.
After initial 7 group games, each top 4 merges with other group top 4 in the same Tier, carrying forward 3 results against teams already played and then playing the other 4 teams.
Top 4 of 8 (counting 3+4 of 7+4 games) to respective Tier AIC SFs.
Separately, the Bottom 4s merge with similar 7 of 11 results counting in the final merged tables - with bottom 4 of 8 (Tier 1 only) entering 2 relegation finals, and higher 4 of 8 (Tier 2 only) contesting the AIC Shield SFs.
2 Up (Tier 2 Finalists) / 2 Down (Tier 1 Relegation Losing Finalists).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 10/07/2021 06:49:44
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A 2 tier system should be simply imposed on counties at this stage as if it goes to a vote the weaker counties will always vote against it…. For some strange reason their county boards love to see their team get a trashing every year… The old chestnut of players having no interest in a second tier event just doesn't wash… they are not forced to represent their counties and genuine ones would be honoured to play for their county regardless of the competition… At the end of each league campaign Div 1/2 play in the 'A' Championship and Div 3/4 complete in the 'B' Championship…..Simple.. At the end of the day the same 2/3 teams will be competing for the All Ireland regardless of what system but at least the weaker counties would have a better chance of avoiding an embarrassing hammering and have something more tangible to aim for….
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1904 - 10/07/2021 08:35:44
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A 2 tier system should be simply imposed on counties at this stage as if it goes to a vote the weaker counties will always vote against it…. For some strange reason their county boards love to see their team get a trashing every year… The old chestnut of players having no interest in a second tier event just doesn't wash… they are not forced to represent their counties and genuine ones would be honoured to play for their county regardless of the competition… At the end of each league campaign Div 1/2 play in the 'A' Championship and Div 3/4 complete in the 'B' Championship…..Simple.. At the end of the day the same 2/3 teams will be competing for the All Ireland regardless of what system but at least the weaker counties would have a better chance of avoiding an embarrassing hammering and have something more tangible to aim for….
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1904 - 10/07/2021 08:42:55
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Replying To omahant: "I like that.
AIC Tiers and NFL Divs could operate independently as well.
However, I would like any county to play a season max 16 matches - e.g. my other post = Prov KO 2 games, NFL 10 and AIC Playoffs 4." I'd have them linked rather than being independent.
It has more teams in the running at the start of the season.
It elevates NFL division 2 as the entry to the senior championship.
It elevates the Junior championship because the winner of that will be in the NFL division 2 and be in the hunt for the following season's Sam.
I think it gives meaningful competition for teams practically the whole way through the season.
Coming up with a way of making the bottom tier not have too many dead rubbers is tricky. 2 groups of 5 with 3 qualifiers is as about as good as it'll get without making the group phase lack intensity.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 10/07/2021 10:52:47
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So, 2 up / 2 down after NFL, but 1 up / 1 down after Champp - what is rationale ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 10/07/2021 15:06:15
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Replying To omahant: "So, 2 up / 2 down after NFL, but 1 up / 1 down after Champp - what is rationale ?" In the championship there's fewer games for teams to keep themselves up and also to make the final of the championships more do or die.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 10/07/2021 15:20:14
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Decouple the provincial from the championship.
Get rid of the league.
Provincials in spring.
Play championship on divisional basis.
Trophy for winning your division.
Div1. 6 qualifiers to knockout. Top 4 directly into QFs.
Div 2. 2 Qualfiers to knockout.
Div 3. 2 Qualifiers to knockout.
Div 4. 2 Qualifiers to knockout.
Div 1 position 5 and 6 and Div 2 qualifiers.
play top 2 in div 3 and 4. to fill remaining 4 QF places.
Use seeding based on position. 2 up 2 down relegation.
Above keeps provincials. Allows weaker team to win something meaningful. Path for every team to win sam if good enough.
centerfield (Mayo) - Posts: 360 - 11/07/2021 09:25:58
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