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Rose Tinted Glasses.

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While the actual football and hurling in the past wasn't what it is now I think what people look back as being better was the unpredictability of the games.

There were lots of mistakes but that played it's part in the excitement people had. One mistake could change a game. Nowadays mistakes are all but gone from the game and with it the unpredictability.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1633 - 23/06/2021 17:42:30    2352914

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Replying To brianb:  "I totally agree. The team more effective in converting their chances win the game. Like basketball there are a myriad of ways of playing this game. Full Court Press / Defence First / Fast Break; do you go zonal / man on man.

For me football was best in the 90's & 00's in terms of competitiveness but in terms of skill its got nothing on today. It is a much better game now with the extra athleticism and tactical nous needed to play the game. The problem is that there aren't that many teams able to be in contention at the highest level making the top level games too predictable.

Hurling though - I think the game is becoming unwatchable as a neutral spectator. To stick with the basketball analogy its the equivalent of hitting 3 pointers reliably from the half way line where the act of scoring for Team A frees up the man to take the next shot for Team B."
Great points especially on the hurling Brian.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3918 - 23/06/2021 18:18:20    2352920

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Replying To AfricanGael:  "You have nailed your colours to the mast of robotic football being here to stay as it's a winning strategy, that's fine I accept your point of view.

I can't argue that it's not a winning strategy and if it continues to be that for the years to come I'll be the first to come back to you and say, you were right Whammo86, I got it wrong, my attack minded "off the cuff" philosophy is wrong, likewise I would hope you will do the same, if my philosophy of the how to smash the robotic football is correct.

I accept teams must play to their strengths and you do need the forwards especially to pull it off, but unfortunately every county bar Dublin has to wait for a generation of players to come along.

The most frustrating part for me is we have a few teams who like to rank themselves 2 to 6 or whatever, who have the talent but are not using it correctly.

If you're not winning by playing defensive football, what the hell are you continuing to persist with it for ?

The ironic thing about blanket defensive systems is that defenders are actually losing the art of defending.

So what is very likely to happen is that when a team built on a blanket defensive system starts to adapt they will take several bad beatings in the process.

Time will tell."
I was interpreting "robotic" football as the keep possession, high number of hand passes style of play.

I think the extreme blanket is all but dead as a serious strategy for a team with aspirations of challenging for the All Ireland. Rubbish teams will use it to keep the scores respectable and it'll be used by lower level mentors as a quick fix easily implementable game plan for limited managers. Tyrone 2017 is the end of it for a top level team.

Zonal defensive systems are going to remain. Again they just make sense. The aim of tactics are to get more out of your players than the sum of their parts. Zonal marking is intended to do that and is also used as a way of dominating the opposition. To rigidly man mark your opponent means that they are dictating your defensive structure and can manoeuvre your players around to create gaps. Zonal defence makes a team less exploitable and in most team sports is seen as a higher order level of play. Gaelic supporters are weird in their insistence on man to man being a truer form of the sport.

Zonal marking is here to stay but zonal marking can be executed within an attacking or defensive structure. Zonal marking can provide more security to allow greater freedom to attacking players.

The game is definitely more attacking post 2017 than it was in the 2012 to 2017 period.

I think the next big thing in the game is to improve the pressing to win possession back, if teams get better at squeezing as a unit to win possession back then maybe the risk reward dynamic changes around playing more directly.

Time will tell how it goes. I think it's unlikely though that the pressing will get to a high enough level to make teams play more directly again. Retaining possession is pretty easy in football compared to games like soccer or hurling.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4526 - 23/06/2021 18:30:57    2352922

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I was interpreting "robotic" football as the keep possession, high number of hand passes style of play.

I think the extreme blanket is all but dead as a serious strategy for a team with aspirations of challenging for the All Ireland. Rubbish teams will use it to keep the scores respectable and it'll be used by lower level mentors as a quick fix easily implementable game plan for limited managers. Tyrone 2017 is the end of it for a top level team.

Zonal defensive systems are going to remain. Again they just make sense. The aim of tactics are to get more out of your players than the sum of their parts. Zonal marking is intended to do that and is also used as a way of dominating the opposition. To rigidly man mark your opponent means that they are dictating your defensive structure and can manoeuvre your players around to create gaps. Zonal defence makes a team less exploitable and in most team sports is seen as a higher order level of play. Gaelic supporters are weird in their insistence on man to man being a truer form of the sport.

Zonal marking is here to stay but zonal marking can be executed within an attacking or defensive structure. Zonal marking can provide more security to allow greater freedom to attacking players.

The game is definitely more attacking post 2017 than it was in the 2012 to 2017 period.

I think the next big thing in the game is to improve the pressing to win possession back, if teams get better at squeezing as a unit to win possession back then maybe the risk reward dynamic changes around playing more directly.

Time will tell how it goes. I think it's unlikely though that the pressing will get to a high enough level to make teams play more directly again. Retaining possession is pretty easy in football compared to games like soccer or hurling."
A combination of man marking and zonal defence also works Whammo. It's fluid. Good man markers are a valuable asset. Vinny Corey was brilliant at it.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6178 - 23/06/2021 18:49:32    2352925

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Replying To Greengrass:  "A combination of man marking and zonal defence also works Whammo. It's fluid. Good man markers are a valuable asset. Vinny Corey was brilliant at it."
Of course. You definitely need man marking at times. You just can't leave men free in the scoring zone. A good unit will need to be able to have individuals with good decision making to know when they need to pass on a player to retain shape or have players aware enough to fill gaps. The best teams will do this with the minimum number of players.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4526 - 23/06/2021 19:11:09    2352931

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Replying To ConnollyDub:  "Totally agree with the opening post.

But you don't even have to go as far back as the 70s.

I watched the 2006 Dublin V Mayo semi final only a few weeks ago. Dubbed one of the best games of the decade.

Truly awful stuff. Hoofing the ball. Stray passes left right and center. Horrible shooting. Bad wide after bad wide. Honestly if you watched that game today you would say it was an awful standard of football.

So we definitely have the rose tinted glasses on.

The standard of the recent Dublin Kerry finals of 2019 was exceptional really. And no one can tell me they were boring. No one. Regardless of who you were up for."
Compared to today's standard possibly yes but for excitement and drama it is still right up there as one of the best games. The neutrals and general public want to be entertained and unfortunately Dublin coasting through most games and winning the All Ireland every year has people bored and wanting a new winner.

I think this riles Dublin fans but it's no fault of Dublin they have been so far ahead of most teams. Greatest team ever that they are. While you can marvel and appreciate Dublins play, movement and skill....People don't like watching games that are over after 15-20mins.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11565 - 23/06/2021 19:16:13    2352933

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I was interpreting "robotic" football as the keep possession, high number of hand passes style of play.

I think the extreme blanket is all but dead as a serious strategy for a team with aspirations of challenging for the All Ireland. Rubbish teams will use it to keep the scores respectable and it'll be used by lower level mentors as a quick fix easily implementable game plan for limited managers. Tyrone 2017 is the end of it for a top level team.

Zonal defensive systems are going to remain. Again they just make sense. The aim of tactics are to get more out of your players than the sum of their parts. Zonal marking is intended to do that and is also used as a way of dominating the opposition. To rigidly man mark your opponent means that they are dictating your defensive structure and can manoeuvre your players around to create gaps. Zonal defence makes a team less exploitable and in most team sports is seen as a higher order level of play. Gaelic supporters are weird in their insistence on man to man being a truer form of the sport.

Zonal marking is here to stay but zonal marking can be executed within an attacking or defensive structure. Zonal marking can provide more security to allow greater freedom to attacking players.

The game is definitely more attacking post 2017 than it was in the 2012 to 2017 period.

I think the next big thing in the game is to improve the pressing to win possession back, if teams get better at squeezing as a unit to win possession back then maybe the risk reward dynamic changes around playing more directly.

Time will tell how it goes. I think it's unlikely though that the pressing will get to a high enough level to make teams play more directly again. Retaining possession is pretty easy in football compared to games like soccer or hurling."
I have no problem with zonal marking at all and that's why I emphasized "providing you have the forwards especially" but as I said there's a distinct lack of top class defenders in the game at the moment.

And while that's the case, that's why you are more heavily dependent on having six good forwards.

If a team wants to try a heavy press at the moment against Dublin when they have 11 or 12 men in their own half, which is often the case that's when you'll need to be sure you have top class defenders as you'll end up with a 4 on 4 or even a 3 on 3 very quickly depending how heavy the press is because to beat the press most teams will just fire in long balls to beat it.

A team using a press as a tactic would be absolutely wasting energy unless its a full press.

A game with both teams playing such a style would be a step backwards I believe.

If Gaelic football turns into a zero skill possession game then kids may as well all start playing soccer, improve the national team and get some pride back into the country.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 23/06/2021 20:38:52    2352946

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Compared to today's standard possibly yes but for excitement and drama it is still right up there as one of the best games. The neutrals and general public want to be entertained and unfortunately Dublin coasting through most games and winning the All Ireland every year has people bored and wanting a new winner.

I think this riles Dublin fans but it's no fault of Dublin they have been so far ahead of most teams. Greatest team ever that they are. While you can marvel and appreciate Dublins play, movement and skill....People don't like watching games that are over after 15-20mins."
I know we gave ye 2 hammerings in the finals in 04 and 06 U3 but at least we didn't patronise ye like dublin do to teams, dublin go 6 points up at the start of the second half and just keep the ball away from what ever team they're playing making the team feel happy that they aren't getting hammered like the leinster teams.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 23/06/2021 21:15:24    2352951

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Replying To oneoff:  "While the actual football and hurling in the past wasn't what it is now I think what people look back as being better was the unpredictability of the games.

There were lots of mistakes but that played it's part in the excitement people had. One mistake could change a game. Nowadays mistakes are all but gone from the game and with it the unpredictability."
Not sure about that in general. Yes the 90s were a breath of fresh air in both codes but if you look back at the winners over history its largely the same old names.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15762 - 23/06/2021 22:02:30    2352962

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "I know we gave ye 2 hammerings in the finals in 04 and 06 U3 but at least we didn't patronise ye like dublin do to teams, dublin go 6 points up at the start of the second half and just keep the ball away from what ever team they're playing making the team feel happy that they aren't getting hammered like the leinster teams."
Go away with your anti Dublin nonsense

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2842 - 23/06/2021 22:31:38    2352969

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "I know we gave ye 2 hammerings in the finals in 04 and 06 U3 but at least we didn't patronise ye like dublin do to teams, dublin go 6 points up at the start of the second half and just keep the ball away from what ever team they're playing making the team feel happy that they aren't getting hammered like the leinster teams."
That going 6 points up and keeping the ball away from whatever team they're playing sounds like a crazy idea if you want to win a football match. The giving the ball to the team their playing, when they're 6 points up, sounds like a much better plan indeed. Those bad auld nasty patronising Dublin footballers.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7981 - 23/06/2021 23:52:27    2352977

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "That going 6 points up and keeping the ball away from whatever team they're playing sounds like a crazy idea if you want to win a football match. The giving the ball to the team their playing, when they're 6 points up, sounds like a much better plan indeed. Those bad auld nasty patronising Dublin footballers."
Lol ........

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2842 - 24/06/2021 09:44:54    2353006

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "That going 6 points up and keeping the ball away from whatever team they're playing sounds like a crazy idea if you want to win a football match. The giving the ball to the team their playing, when they're 6 points up, sounds like a much better plan indeed. Those bad auld nasty patronising Dublin footballers."
It's a good idea but renders the game unwatchable, similar to watching a basketball match without hoops at either end.
We will conceivably see periods of 20/25 minutes of teams passing the ball amongst one another once they develop a lead, if this tactic catches on.

Sure there's always soccer and rugby I guess....

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1942 - 24/06/2021 10:36:04    2353015

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Does anyone even listen to KingdomBoy anymore?

I mean we are all guilty of having our judgement clouded by bias, but his/her judgement is clouded by bitterness.

Seriously it cant be just us Dubs that notice this... its plain for all to see!!! The obsession is incredible

ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 2007 - 24/06/2021 10:44:53    2353016

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90's were great with so many different winners, I'll never forget '92, some great battles in Leinster Dublin v Meath, then you had the 00's, Tyrone Armagh Kerry some great games, I don't think football is near as good now, it's too methodical, the forward mark and palmed in goals I cannot stand, also the refereeing is as bad as ever, and fellas are diving now and buying frees, wasn't much of that on show in the 90's.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 3188 - 24/06/2021 10:51:29    2353019

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Replying To Galway9801:  "It's a good idea but renders the game unwatchable, similar to watching a basketball match without hoops at either end.
We will conceivably see periods of 20/25 minutes of teams passing the ball amongst one another once they develop a lead, if this tactic catches on.

Sure there's always soccer and rugby I guess...."
It surely not great to watch but it's effective. Crude but effective.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7981 - 24/06/2021 10:59:33    2353029

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Replying To ConnollyDub:  "Does anyone even listen to KingdomBoy anymore?

I mean we are all guilty of having our judgement clouded by bias, but his/her judgement is clouded by bitterness.

Seriously it cant be just us Dubs that notice this... its plain for all to see!!! The obsession is incredible"
Seeing as you're commenting on his/her posts you obviously do

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1633 - 24/06/2021 11:13:17    2353034

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "That going 6 points up and keeping the ball away from whatever team they're playing sounds like a crazy idea if you want to win a football match. The giving the ball to the team their playing, when they're 6 points up, sounds like a much better plan indeed. Those bad auld nasty patronising Dublin footballers."
Oh it's great for the dubs nó doubt but it's a travesty for the game it's self and gives the team that's 6 points down a feeling of comfort that they're not getting hammered but in reality they are being hammered and really they won't have touched the ball a whole pile in the last 20 mins.

If we're going to play bask8ball/football then we need to bring in the shot clock.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 24/06/2021 11:16:32    2353036

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Rose tinted glasses for sure. Back then , you were a true amateur player, probably on a mucky pitch and a good chance you'd get creamed if caught in possession, why wouldn't you hoof it anywhere...

Of course todays games are of a higher standard because they are basically professional. The games are gone to stage where the rules facilitate and protect the team in possession. Therefore for me the entertainment and enjoyment value is not near what it was. (Same goes for soccer, F1etc)

If you think about it from a spectator point of view in what makes entertainment in a game. Unpredictable, sudden changes in a game, dispossessions, breaks up the field etc.. These are disappearing at a rate from our game. Someone mentioned earlier there are no great defenders in the game any more, for me its because we give the onus to the team in possession. Quite often a second player in, a second hand in and even a shoulder results in a free to the person in possession. We wont even talk about the 4 step rule, because it means penalizing the team in possession

If we want better entertainment we need to allow dispossession, turn overs etc on a bigger scale

ponger (Cavan) - Posts: 555 - 24/06/2021 11:25:56    2353039

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I think people miss the unpredictability of the championship and the games. The levels of individual skills, fitness levels etc is higher now than it was back in the 90s and yes there are few mistakes but it has led to a type of game that most people finding boring. I've been to intercounty matches where the atmosphere among the supporters is very subdued. Another thing that seems to have gone from the game is rivalry. Rivalry between counties guaranteed that there would be a bit of needle at various stages during contests but with the introduction of black, yellow and red cards, a player can be dismissed for relatively minor offences now. Dublin are a great team, arguable the greatest team in the history of the GAA but the fact that they are winning leinster and the all Irelands every year is having a detrimental effect on the game particularly in leinster. Sitting here now, people can safely say that Dublin will win Leinster and Kerry will win Munster; they will have learned their lesson from last year. The other two provinces offer some form of competitive championship with Galway, Mayo and Roscommon in Connaught and Donegal, Tyrone, Monaghan and maybe Armagh in Ulster. Just for a comparison, in the leinster championship in the 90s; Offaly, Meath, Kildare and Dublin won the Leinster championship. In the 00s, Laois, Westmeath, Kildare, Dublin and Meath won titles. What people would give to see that level of competitiveness returned to the province today.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 2102 - 24/06/2021 11:51:21    2353044

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