National Forum

2021 Hurling Championship

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Tim O'Mahony about 4" taller than Cian. If you look at a slow mo of it you can see both of O'Mahony's arms around Cian's neck. Cian has one hand on his Hurley. I assume he was initially trying to get O'Mahonys hold free with his other hand. For Cian to throw him over his back, as he did, O'Mahony had to be leaning in on top of him also. So if O'Mahony didn't want to be thrown he simply had to let go of Lynch's neck. What Lynch did wasn't right but what O'Mahony did is also technically a red card. (Wrapping both arms around Lynch's neck). So in order not to destroy an All Ireland Final, Fergal Horgan made the correct decision with two yellows.

Mulcahy's reaction was not nice. Very unlike him and I have a feeling it's part of the reason he was taken off. JK is a man of great integrity and would not stand for anything premeditated like that. I'm sure Mulcahy regrets it now.

Seeking_silver (Limerick) - Posts: 411 - 26/08/2021 08:39:58    2374840

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "These boys have three All Ireland Medals in their **** pockets, and they might even find room for one or two more. I am sure they are worried about damaging their reputations in the same way Kilkenny were worrying about theirs, when they were sweeping all before them, while playing on the edge. As your own iconic Manager said 'Winners are winners and losers make excuses'. In passing, in the last four years I cant recall a single case in which an opposition player had a bone broken inflicted on him by a Limerick player. I would also add that John Doyle once said that 'winning is not the most important thing; its the only thing'. Basically, as Viking rightly points out, a team without a 'bit of cutting' is at nothing."
Well I don't mean to drag up old dirt, but Limerick complained for a whole generation about the first puck-out of the 96 All-Ireland. I went to college with lads who like me were in nappies at the time, but had been brought up on a healthy diet of anti-Wexford bitterness over it!
Apparently it cost Limerick the match.....no other reason!
'Winners are winners and losers make excuses' - a truer word was never spoken.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1825 - 26/08/2021 09:34:36    2374849

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Replying To ballydalane:  ""the naked eye at times believes that it's seeing a throw"

But if the naked eye can't identify a "clear striking action", then it's not a clear striking action. That's the whole point.

"I didn't throw it ref, it's just my handpass is so quick you just thought it was a throw. I'm a magician like that....""
Yerra don't be perturbing yourself too much about it at all. It's just one tiny aspect of the overall game. Your Kilkenny will come back again. Your county won't be down for too long more, so in the meantime, don't be putting yourself under pressure overthinking the little issue of how the hand-pass is executed.

The game moved on very quickly during the past 4 years, and the evolution in the hand-pass is one such development, a positive one, in that forward surge. We can't be going back to the days when a fellow would throw up the sliothar and expect to have all day to effect a 'clear striking action'. The game is just gone far too fast for that carry on anymore.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 2202 - 26/08/2021 09:50:34    2374859

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Replying To daveboy:  "Good post. People on here fail to grasp context but that's fine. They can post what they like and let it drive them mad. It's clearly lads that never played the game.

This limerick team in time will be regarded as the best that ever set foot in croke park. Skill, physicality, team work, work ethic, honesty, humility, mental acuity. And all from a county outside the golden circle. The circle has been breached and it should guve great hope to the likes of Wexford Waterford Dublin Galway and Clare what can be achieved in 5-10 years with the correct structure, county board and volunteers at the core of it all driving standards all under the umbrella of the common goal from u13 to senior."
Yes we were inspired by our Clare neighbours, Galway and Offaly etc when Limerick were down and I feel this will work the same way.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4490 - 26/08/2021 09:53:12    2374860

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "DJ was indeed great with the handpass, both left and right. Of course, he was a fine hand-baller, too back then. That helped. But DJ is retired the bones of 20 years now. The game does move on.

But back then, that type of handpass, you'd get away with. The fellas today are way too fast for that. If a modern player left the ball in the air as long as DJ used to, it'd be snapped, turned over, and back down the field for a point against Kilkenny.

In the modern game, it's just a slight nudge up, and then the quickest flick of the wrist and open palm to get the ball away. It's gone so advanced since DJ's time that the naked eye at times believes that it's seeing a throw. But the ball isn't thrown at all. Look, it's like watching a magician, you believe you see something but what you see isn't what you see at all.

It contributes significantly to a faster, more skillful game. Everything now is done at such speed."
I don't agree that throwing the ball contributes significantly to a more skillful game. The opposite is the case surely. The lack of commentary on RTE & in the general media about the volume of thrown 'handpasses' in championship 2021 is astonishing. Situations where 'what you see isn't what you see at all' will inevitably present challenges for referees, and probably need to be eradicated from the game, where possible. And it's possible with 'handpass throws'. Refs need to blow them up, award frees, and they'll eradicate them.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4124 - 26/08/2021 09:56:41    2374861

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "Yerra don't be perturbing yourself too much about it at all. It's just one tiny aspect of the overall game. Your Kilkenny will come back again. Your county won't be down for too long more, so in the meantime, don't be putting yourself under pressure overthinking the little issue of how the hand-pass is executed.

The game moved on very quickly during the past 4 years, and the evolution in the hand-pass is one such development, a positive one, in that forward surge. We can't be going back to the days when a fellow would throw up the sliothar and expect to have all day to effect a 'clear striking action'. The game is just gone far too fast for that carry on anymore."
I think you've been in America too long, you want to see hurling teams chucking the ball around like they're the New York Yankees.

I think players should be allowed pick the ball straight off the ground too, would speed up the game instead of having to rise the ball, especially in those unsightly rucks.

Stick to baseball, lad....

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1256 - 26/08/2021 10:32:48    2374872

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "I don't agree that throwing the ball contributes significantly to a more skillful game. The opposite is the case surely. The lack of commentary on RTE & in the general media about the volume of thrown 'handpasses' in championship 2021 is astonishing. Situations where 'what you see isn't what you see at all' will inevitably present challenges for referees, and probably need to be eradicated from the game, where possible. And it's possible with 'handpass throws'. Refs need to blow them up, award frees, and they'll eradicate them."
The lack of commentary on RTE & in the general media about the issue is no surprise at all. Sure, who anywhere is talking about it? Nobody. It's not a big talking point, or a major issue in the game.

The only few that I see complaining about it are the same few who have always something to complain about. When the ball was white they complained. Now that it's yellow, they're still complaining. They won't be happy now, until it's black. And even then they won't be happy.

The game has evolved to what it now is (better than it ever was), and you can't go putting it back. Progression not regression!

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 2202 - 26/08/2021 10:39:31    2374874

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Replying To ballydalane:  "I think you've been in America too long, you want to see hurling teams chucking the ball around like they're the New York Yankees.

I think players should be allowed pick the ball straight off the ground too, would speed up the game instead of having to rise the ball, especially in those unsightly rucks.

Stick to baseball, lad...."
No I wouldn't agree with your suggestion of picking the ball straight off the ground. Sure a fella would have his had blown if he tried that.

It could be a good rule to speed up Gaelic football, though. That game could do with a shot under the arm, to put more life into it. Probably the wrong person to mention Gaelic football to, though.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 2202 - 26/08/2021 10:55:22    2374880

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "The lack of commentary on RTE & in the general media about the issue is no surprise at all. Sure, who anywhere is talking about it? Nobody. It's not a big talking point, or a major issue in the game.

The only few that I see complaining about it are the same few who have always something to complain about. When the ball was white they complained. Now that it's yellow, they're still complaining. They won't be happy now, until it's black. And even then they won't be happy.

The game has evolved to what it now is (better than it ever was), and you can't go putting it back. Progression not regression!"
Plenty of hurling people are not happy with the proliferation of throwy-handpases in the game. The core skills of the game should not be sacrificed in order to make a "faster product" for casual armchair sports fans who might only watch 2 or 3 hurling matches a year on TV.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1256 - 26/08/2021 11:15:13    2374889

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Replying To ballydalane:  "Plenty of hurling people are not happy with the proliferation of throwy-handpases in the game. The core skills of the game should not be sacrificed in order to make a "faster product" for casual armchair sports fans who might only watch 2 or 3 hurling matches a year on TV."
Where'd you get this plenty from? A little minority. That's all. And they're the ones who love the sound of their own little voices anyway. Let's see if any club in any county has a proposal to take to county board to do anything about it. Isn't that how change starts? There won't be a club even in your own county, never mind in the whole of Ireland.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 2202 - 26/08/2021 11:26:41    2374895

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I think we have lost a bit of focus in this thread. The 2008, 2016 and 2021 all Ireland winners were all excellent teams. Hurling is such an exciting game, it is a privilege to attend an all Ireland final. Yes, it can always be improved, but as I see it the game really adds to our lives, not take away. Cork may be down after last Sunday's defeat but as a county they have so much to look forward to in hurling.

In Kilkenny a former great player passed away this week. In Limerick two young men who had given & were giving so much to GAA have left us. The positive is meeting people like that who make our lives better.

Gaelic games are about the people you meet, friendships you make, giving what you can, self improvement and being part of something much bigger than ourselves.

If we can enjoy it along the way, what a bonus. Don't lose the enjoyment factor.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 26/08/2021 11:33:06    2374897

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Replying To slayer:  "I think we have lost a bit of focus in this thread. The 2008, 2016 and 2021 all Ireland winners were all excellent teams. Hurling is such an exciting game, it is a privilege to attend an all Ireland final. Yes, it can always be improved, but as I see it the game really adds to our lives, not take away. Cork may be down after last Sunday's defeat but as a county they have so much to look forward to in hurling.

In Kilkenny a former great player passed away this week. In Limerick two young men who had given & were giving so much to GAA have left us. The positive is meeting people like that who make our lives better.

Gaelic games are about the people you meet, friendships you make, giving what you can, self improvement and being part of something much bigger than ourselves.

If we can enjoy it along the way, what a bonus. Don't lose the enjoyment factor."
Very well said Slayer.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 26/08/2021 11:48:28    2374901

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "Well I don't mean to drag up old dirt, but Limerick complained for a whole generation about the first puck-out of the 96 All-Ireland. I went to college with lads who like me were in nappies at the time, but had been brought up on a healthy diet of anti-Wexford bitterness over it!
Apparently it cost Limerick the match.....no other reason!
'Winners are winners and losers make excuses' - a truer word was never spoken."
To be fair I remember that match well, and that incident Gary Kirby was well and truly lined up by Liam Dunne. That said did I don't think it was the sole reason they lost that game but he was done.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 2303 - 26/08/2021 12:33:45    2374924

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Replying To Seeking_silver:  "Tim O'Mahony about 4" taller than Cian. If you look at a slow mo of it you can see both of O'Mahony's arms around Cian's neck. Cian has one hand on his Hurley. I assume he was initially trying to get O'Mahonys hold free with his other hand. For Cian to throw him over his back, as he did, O'Mahony had to be leaning in on top of him also. So if O'Mahony didn't want to be thrown he simply had to let go of Lynch's neck. What Lynch did wasn't right but what O'Mahony did is also technically a red card. (Wrapping both arms around Lynch's neck). So in order not to destroy an All Ireland Final, Fergal Horgan made the correct decision with two yellows.

Mulcahy's reaction was not nice. Very unlike him and I have a feeling it's part of the reason he was taken off. JK is a man of great integrity and would not stand for anything premeditated like that. I'm sure Mulcahy regrets it now."
I have no issues about who should or should not get a red. The bigger issue is that players look at this incident and realise it is uniquely dangerous because the players head is thrown towards the ground with very little protection. I can see how it happened and I am not vilifying Lynch but it is important that players avoid endangering other players as much as possible, not always easy in a game of speed and passion.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 882 - 26/08/2021 12:44:55    2374928

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "Where'd you get this plenty from? A little minority. That's all. And they're the ones who love the sound of their own little voices anyway. Let's see if any club in any county has a proposal to take to county board to do anything about it. Isn't that how change starts? There won't be a club even in your own county, never mind in the whole of Ireland."
Tbh most hurling people I know reckon there are too many handpasses. I dont mind them myself as it speeds up the game and makes it less scrappy. When executed well and mixed in with longer cross field balls inside or into space its nearly mesmerising how quick a team movement can result in a point or goal. Of course a lad winning a long puckout and turning his man to put it over the bar is quality hurling too but maybe not as exciting.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15639 - 26/08/2021 12:53:20    2374934

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Replying To Bon:  "To be fair I remember that match well, and that incident Gary Kirby was well and truly lined up by Liam Dunne. That said did I don't think it was the sole reason they lost that game but he was done."
Remember it too. It epitomised how up for the game Griffin had Dunne and the lads. Every team that has ever won an all Ireland played with that intensity. Or they wouldnt have won.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15639 - 26/08/2021 12:57:33    2374936

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Replying To Viking66:  "Remember it too. It epitomised how up for the game Griffin had Dunne and the lads. Every team that has ever won an all Ireland played with that intensity. Or they wouldnt have won."
Well deserving champions that day, playing more than half the game with 14 men. Liam Griffin was some operator, a great Hurling man.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 2303 - 26/08/2021 13:16:10    2374946

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "Where'd you get this plenty from? A little minority. That's all. And they're the ones who love the sound of their own little voices anyway. Let's see if any club in any county has a proposal to take to county board to do anything about it. Isn't that how change starts? There won't be a club even in your own county, never mind in the whole of Ireland."
I would beg to differ. Most hurling people I know are concerned about the proliferation of thrown handpasses in the game which was so evident in this year's championship. If refs do not crack down on it soon there will be a plethora of motions taken to county boards around the country with proposals to place restrictions on handpassing.

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 2015 - 26/08/2021 13:27:04    2374955

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Congratulations to Limerick... a few more years of hurling dominance is in the offing! No regrets here... Cork have good underage teams in pipeline. I enjoyed the pregame banter.... "Siege of Limerick was the only siege where the inhabitants wanted to escape ". Ha ha

Rockies (Cork) - Posts: 947 - 26/08/2021 13:46:29    2374961

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Replying To PoolSturgeon:  "I would beg to differ. Most hurling people I know are concerned about the proliferation of thrown handpasses in the game which was so evident in this year's championship. If refs do not crack down on it soon there will be a plethora of motions taken to county boards around the country with proposals to place restrictions on handpassing."
Yes I would also be one of the tiny minority who would prefer if the existing rule was enforced consistently. Currently it is ignored at intercounty level and generally enforced but again not consistently at interclub grades.
In my opinion a lot of the problems in football nowadays stemmed from lack of enforcement of the tackle rule in the 90s.
Similar laissez faire attitude to the handpass rule will lead to other problems.

Westfester (Limerick) - Posts: 979 - 26/08/2021 13:49:28    2374964

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