|
The second part of O'Rourke's article, entitled 'Undermining the Game' is as good a summation of modern Gaelic football as I have ever read:
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/0524/1223503-defensive-frailties-still-undermining-kerrys-prospects/
Yesterday, watching the Kerry-Dublin game, I was actually thinking - "what exactly is a tackle nowadays"?
The shoulder, obviously, is history. I remember seeing Stephen O'Neill actually yellow carded in Croke Park for a textbook shoulder. Let's face it, at the best of times, you only got a handful of chances to nail somebody with a good shoulder. Very often, you're too close, so it's just a shove; or you're too distant, in which case you'd be turned if you attempted it. So the shoulder was always sort of irrelevant, nothing more than a bonus if you could land one; and with the speed and conditioning of today's players, it's even more irrelevant.
In soccer, the attacker's possession fundamentally is more vulnerable, as the ball is at his feet and he can be dispossessed. In Gaelic, where you are allowed to solo the ball to your hand, your options are to shadow the player or hope to nick the ball away, but the latter rarely happens and shadowing doesn't really work most times, given how much off the ball support running is happening and how many guys can kick scores from silly angles anyway.
So it begs the question - how do you stop a player nowadays? Increasingly, the answer seems to be that the defending team can stop a play, but you can't necessarily break down a move any more by neutralising your immediate opponent. May be personally cathartic, but it usually won't work. You've put in a big old-fashioned hit, but so what, the play has gone on and you've conceded a score anyway.
You could always go for a rugby drag down tackle, as with AFL, but I can't see that happening. Ironically though, when there is an outlet within the rules to deck somebody legally, it can have the unintended effect of cleaning up the game, as it removes the temptation to do all the other little niggles that happen all the time anyway, in large part as a response to the fact that we don't really have a meaningful tackle.
The counter-argument is that it doesn't matter, and in toady's world of concussion-awareness etc, to have as many people as possible playing team sports, it's worth sacrificing some physicality in order to keep people safely in the game.
essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 24/05/2021 10:18:51
2344849
Link
0
|
|
I'm hoping this post will fit here..have the gas introduced a head injury assessment..why?well I've watched a lot of games in both codes and I think a ref should now insist on players being taken off going by how they go down and roll on the ground..I'm not disagreeing with yellow or red cards being given out..I've seen players going down holding their heads and then get up and put in man of match performance after..prunty(Waterford),barrett(tipp)..2 players were sent off but these 2 really made a meal of things..o Callaghan for Dublin with a penalty incident,as for the Clare/Kildare game the last 10 minutes were ridiculous..Clare players on ground all the time..as soon as ref took action all injured players up and flying..it's a dangerous road to be going down and has to be got rid of..it's happening in every county and in every game played..either get tackling right or the so called injured player off,see how long then it goes on in games..sorry about the long post..
CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2216 - 24/05/2021 15:14:29
2345008
Link
2
|
|
Replying To CTGAA10: "I'm hoping this post will fit here..have the gas introduced a head injury assessment..why?well I've watched a lot of games in both codes and I think a ref should now insist on players being taken off going by how they go down and roll on the ground..I'm not disagreeing with yellow or red cards being given out..I've seen players going down holding their heads and then get up and put in man of match performance after..prunty(Waterford),barrett(tipp)..2 players were sent off but these 2 really made a meal of things..o Callaghan for Dublin with a penalty incident,as for the Clare/Kildare game the last 10 minutes were ridiculous..Clare players on ground all the time..as soon as ref took action all injured players up and flying..it's a dangerous road to be going down and has to be got rid of..it's happening in every county and in every game played..either get tackling right or the so called injured player off,see how long then it goes on in games..sorry about the long post.." Totally agree with you. Kyle Hayes snapping his head back after loosing possession but never touched. This is player behaviour that should be dealt with and not put on the refs.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 24/05/2021 16:23:22
2345052
Link
1
|
|
Replying To CTGAA10: "I'm hoping this post will fit here..have the gas introduced a head injury assessment..why?well I've watched a lot of games in both codes and I think a ref should now insist on players being taken off going by how they go down and roll on the ground..I'm not disagreeing with yellow or red cards being given out..I've seen players going down holding their heads and then get up and put in man of match performance after..prunty(Waterford),barrett(tipp)..2 players were sent off but these 2 really made a meal of things..o Callaghan for Dublin with a penalty incident,as for the Clare/Kildare game the last 10 minutes were ridiculous..Clare players on ground all the time..as soon as ref took action all injured players up and flying..it's a dangerous road to be going down and has to be got rid of..it's happening in every county and in every game played..either get tackling right or the so called injured player off,see how long then it goes on in games..sorry about the long post.." Better to allow back some physical contact. Only a free for a dangerous head or chest hit. And a red card. That should stop alot of it.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11851 - 24/05/2021 16:28:44
2345057
Link
0
|
|
Viking I've no problem with physical contact..where I have a problem is players going down in both codes like they have been shot by a sniper..it's a horrible part of the game now..that's why I asked about the hia as in rugby,if the ref was to say off you go and get assessed,would players keep falling down if they missed 10 mins due to play acting?
CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2216 - 24/05/2021 17:10:10
2345076
Link
1
|
|
The OP raised an excellent question, relevant more to football if I understand correctly. It cuts to the definition of the game - how do you get the ball back? The rules and interpretation of same have high scoring as the sole objective, giving defenders little option but to mass their efforts. The fair contest for possession has to be brought back into the game.
A big part of this would be to actually implement the rules as they stand now. Refs and supporters are happy to allow 6 or 7 steps in the lead up to a scoring chance. A forward just has to tuck the ball, drop the shoulder and plough on. Chance or free in every time. There would be mayhem for a while if refs started pulling lads up on the way through but it should happen.
Another one is allowance of a double hop after the initial gaining of possession. OK in the first contact with the ball, but should be called as a free thereafter. There may case to be made for limiting the solo bounce in the game altogether
If a player goes to ground and lies over the ball its a free against them, not a throw ball. Just call it.
In terms of scoring, it is probably time to do away with points scored out of the hand, and scored with the hand from a ball in flight from a handpass. Make the forward earn the score by kicking the damn ball.
Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1057 - 24/05/2021 18:02:40
2345091
Link
0
|
|
Aidan O'Rourke has a bit about this on the RTÉ website. I agree that too much advantage is given to forwards.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 24/05/2021 18:42:07
2345103
Link
3
|
|
Replying To Viking66: "Better to allow back some physical contact. Only a free for a dangerous head or chest hit. And a red card. That should stop alot of it." That is one of the problems Viking 66 players are now getting called if the other player goes down. Austin Gleeson is an example. Because of his reputation he is now getting called constantly for good hits. While he is getting niggled and provoked by sneaky opponents. He is now showing some reasonable restraint to this and using what is legal retrobution and been penalized. He has Frank Cummins type strength. If some of these roll around fakers played in Frank's time they would be picking themselves up off the ground more often.
I know you don't agree but I see no problem with a shoulder to the chest with the feet planted and elbows down. Of course not taking a run at the player and leaving your feet. Far better than arms around the neck. Put some tool in the hands of players to stop advancement other that free hands dragging and pulling. Of course there is potential for injury that no one wants to see. Pulling around the neck also has that risk. Wee can agree to differ on this one and express different opinions.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 24/05/2021 19:01:16
2345114
Link
0
|
|
Replying To CTGAA10: "Viking I've no problem with physical contact..where I have a problem is players going down in both codes like they have been shot by a sniper..it's a horrible part of the game now..that's why I asked about the hia as in rugby,if the ref was to say off you go and get assessed,would players keep falling down if they missed 10 mins due to play acting?" If on the street, you were knocked down and hit so hard, that it took you a minute to get to your feet, you'd barely be fit to walk for a few minutes after, as for playing an intercounty match?
Forget about it.
Players who are down for more than ten seconds shouldn't be allowed resume playing imo, and be replaced , no doubt this will be cynically exploited by managers to get more substitutions, but we're long past expecting our players and coaches to play with integrity (only winning matters you see), so it's a price worth paying imo.
Another option would be for an independent body to interview the team physio, and the "injured" player separately after the game, and compare their accounts.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1708 - 24/05/2021 20:44:08
2345174
Link
1
|
|
Replying To CTGAA10: "Viking I've no problem with physical contact..where I have a problem is players going down in both codes like they have been shot by a sniper..it's a horrible part of the game now..that's why I asked about the hia as in rugby,if the ref was to say off you go and get assessed,would players keep falling down if they missed 10 mins due to play acting?" I absolutely hate it and it happens at club level too. The problem is, its getting to a point where there's no point being the virtue signaller and losing a game in the process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZvhCKR7_mY
I can't see too many standing up to the first one, let alone the second one, that Eoin Kelly got here.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 24/05/2021 21:44:44
2345205
Link
1
|
|
Replying To CTGAA10: "Viking I've no problem with physical contact..where I have a problem is players going down in both codes like they have been shot by a sniper..it's a horrible part of the game now..that's why I asked about the hia as in rugby,if the ref was to say off you go and get assessed,would players keep falling down if they missed 10 mins due to play acting?" I agree 100% with you CTGAA10. Thats why I'm proposing minimal contact such as bumping into a player with the ball, or indeed the other way around, or grabbing a lads shirt for a second, or his arm for a second, shouldn't be deemed fouls at all. Then lads wouldn't be throwing themselves to the ground trying to get a free. If you run full tilt and you shoulder or elbow or knee a guy to the head or chest, regardless if you or the fella you hit has the ball, you get a red card for dangerous play. You get a yellow and sin bin for tripping or rugby tackling, ie with both hands/arms or your leg, a fella with the ball. Automatic red will eradicate plain dangerous play. And legalising 1 hand on a fellas arm or shirt would mean refs dont have grey areas to decide on with regards to contact. And lads wont be throwing themselves on the floor when they feel the least touch because everyone will know contact in the tackle is ok in a contact sport and wont result in a free however theatrical the dive. Less grey areas and less stops to the game. Football and hurling both.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11851 - 24/05/2021 23:09:03
2345233
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Canuck: "That is one of the problems Viking 66 players are now getting called if the other player goes down. Austin Gleeson is an example. Because of his reputation he is now getting called constantly for good hits. While he is getting niggled and provoked by sneaky opponents. He is now showing some reasonable restraint to this and using what is legal retrobution and been penalized. He has Frank Cummins type strength. If some of these roll around fakers played in Frank's time they would be picking themselves up off the ground more often.
I know you don't agree but I see no problem with a shoulder to the chest with the feet planted and elbows down. Of course not taking a run at the player and leaving your feet. Far better than arms around the neck. Put some tool in the hands of players to stop advancement other that free hands dragging and pulling. Of course there is potential for injury that no one wants to see. Pulling around the neck also has that risk. Wee can agree to differ on this one and express different opinions." A shoulder to the chest is ok if both players aren't moving Canuck. But if 1 or both is travelling at speed it's very dangerous. So best outlaw it altogether. Again no grey areas for the ref to deal with.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11851 - 24/05/2021 23:11:22
2345235
Link
0
|
|
Replying To CTGAA10: "I'm hoping this post will fit here..have the gas introduced a head injury assessment..why?well I've watched a lot of games in both codes and I think a ref should now insist on players being taken off going by how they go down and roll on the ground..I'm not disagreeing with yellow or red cards being given out..I've seen players going down holding their heads and then get up and put in man of match performance after..prunty(Waterford),barrett(tipp)..2 players were sent off but these 2 really made a meal of things..o Callaghan for Dublin with a penalty incident,as for the Clare/Kildare game the last 10 minutes were ridiculous..Clare players on ground all the time..as soon as ref took action all injured players up and flying..it's a dangerous road to be going down and has to be got rid of..it's happening in every county and in every game played..either get tackling right or the so called injured player off,see how long then it goes on in games..sorry about the long post.." This matter must be addressed with urgency. How often have we seen a player on contact diving to the ground rolling around in agony until the ref. is seen to give a free and then jump up and take the free. Cue a certain free scoring Monaghan forward. A player who feigns injury should be ordered to the side line for assessment and should not be allowed back until a later break in play.
Declankillann
declankillann (Dublin) - Posts: 83 - 24/05/2021 23:58:06
2345246
Link
0
|
|
Replying To declankillann: "This matter must be addressed with urgency. How often have we seen a player on contact diving to the ground rolling around in agony until the ref. is seen to give a free and then jump up and take the free. Cue a certain free scoring Monaghan forward. A player who feigns injury should be ordered to the side line for assessment and should not be allowed back until a later break in play.
Declankillann" What do you mean "a certain" forward?
Just name him ffs.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1708 - 25/05/2021 12:06:44
2345317
Link
0
|
|
Excellent topic Essmac.
I find it interesting that when topics like this come up, real tactical football topics, none of the main posters with 10000 plus posts or the usual topic wreckers from Dublin/Kerry enter into the converstation.
Anyway - rules favour the forward big time. As another poster said the amount of steps a forward takes nowadays is ridiculous, put the ball under the arm and run for 8-10 steps. if a defender lays a finger on a forward its a free. if refs implemented the rules fairly it would help.
However its also up to coaches to teach children/adults the right way to tackle. Near hand/hand in hand out. jockey away from goal etc. There is a hugh emphysis on stopping the man with the first tackle. but the way players are built these days it is very difficult.
Dont think the Aussie rules style of drag down would work. Last 5 mins of a game it would be carnage. you would have players lying everywhere to see out the game.
As i said rules and teaching - only way around it.
The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 25/05/2021 12:45:37
2345341
Link
2
|
|
Replying To The_Fridge: "Excellent topic Essmac.
I find it interesting that when topics like this come up, real tactical football topics, none of the main posters with 10000 plus posts or the usual topic wreckers from Dublin/Kerry enter into the converstation.
Anyway - rules favour the forward big time. As another poster said the amount of steps a forward takes nowadays is ridiculous, put the ball under the arm and run for 8-10 steps. if a defender lays a finger on a forward its a free. if refs implemented the rules fairly it would help.
However its also up to coaches to teach children/adults the right way to tackle. Near hand/hand in hand out. jockey away from goal etc. There is a hugh emphysis on stopping the man with the first tackle. but the way players are built these days it is very difficult.
Dont think the Aussie rules style of drag down would work. Last 5 mins of a game it would be carnage. you would have players lying everywhere to see out the game.
As i said rules and teaching - only way around it." Agreed. Its a shame that the topic is already hijacked by lads offering trite examples of individual players and focussing on fouls they have seen. Missing the point entirely. Reminds me of the first night at referee training!
The debate around this needs to move away from the individual or team-based examples, it cannot be a reaction to any particular teams dominance in a championship for example. It needs to focus on creating a fair contest for possession on re-starts and during open play. Dull huh? Some clear scope for improvement
1. No more points scored off the hand inside 20m
2. No more scores by the hand off ball in flight played by hand-pass (but from kick ok)
3. Tighten on double hop after initial possession has been secured
4. Attacking player goes to ground in possession of ball is a turnover. reward for a fair shoulder and good footwork
5. Steps, steps, steps
6. Pulling down a defender to gain advantage. Black card
7. Hand on the back is not a push in the back. Clear force needed for free
Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1057 - 25/05/2021 15:35:51
2345403
Link
2
|
|
Replying To Viking66: "A shoulder to the chest is ok if both players aren't moving Canuck. But if 1 or both is travelling at speed it's very dangerous. So best outlaw it altogether. Again no grey areas for the ref to deal with." Yes as in those rucks where there is no movement only a lot of poking. Also a third man in rule would stop some of it. The problem with whether it is an existing rule or a new rule the GAA people , players, managers and supporters always looking for the grey area. If there is not one it will be created to excuse one's team from fouling. The referee has an unenviable job. He has to be 100% right all the time and is scrutinized (me to) more than the 30 players on the field who many are now into simulation. I would be giving him more power to be right or wrong. We all know watching how the game is going including the ref with regards fouling and frees. Have him call the captains or managers during a break and tell them I am going to send the next player off (a team penalty) from one side or the other if this continues. I don't care if I am right or wrong. You are destroying this game not me. You hear it all the time in hockey. The two teams settle down and start playing. It is preferable to keep players on the field but if there is no deterrent they take advantage.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 25/05/2021 15:45:29
2345406
Link
0
|
|
Well we do certainly have a problem. One quick change would be to stop yellow carding guys if the shoulder isn't 100% correct. Give the free but don't give a yellow. That would stop a guy being afraid for 60mins after rgetting yellowed for a innocuous shoulder in the first ten.
Personally I think the Aussie rules tackle is coming to Gaelic football. Its looking like the only option. Iv no problem with it really, it speeds up the game and gives a real physical aspect. Stops all the niggly slapping and dragging.
Hurling is abit different, well alot different. Id look at Lacrosse and how physical that is. Id allow a full body collide in that. Just everything below the head and neck. Up to you to protect your chest. Might mean some body padding. Again it would mean the physical aspect comes in again.
bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 25/05/2021 16:25:03
2345421
Link
0
|
|
Excellent OP.
I remember Stevie O'Neill famously trying to nail Neil McGee with a shoulder one time and it didn't exactly go to plan! :P
Is tackling coached as a "skill"? I'd be very interested in watching someone like Donie Buckley (a frequently revered defensive coach) taking a training session or two just to see what kind of drills are done.
Karl Lacey was an excellent tackler. He used hand speed as his tackling weapon more often than not. Waiting for a slightly misjudged solo or bounce to get a quick hand in to bat or strip the ball away.
I commented on the Donegal forum, a lot of teams nowadays opt for a systemic defensive approach more so than the traditional man-on-man marking of the past. Could it be the case that defenders in general just aren't as good as in the past?
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9136 - 25/05/2021 16:30:57
2345425
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Lockjaw: "Excellent OP.
I remember Stevie O'Neill famously trying to nail Neil McGee with a shoulder one time and it didn't exactly go to plan! :P
Is tackling coached as a "skill"? I'd be very interested in watching someone like Donie Buckley (a frequently revered defensive coach) taking a training session or two just to see what kind of drills are done.
Karl Lacey was an excellent tackler. He used hand speed as his tackling weapon more often than not. Waiting for a slightly misjudged solo or bounce to get a quick hand in to bat or strip the ball away.
I commented on the Donegal forum, a lot of teams nowadays opt for a systemic defensive approach more so than the traditional man-on-man marking of the past. Could it be the case that defenders in general just aren't as good as in the past?" Absolutely, I think part of the reason we don't see these teams go man to man against the likes of Dublin that everyone would love to see is because of this. Because that's when players get isolated and exposed, work in a system together and you don't need to be a good tackler. It is the pressure and hassling that makes the other teams lose the ball or the move breaks down and it is a real skill gone from the game
Justlooking123 (UK) - Posts: 13 - 25/05/2021 16:37:30
2345426
Link
0
|