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Westmeath Hurling

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Replying To tonguey:  "Why this obsession with Donal O Grady? I know he is part of the management team but surely coach Kingston can wield his authority in this position no? Obviously he wants these tactics implemented also as if he did not he would not agree it or if he did he would have no authority at all within the camp.

So I think blaming former coach O Grady for this is unfair. Coach Kingston must take accountability and he won't get away with it now."
No obsession at all. It is an example. Best to use somebody from Cork as mentioning someone outside of Cork would be interpreted here as an attack.

O'Grady has been successful. This , I assume, is why 'Coach Kingston' hired him. They are trying their best for Cork to win within the rules. That can't be crticised.

I observe (and I am not alone) that is not pleasing to watch.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3870 - 18/05/2021 15:53:00    2343129

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Replying To bennybunny:  "True. It is way of keeping possession. However, those tasked with the health of the sport have to decide what is good for the game. If that doesn't align with the tactics of Donal O'Grady then that is tough on him.

If the current style of Cork and their ilk is deemed as attractive then so be it. Leave it be.

However, if we want to see a more combative game where lads keep their hands on their hurleys to demonstrate the skills of the game rather than on the sliothar or their opponent (ie modern 'tackling') then regulation is needed. There is no skill to swarm tackling and little skill in handpassing. Athleticism and fitness for sure but not real skill. If Donal O'Grady and others still wants to keep possession then he they must think of a new way of doing it."
I think O Grady and Kingston are more concerned with bringing Liam back to Leeside than looking good playing long stick passes up the pitch.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3211 - 18/05/2021 18:26:30    2343175

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Replying To Viking66:  "I think O Grady and Kingston are more concerned with bringing Liam back to Leeside than looking good playing long stick passes up the pitch."
Winning is the be-all and end-all in every match. Winning the title is the point of every competition. Not to try everything legal to achieve that objective and you might as well ask yourself what you are doing playing at all. Face facts. Nobody remembers the glorious losers.

If I remember correctly, it was Kilkenny who initiated the swarm tackle, precisely - as Benny Bunny says - to nullify the Cork possession game. Cork, adopted the possession game because they didn't have players who could win enough possession in a melee. Counties come up with a method which works for them. Others shouldn't criticise that.

I have heard nothing more nonsensical in recent times as calls for the ball to be made heavier again - to rescind progress! Sure the lighter ball means you can now score points from well inside your own half, but it doesn't happen frequently, because not everyone is equally accurate, or accurate all of the time. It's a bit of a gamble, so more often the option is to play the ball inside to a team mate showing for it.

Throwing the ball is a bit of a pestilence, all right, but randomly penalising players is not the way to solve it. The only real options are to legalise it, or ban it altogether and use the hurly to make the pass. The players would have no problem adapting.

Talking about enforcing the rules, when are referees and linesmen going to enforce where the sideline cut is taken from? Like football, it's supposed to be taken from on or outside the sideline, but most players now place it almost three feet inside the line. Why is the GAA ignoring this?

Midleton (Cork) - Posts: 611 - 19/05/2021 13:32:37    2343345

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Replying To Midleton:  "Winning is the be-all and end-all in every match. Winning the title is the point of every competition. Not to try everything legal to achieve that objective and you might as well ask yourself what you are doing playing at all. Face facts. Nobody remembers the glorious losers.

If I remember correctly, it was Kilkenny who initiated the swarm tackle, precisely - as Benny Bunny says - to nullify the Cork possession game. Cork, adopted the possession game because they didn't have players who could win enough possession in a melee. Counties come up with a method which works for them. Others shouldn't criticise that.

I have heard nothing more nonsensical in recent times as calls for the ball to be made heavier again - to rescind progress! Sure the lighter ball means you can now score points from well inside your own half, but it doesn't happen frequently, because not everyone is equally accurate, or accurate all of the time. It's a bit of a gamble, so more often the option is to play the ball inside to a team mate showing for it.

Throwing the ball is a bit of a pestilence, all right, but randomly penalising players is not the way to solve it. The only real options are to legalise it, or ban it altogether and use the hurly to make the pass. The players would have no problem adapting.

Talking about enforcing the rules, when are referees and linesmen going to enforce where the sideline cut is taken from? Like football, it's supposed to be taken from on or outside the sideline, but most players now place it almost three feet inside the line. Why is the GAA ignoring this?"
You are right. Teams will come up with new tactics and other teams will do their best to negate them. Has happened all the time in every team sport. Not sure why the sideline rule isnt enforced I can't remember it ever happening. The point to the rule is so players cant play it straight up the line I imagine but players move it in to give themselves that option.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3211 - 19/05/2021 14:12:24    2343365

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Replying To Midleton:  "Winning is the be-all and end-all in every match. Winning the title is the point of every competition. Not to try everything legal to achieve that objective and you might as well ask yourself what you are doing playing at all. Face facts. Nobody remembers the glorious losers.

If I remember correctly, it was Kilkenny who initiated the swarm tackle, precisely - as Benny Bunny says - to nullify the Cork possession game. Cork, adopted the possession game because they didn't have players who could win enough possession in a melee. Counties come up with a method which works for them. Others shouldn't criticise that.

I have heard nothing more nonsensical in recent times as calls for the ball to be made heavier again - to rescind progress! Sure the lighter ball means you can now score points from well inside your own half, but it doesn't happen frequently, because not everyone is equally accurate, or accurate all of the time. It's a bit of a gamble, so more often the option is to play the ball inside to a team mate showing for it.

Throwing the ball is a bit of a pestilence, all right, but randomly penalising players is not the way to solve it. The only real options are to legalise it, or ban it altogether and use the hurly to make the pass. The players would have no problem adapting.

Talking about enforcing the rules, when are referees and linesmen going to enforce where the sideline cut is taken from? Like football, it's supposed to be taken from on or outside the sideline, but most players now place it almost three feet inside the line. Why is the GAA ignoring this?"
Perhaps the GAA are ignoring these transgressions because like you they believe that no one remembers the glorious losers and that players shouldn't be expected to play the game properly in the pursuit of victory.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 936 - 19/05/2021 16:14:24    2343419

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Replying To Viking66:  "I think O Grady and Kingston are more concerned with bringing Liam back to Leeside than looking good playing long stick passes up the pitch."
I know. I said that. And if they do win the vast majority in Cork will be happy in theshort term. I will be happy. But,longer term, it will not change the fact that it is ugly. Terrible to watch. There is minimal skill in over carrying, handpassing and diving.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3870 - 19/05/2021 21:41:36    2343496

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Replying To Midleton:  "Winning is the be-all and end-all in every match. Winning the title is the point of every competition. Not to try everything legal to achieve that objective and you might as well ask yourself what you are doing playing at all. Face facts. Nobody remembers the glorious losers.

If I remember correctly, it was Kilkenny who initiated the swarm tackle, precisely - as Benny Bunny says - to nullify the Cork possession game. Cork, adopted the possession game because they didn't have players who could win enough possession in a melee. Counties come up with a method which works for them. Others shouldn't criticise that.

I have heard nothing more nonsensical in recent times as calls for the ball to be made heavier again - to rescind progress! Sure the lighter ball means you can now score points from well inside your own half, but it doesn't happen frequently, because not everyone is equally accurate, or accurate all of the time. It's a bit of a gamble, so more often the option is to play the ball inside to a team mate showing for it.

Throwing the ball is a bit of a pestilence, all right, but randomly penalising players is not the way to solve it. The only real options are to legalise it, or ban it altogether and use the hurly to make the pass. The players would have no problem adapting.

Talking about enforcing the rules, when are referees and linesmen going to enforce where the sideline cut is taken from? Like football, it's supposed to be taken from on or outside the sideline, but most players now place it almost three feet inside the line. Why is the GAA ignoring this?"
Not sure about the sideline issue. It seems a very simple one to implement that as the linesman is standing right there .

In terms of the possession game wasn't it Newtown that came up with that because their tactic was simply to let Ben and Gerry have the ball. And given Newtowns remarkable success in Cork between 1998 and 2003 for such a small club it made sense to examine what lead to their success. Effectively Ben and Gerry destroyed teams because you couldn't get the ball of them. Having Tom Kenny and Timmy McCarthy meant that O Grady could adopt and play the Newtown way.

Fast forward almost two decades and he is trying again. This time there is no Ben and Gerry or Tom and Timmy. We played that way in mid 2000s and it was definitely to our strengths. It remains to be seen if currently this is playing to our strengths.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3870 - 19/05/2021 21:58:53    2343504

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Replying To Galway9801:  "Perhaps the GAA are ignoring these transgressions because like you they believe that no one remembers the glorious losers and that players shouldn't be expected to play the game properly in the pursuit of victory."
Actually thats not strictly true . Betcha most people would remember more of the Waterford 04 team than Corks winning team from the same year

UtahBlaine (Galway) - Posts: 99 - 19/05/2021 22:08:35    2343506

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There may be a very simple solution to some of hurlings current ills and all it would require is a small rule change .If it was mandatory for puck outs to pass the half way line teams would have to play with half forwards in position ,and in one sweep would remove hand passing from the back.As an added bonus it might encourage the return of the overhead pull and would also re introduce an element of chance with the breaking ball.

UtahBlaine (Galway) - Posts: 99 - 19/05/2021 22:21:28    2343510

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Replying To UtahBlaine:  "There may be a very simple solution to some of hurlings current ills and all it would require is a small rule change .If it was mandatory for puck outs to pass the half way line teams would have to play with half forwards in position ,and in one sweep would remove hand passing from the back.As an added bonus it might encourage the return of the overhead pull and would also re introduce an element of chance with the breaking ball."
The issue i would have with your solution is that if teams know that a puck out has to travel past half way, then opposing teams will just drop players back similar to how the full forward line are essentially out at the 45m line for puck outs.

I don't have a solution myself as to what needs to be done, i would say outside the 45 would be a better option is something was to be done. There is such a focus on retaining possession these days that its ruining the spectacle. The players are over coached and everything is scripted. and while a level of a script is needed, things have gone too far in my opinion, similar to what happened 10-12 yrs ago with football, and it has taken this long for it to return to something of its former self.

additionally in both code, the level of physicality needs to be increased and allowed by referees. This is what I, and many other, enjoy about our games. And Yes there's a level of physicality that shouldn't be tolerated but reality is the majority of players will not cross the line.

juicy (Meath) - Posts: 391 - 20/05/2021 09:51:09    2343540

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Replying To UtahBlaine:  "There may be a very simple solution to some of hurlings current ills and all it would require is a small rule change .If it was mandatory for puck outs to pass the half way line teams would have to play with half forwards in position ,and in one sweep would remove hand passing from the back.As an added bonus it might encourage the return of the overhead pull and would also re introduce an element of chance with the breaking ball."
Problem is they are trying to get rid of overhead pulls as being dangerous play. More frees given for them than not these days. Even pulling on the ball on the ground is more often than not blown up for a free

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3211 - 20/05/2021 10:34:35    2343556

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Replying To bennybunny:  "Not sure about the sideline issue. It seems a very simple one to implement that as the linesman is standing right there .

In terms of the possession game wasn't it Newtown that came up with that because their tactic was simply to let Ben and Gerry have the ball. And given Newtowns remarkable success in Cork between 1998 and 2003 for such a small club it made sense to examine what lead to their success. Effectively Ben and Gerry destroyed teams because you couldn't get the ball of them. Having Tom Kenny and Timmy McCarthy meant that O Grady could adopt and play the Newtown way.

Fast forward almost two decades and he is trying again. This time there is no Ben and Gerry or Tom and Timmy. We played that way in mid 2000s and it was definitely to our strengths. It remains to be seen if currently this is playing to our strengths."
You are right about the pass and run game having originated in Newtownshandrum. Credit must go to Bernie O'Connor (Ben and Jerry's father) for that. I think it was coming off the last strike and The Echo wrote to several club managers asking them how they would handle the job if appointed Cork manager. The only one who gave a detailed plan was Bernie O'Connor. He also said that he thought he could win a couple of All-Irelands with the then Cork squad. It was Donal O'Grady who got the job and using O'Connnor's tactics, Cork did indeed win two All-Irelands over the next three years.

The importance to Cork of Donal O'Grady is not, however, the possession game, but instilling the basic tactics of the proper way to tackle and to close down the opposition. I think we've seen evidence of that already, although it is still not a 100 percent given. I remember at the time being told that there were were hurlies smashed in anger up in Pairc Ui Chaoimh the night before and later learned that The Rock had been told to go away and come back when he had lost a stone!

Midleton (Cork) - Posts: 611 - 20/05/2021 13:01:49    2343624

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Replying To Midleton:  "You are right about the pass and run game having originated in Newtownshandrum. Credit must go to Bernie O'Connor (Ben and Jerry's father) for that. I think it was coming off the last strike and The Echo wrote to several club managers asking them how they would handle the job if appointed Cork manager. The only one who gave a detailed plan was Bernie O'Connor. He also said that he thought he could win a couple of All-Irelands with the then Cork squad. It was Donal O'Grady who got the job and using O'Connnor's tactics, Cork did indeed win two All-Irelands over the next three years.

The importance to Cork of Donal O'Grady is not, however, the possession game, but instilling the basic tactics of the proper way to tackle and to close down the opposition. I think we've seen evidence of that already, although it is still not a 100 percent given. I remember at the time being told that there were were hurlies smashed in anger up in Pairc Ui Chaoimh the night before and later learned that The Rock had been told to go away and come back when he had lost a stone!"
I am amazed no o e is on saying Corks demolition of Westmeath on Sunday by 30 points or there abouts is not bad for Westmeath hurling...a decent display against Waterford the week before probably instantly erased...

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 866 - 25/05/2021 23:49:58    2345542

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Christ some of the goals cork got were so easy, they walked them in.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1362 - 26/05/2021 13:29:51    2345652

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "I am amazed no o e is on saying Corks demolition of Westmeath on Sunday by 30 points or there abouts is not bad for Westmeath hurling...a decent display against Waterford the week before probably instantly erased..."
The gap is huge between the top 5-6 teams and Westmeath, Laois, Carlow, Antrim and Kerry.

The solution is go back to 8 team divisions and have
Div 1a as the elite group but the top teams don't want it.

carlovia (None) - Posts: 1339 - 26/05/2021 13:45:47    2345659

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Replying To carlovia:  "The gap is huge between the top 5-6 teams and Westmeath, Laois, Carlow, Antrim and Kerry.

The solution is go back to 8 team divisions and have
Div 1a as the elite group but the top teams don't want it."
Wasnt the top teams wanted the change. The change was made so your tier 2 counties named could get regular games against better opponents to bring their individual games on.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3211 - 26/05/2021 16:08:45    2345711

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Replying To carlovia:  "The gap is huge between the top 5-6 teams and Westmeath, Laois, Carlow, Antrim and Kerry.

The solution is go back to 8 team divisions and have
Div 1a as the elite group but the top teams don't want it."
8 teams isn't that long ago since it was the way.
There was always a team like Wexford, Limerick, Dublin, Clare who weren't benefitting from playing the top teams at the time. By championship, they were off the pace. In addition, there was another few teams in 1B who were getting trounced by the 4 teams above.
No easy answers, but maybe levelling up the 2 groups is the place to start.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1377 - 28/05/2021 12:01:38    2346053

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "8 teams isn't that long ago since it was the way.
There was always a team like Wexford, Limerick, Dublin, Clare who weren't benefitting from playing the top teams at the time. By championship, they were off the pace. In addition, there was another few teams in 1B who were getting trounced by the 4 teams above.
No easy answers, but maybe levelling up the 2 groups is the place to start."
Part of the problem was in the early 2010s how Div 1 was set up kept changing to suit curtain teams. The likes of Clare, Limerick and Wexford were poor around this time and got the hump when they got relegated. At one point the Clare manager actually said they should be left stay in Div 1 because it wouldn't be any good for them to be in Div 2.

Was around that time they brought in the play off for the Div 2 winners.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 704 - 28/05/2021 12:45:02    2346066

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Replying To oneoff:  "Part of the problem was in the early 2010s how Div 1 was set up kept changing to suit curtain teams. The likes of Clare, Limerick and Wexford were poor around this time and got the hump when they got relegated. At one point the Clare manager actually said they should be left stay in Div 1 because it wouldn't be any good for them to be in Div 2.

Was around that time they brought in the play off for the Div 2 winners."
Westmeath or any county (Offaly included when Kilkenny destroyed Leinster hurling) being beaten by 30 points is of zero use to that county, will probably end the careers of some of the players in time...ok to say if you havent got the mental ability you shouldnt be playing but you wont know until such a dribbing is dished out...like how much is enough to win by?..if hurling evolves to this utopia some on here think it has the right to simply because its up t the chasing pack to catch up with the top table..what will we say then, Kilkenny or Tipperary beat Westmeath by 60 points "oh it will do them no harm, it will show them the standard they have to reach etc"...lesser teams will never reach those levels..players will go home disallusioned and next autumn the manager will be told players are "taking time out" or other...what is the solution, I dont know, but hammerings of 30 points are of no use to anyone I dont care what anyone says..

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 866 - 28/05/2021 17:26:21    2346117

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "I am amazed no o e is on saying Corks demolition of Westmeath on Sunday by 30 points or there abouts is not bad for Westmeath hurling...a decent display against Waterford the week before probably instantly erased..."
I started this tread and I agree with you. It's pointless. What we have now is the top hurling counties dictating to the rest about structures that suit themselves and are of no benefit to teams trying to improve. I'd see nothing wrong with div one of best eight and then division two the next best and so on. Something for everyone to play for there.

Ben (None) - Posts: 100 - 28/05/2021 18:52:41    2346126

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