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New Advantage Rule In Hurling

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "What you are proposing is a recipe for a host of broken ribs and punctured lungs in extreme cases.
Have you ever received a full force shoulder in the chest? If you had, I don't think you'd be proposing they be allowed."
Exactly. The player's health is paramount. I think the use of the shoulder has become more dangerous as the players have become fitter, faster and stronger. I've noticed several instances over the last few years, where it was fortunate serious injury didn't occur. One incident springs to mind (I forget the match). A player running to raise the ball off the ground. As he leans and stretches out his hurl to get the ball, all his weight on his forward leg, his back leg is slightly raised of the floor, an opposition player runs at him and hits him hard with his shoulder, knocking him flying over the sideline. He had no time to anticipate or brace himself for the challenge.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2446 - 18/05/2021 12:06:39    2343037

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "Exactly. The player's health is paramount. I think the use of the shoulder has become more dangerous as the players have become fitter, faster and stronger. I've noticed several instances over the last few years, where it was fortunate serious injury didn't occur. One incident springs to mind (I forget the match). A player running to raise the ball off the ground. As he leans and stretches out his hurl to get the ball, all his weight on his forward leg, his back leg is slightly raised of the floor, an opposition player runs at him and hits him hard with his shoulder, knocking him flying over the sideline. He had no time to anticipate or brace himself for the challenge."
And there was one of them in our game against Clare on Simon Donohue he was put out over the line. Sideline to Clare. Likewise pushes in back. I think the 1st few games of every league every year the coaches including Kiely send the lads out to see what they will get away with. The refs are sent out to stamp down harder by their assessors. Come the end of the league it always settles back to normal. Will be the same again this year.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11725 - 18/05/2021 13:37:53    2343081

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "All right. Name a single sport that allows those sort of frontal charges on players who are not wearing the sort of protective equipment that you find in American Football and ice hockey. I honestly can't think of any.

And if every single other sport in the world considers it a bad idea, how could it possibly be okay in the GAA?

StoreysTash mentions broken ribs and punctured lungs, and he's right. You could be talking whiplash and concussion too. Imagine running at full speed into a full frontal challenge that's coming at full force. Think how your head and neck would snap back. Highly dangerous, and I'll repeat that it's highly irresponsible to even suggest it."
I am not talking about running full speed into someone. Your feet planted and giving the opponent a shoulder to the chest. This in these rucks rather than rapping a hand around his neck. How come in a game that is played with a stick there are some many free hands now when the ball is not been passed, caught or hit with the hurley ? I will tell you. They are been trained like this.
Incidentally are you the new sensor on suggestions. I will decide what I want to suggest not you.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2655 - 18/05/2021 14:23:21    2343100

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Replying To Canuck:  "I am not talking about running full speed into someone. Your feet planted and giving the opponent a shoulder to the chest. This in these rucks rather than rapping a hand around his neck. How come in a game that is played with a stick there are some many free hands now when the ball is not been passed, caught or hit with the hurley ? I will tell you. They are been trained like this.
Incidentally are you the new sensor on suggestions. I will decide what I want to suggest not you."
Well, now that you've clarified it a bit, I'd agree that a frontal challenge in a standing ("jockeying") position is nowhere near as dangerous as a full frontal challenge while on the move. But it's only a short step from there to somebody running into a ruck to deliver such a challenge. And then you're almost back to square one.

By the way, obviously you're free to suggest whatever you like. But I'm free to suggest that some suggestions are irresponsible. :)

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2229 - 18/05/2021 16:12:40    2343137

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Well, now that you've clarified it a bit, I'd agree that a frontal challenge in a standing ("jockeying") position is nowhere near as dangerous as a full frontal challenge while on the move. But it's only a short step from there to somebody running into a ruck to deliver such a challenge. And then you're almost back to square one.

By the way, obviously you're free to suggest whatever you like. But I'm free to suggest that some suggestions are irresponsible. :)"
Pikeman96 was always a contact sport as I am sure you know with hard hits and injuries will occur. If anyone thinks otherwise they should stick with checkers. I don't have stats but I would suggests there are way more injuries now that have nothing to do with tackling. DeBurca has had a cruciate injury twice with no one tackling him. Many others also. However is anyone screaming about these. Probably caused by trainers who want steeple chasers for players and their joints can not take it. I am sure DeBurca would prefer a good rattle of a shoulder that knocked the wind out of him rather than 9 months rehabilitating but now the shoulder on shoulder is a free.
The simulation is a horrible trend. I remember the great Tony Doran and Paddy Coady R.I.P. would leather each other but in a fight for the ball. No sneaky jab in the ribs off the ball. At times Paddy looked like a guy with a slashers but Tony never complained. He would not be caught rolling around like he was shot. They were friends also. Not saying either, the game was better then but it certainly had some better virtues.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2655 - 18/05/2021 18:49:22    2343183

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Shoulder on shoulder is neither a foul nor a free. Sometimes a referee may get it wrong and award a free if he mistakenly thinks it was instead a charge into the front or back, like you were calling for not so long ago....but a legitimate shoulder tackle is still allowed in the same way it always was.

I agree with you that simulation is a terrible trend, but introducing other legitimate hits that would give players even more reason to drop down and roll around is hardly the best way of addressing it.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2229 - 18/05/2021 20:26:53    2343206

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Shoulder on shoulder is neither a foul nor a free. Sometimes a referee may get it wrong and award a free if he mistakenly thinks it was instead a charge into the front or back, like you were calling for not so long ago....but a legitimate shoulder tackle is still allowed in the same way it always was.

I agree with you that simulation is a terrible trend, but introducing other legitimate hits that would give players even more reason to drop down and roll around is hardly the best way of addressing it."
I could be fooled recently that that a shoulder on shoulder is not a free and calling legitimate hits is not the best way either to address simulation. It also looks like many former players see it like I do. One suggesting camogie is more physical. That might be over stating it but something is obvious or the subject would be different.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2655 - 18/05/2021 20:49:47    2343213

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Do you think people are standing around a hurling field Canuck?
It takes about 2-3 steps to build up enough momentum to do some damage with a shoulder into the chest.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 18/05/2021 21:12:32    2343222

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "Do you think people are standing around a hurling field Canuck?
It takes about 2-3 steps to build up enough momentum to do some damage with a shoulder into the chest."
No I don't StoreysTash but those rucks do not generate much if any momentum. I appreciate your opinion. Mine is that I would prefer to see a good shoulder thrown (not to the head) than pulling, dragging with the free hand or wrapping around the players neck with the stick hand. We can agree to disagree.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2655 - 19/05/2021 01:59:41    2343262

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Replying To Canuck:  "No I don't StoreysTash but those rucks do not generate much if any momentum. I appreciate your opinion. Mine is that I would prefer to see a good shoulder thrown (not to the head) than pulling, dragging with the free hand or wrapping around the players neck with the stick hand. We can agree to disagree."
You simply cannot allow for shoulders into the chest for any reason Canuck.
They are a recipe for broken ribs, punctured lungs, broken teeth, and a whole host of other issues.
I think referees give too many arguable frees regarding shoulders, but to suggest allowing a shoulder into the chest would be OK is just wrong

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 19/05/2021 14:28:51    2343373

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "You simply cannot allow for shoulders into the chest for any reason Canuck.
They are a recipe for broken ribs, punctured lungs, broken teeth, and a whole host of other issues.
I think referees give too many arguable frees regarding shoulders, but to suggest allowing a shoulder into the chest would be OK is just wrong"
What concerns me is that the GAA will do nothing about it until someone gets seriously injured.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2446 - 19/05/2021 17:27:58    2343440

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "You simply cannot allow for shoulders into the chest for any reason Canuck.
They are a recipe for broken ribs, punctured lungs, broken teeth, and a whole host of other issues.
I think referees give too many arguable frees regarding shoulders, but to suggest allowing a shoulder into the chest would be OK is just wrong"
I grew up playing football in a football only club. The amount of shoulders I got that knocked me on my a-se when solo running at a defence were more frontal that side. It made you deliver the ball quicker. These modern players with all their strengthening training can't take a hit ? Our sports are turning into a wussy game with players rolling around on the ground and a preference to wrap around the neck and pulling jerseys than delivering a tackle. We love these grey areas, what ifs, and interpretations of rules. In these rucks if your free hand is not on the stick, collecting or passing the ball and any where near the opponent penalize it. That is what they did in hockey to stop the grabbing. Can some tell me what is the free hand doing near the opponent other than to foul. There is no legal play for sure.
No simple things are too difficult for the GAA. Yes there would be complaints about more frees but that would make them think twice. This is the place where I would use a sin bin bur 10 minutes is ridiculous. 3 or 4 minutes with the speed of the game now and if the same player repeats stiffer sanction.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2655 - 19/05/2021 18:39:21    2343460

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Now he's complaining about ten minutes in the bin. Thinks three minutes would be enough. Wonder has he considered the possibility that the play could be stopped for two of them, if somebody goes down injured a minute later as a result of another collision? Maybe even from one of the frontal hits that he's advocating?

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2229 - 20/05/2021 09:40:23    2343538

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Now he's complaining about ten minutes in the bin. Thinks three minutes would be enough. Wonder has he considered the possibility that the play could be stopped for two of them, if somebody goes down injured a minute later as a result of another collision? Maybe even from one of the frontal hits that he's advocating?"
Just like I said what ifs. It would be expecting too much I guess for the sin bin official to actually time four minutes of play.
O but what if there two players or three players werein it ? O my god he would need lots of stop watches ? Typical GAA make sure you dig a hole for any possible suggested solution to every problem that comes up. I don't claim to be an expert on any of this but just offering an opinion and listen to others. Those who see no problems with the status will be of the opinion nothing is required and that is their prerogative. to. So if you want to continue the conversation that is great but the minute you starting saying "Now he's" it is not about the topic anymore.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2655 - 20/05/2021 14:42:32    2343666

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I'd humbly submit that when the words that follow "now he's ....." are directly related to your latest contribution on the topic, then those words are related to the topic too. :)

Look, you've clearly got a lot of ideas, and hopefully you're not one of the hurlers/footballers on the ditch that were spoken about here a few days ago, who only ever grumble from afar and never actually do anything to try bring about the changes they think are needed.

Assuming you're a member of a club, why not consider bringing your proposals there. If they feel there's merit in them, they can pass them on to county level. And if the county also feels there's merit in them, they can pass them on up the line.

That's the appropriate way of dealing with these things. Going around in circles on an anonymous internet forum isn't.

I'm out.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2229 - 20/05/2021 15:48:46    2343692

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While going backwards is not ever feasible, if you do not look where you came from it is difficult to plan the future. In the case of hurling a branch and root look at how the game has lost some of its attributes (others gained) should be done. Modern means of researching stats would show its progress to where we are now, the path it took and contributory factors. There are probable many who are okay with the game. I am not one of them but will always love the game. A recap of my dislikes.
1. Rucks tying up play causing reduced action.
2.No tackle with pulling and dragging increase.
3. Game now a shoot out contest by free takers.
4. Uncontested play adding to the big scoring returns. An example goalie to player over the bar.
5. Block downs and hooking just about gone.
6. Throw the ball allowed instead of enforcing the rule. Separation between the ball and hand with the elbow visible moving back. We know why that does not happen because the hand would be dragged or lifted by the free hand of the opponent.
7. Short puck outs. Lets at least get the ball to the 40 meter mark.
8. Trying to gain frees or get an opponent sent off by embellishment or down right cheating.
9. The deniers. Head in the sand. Every thing is fine as long as they win. Don't change any thing. Watch closely and you will see them jumping up and down on line for the opponent to be penalized.

On the plus side the players are more athletic. The over standards of goaltenders is higher that it used to be. The whole
pageantry around the game with colours etc. are comparable with any 21st century sport. While the GAA can be criticized for some things credit with this and may be the rank and file had a hand in that also.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2655 - 21/05/2021 19:31:28    2344011

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Replying To Canuck:  "While going backwards is not ever feasible, if you do not look where you came from it is difficult to plan the future. In the case of hurling a branch and root look at how the game has lost some of its attributes (others gained) should be done. Modern means of researching stats would show its progress to where we are now, the path it took and contributory factors. There are probable many who are okay with the game. I am not one of them but will always love the game. A recap of my dislikes.
1. Rucks tying up play causing reduced action.
2.No tackle with pulling and dragging increase.
3. Game now a shoot out contest by free takers.
4. Uncontested play adding to the big scoring returns. An example goalie to player over the bar.
5. Block downs and hooking just about gone.
6. Throw the ball allowed instead of enforcing the rule. Separation between the ball and hand with the elbow visible moving back. We know why that does not happen because the hand would be dragged or lifted by the free hand of the opponent.
7. Short puck outs. Lets at least get the ball to the 40 meter mark.
8. Trying to gain frees or get an opponent sent off by embellishment or down right cheating.
9. The deniers. Head in the sand. Every thing is fine as long as they win. Don't change any thing. Watch closely and you will see them jumping up and down on line for the opponent to be penalized.

On the plus side the players are more athletic. The over standards of goaltenders is higher that it used to be. The whole
pageantry around the game with colours etc. are comparable with any 21st century sport. While the GAA can be criticized for some things credit with this and may be the rank and file had a hand in that also."
Excellent summation of most of the actual ills in the game which is making it very sanitised and just not as good to watch as before. Its calculated rather than free flowing. The win is what its all about.

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1820 - 21/05/2021 21:57:16    2344056

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Replying To carlowman:  "Excellent summation of most of the actual ills in the game which is making it very sanitised and just not as good to watch as before. Its calculated rather than free flowing. The win is what its all about."
This thread is getting drowned in rose tinted slurry at this stage. The win was always what it was all about.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11725 - 22/05/2021 08:03:34    2344108

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Replying To Viking66:  "This thread is getting drowned in rose tinted slurry at this stage. The win was always what it was all about."
Not necessarily,, maybe I am looking at the past with Rose tinted glasses on but when I first started watching hurling 22 years ago the game was played far more off the cuff, it wasn't as calculated or tactical as it is now, teams just went at it and if it wasn't good enough, we'll cest la vie, and I think it would have been more difficult to persuade players back them to dive and feign injury to get the win.
I also think players and coaches back then were far more intelligent in how they juggled their sport/life balance.
A former inter County galway hurler once said he feels sorry for todays players, and he thinks they're mad to be giving up so much for the game.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1698 - 22/05/2021 11:15:11    2344128

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2 players running for the broken ball, one falls over, free. The stop/start nature of this Galway Tipp match is really frustrating to watch. There's a good match trying to break out here but the odds are stacked against it with the whistle blowing every 30 seconds!

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 22/05/2021 14:13:29    2344160

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